45-70 VS 375HH

[Rusty~Gunn]

I wonder what percentage of JJ Hack's client's used 375's as complared to smaller caliburs that I assume they also used. I wonder what the percentage rate differences between the two groups.

It seems we read each year about people in Africa shooting DG with small calibur rifles. I thought these countries had minumum calibur laws? Why don't they respect their own laws? Why the double standard?

[JJHACK]

There is not a double standard as that phrase is meant in the USA. You must remember that not every place on earth is America.

There are laws in African countries, and there are policies. It's easier to write a policy that allows exceptions, then to change the entire law. It's not America!

As a simple example; It's illegal to hunt with any weapon that holds more then one cartridge and discharges a bullet with each pull of the trigger. Hence there are no semi auto hunting arms allowed.

However the policy is a bit different. It allows the most famous Big Game rifle ever to be used, The Double rifle, also double barrel shotgun, revolvers, etc. They are not going to change this rule, but they can issue a policy that creates a workable solution. The Policy is also easily revoked in a time of war, or uprise because it is not a law. 

There are game laws that also have additional policies to create a workable situation for the business of hunting and foreign hunters.

It's very common for people to travel abroad and automatically assume that every where else on earth has or should have the same laws, administration and enforcement as America.  It's not the case at all. America has control of America, not any other country, or how they govern or how they enforce what they choose to.

[efremtags]

kinda preachy there. If it were not for "americans", there would be no one left to travel to Africa to support your industry.

[Rusty~Gunn]

JJ... thanks for the responce. But it still is a double standard. You and other people continue to declare that the .375 is the minumum required to hunt DG yet we hear every year about others shooting DG with small calibur firearms. How are we to take this serious?

[don heath]

But- every African country is different! Where I hunt, the 9,3x62 is the legal minimum, except if a special permit is obtained from National Parks- this then permits you to use an 'under powered weapon' bow, pistol or rifle.  The permit cost US$100.If the client wishes to use an 'under powered weapon' I always insist that I get (but he pays for) the special permit.

There are many people who choose to get a 'special permit' - probably 50% of my clients - but then many are repeat clients who have already taken the game with a regular rifle and now want more of a challenge-Two years ago, every hunt was on 'special permit'- we took ele with a flint lock and bow, lion with a bow and 7x57, buff with muzzel loaders, hand guns and bows...Last year everybody used a legal rifle!

Also as JJ noted- our laws are very different from country to country-clients can use semi auto without restriction in zim and full auto firearms can be privately owned. looking at a silencer will get you five years in jail! In South Africa and Namibia, almost every sensible PH has a silencer on his rifle, but semi autos are very restricted. We classify a .45-70 as legal only for small game - up to impala and warthog! In Mozambique a .45-70 is legal for everything (but then so is a 7x57 ) In Tanzania .375 is the minimum and you had better not have a handgun on you!. In Zim a PH is expected to carry a handgun when hunting cats...

[JJHACK]

There is a general misconception about Africa and how it is laid out. There seems to be some common thought that the continent is a country and the individual named locations are it's states.

That is not the case, As an Example when asked were I operate I will say from South Africa, and the reply is very frequently Yeah but what country? There is not a clear understanding that South Africa is not just a geographic phrase, but the actual name of a country. I think while I was in school it seemed that there was about 50 plus countries on the continent. That has changed and moved around over time so I don't know the exact count now.

However everyone of these countries has it's own leader, rules, customs and laws. None are identical and most are in constant flux regarding the future they have. With that the game laws and firearm regulations are also vastly different. It's not the United states of Africa. Everyone of them is completely unique and independent from one another.

Preachy? Whatever......... I just answered the question. Take is as you wish! 

[JJHACK]

It's not a double standard Rusty,

I cannot use a lighted nock on an arrow in Washington, Oregon, Idaho. But in Texas I can. I cannot bait bears or use hounds to hunt bears and Mtn lions in Washington or Oregon, Unless a draw a special permit. But in Idaho I can. I cannot use a .22-250 to hunt Big game in Washington, but I can in Idaho. All these rules are within the USA.

Rules in the USA are state based, Rules in the continent of Africa are country based. and in some cases regulation based within the same country no different then the way it's done in the USA.

So if one regulation in Africa says 375 minimum for DG but another location says you can use smaller cartridge how is that different then Washington state having a .243 minimum for big game and Idaho having a 22 centerfire minimum?

[Rusty~Gunn]

JJ... I will not refer to it as a double standard.
Every PH I've ever read always declare the .375 min. without hesitation. Why declare the .375 as the mimumum when we know smaller caliburs have been used on DG?
Perhaps adding this to the .375 min, thing might help "... but by special permit you can use a smaller calibur in some places." and let the hunter decided which to use. Don't force them to use the .375 when they maight have a choice.

[JJHACK]

The hunter then needs to choose the country or location that meets his needs.

I'll say this, if a hunter was to deliberately decide to use a 300 mag on a buffalo He should be fully aware that the second shot from many DG PH's will come quite quickly from a minimum level cartridge.

There will not likely be an exit from a smaller gun, not all that common from a properly sized rifle. With out blood and having a herd mentality, That buffalo will be headed out of dodge in a hurry and there goes your 10,000 dollar hunt.

Stunt hunts are not that uncommon and often they are successful. It's aways up to the man with the checkbook! Lets also mention that on sites like this there are almost always comments from the folks posting that go something like this.
" I would never let my PH take a shot on my game, I would rather lose it, I would not want anyone to shoot my game unless I was about to die".   Or something to this effect. Funny thing is, in practice........ I've never had a single guy say this to me. On the other hand 100% in my career have suggested that if I feel that there is gonna be a dangerous follow up or lost game please make the shot. Not one or two but 100% every single hunter for 18 years now.

When these folks that do the stunt weapon go home they can claim whatever they want. Who's to say? Who really knows? Then the average guy here in the USA thinks it's been done before so why not let everyone do it. There are lots of skeletons in the closets of those who choose the lower powered options. But they can present the hunt anyway they please!

[Rusty~Gunn]

Using a spear might be a stunt when compared to a .30-06. Using a 30-06 might be a stunt when compared to a .375. Why does "the stunt" stop here?
Couldn't using a .375 be a stunt when compared to a .458 lott? Couldn't a using a 458 Lott be a stunt when compared to... where does "a stunt" actually stop?
Does it stop because of a law? Does it stop because of one's opinion?

It sound as if your wording of "stunt hunt' is meant to insult those who choose not to use a .375 on DG.

[JJHACK]

I've been an archery hunter my whole life and it's my very strongly preferred weapon. However it would be a stunt to use this for the big 4, Hippo, and giraffe. So if I'm using the word stunt to as a derogatory word then It's directed to me as well.

The word "stunt" as I used it refers to something less then the well accepted minimum. Don't read more or less into that. It is what it is where DG is concerned. But for those who somehow have to close their eyes at night believing they have an elephant gun in their posetion to feel good about themselves fine with me.

My first 375HH came to me beaten used and without much bluing left. I was working in SE alaska as a hunting guide for brown bears. There was about a dozen guides at that time I worked with in camp. Every one of them had a 375HH and a light Mtn rifle like a 270, or 30/06 or 300 mag. Depending upon the hunt they took one or the other. Somewhere along the lines a few guys decided that they could get by with a single rifle if it was a 338 win mag. The hype and marketing between all the guides was powerful. I knew one that wanted a new rifle and had this beater mod 70 win mag in 375HH with a 22" barrel. That was the first 375HH I ever had.

Somewhere about the mid point of the second season this guy asked me if I wanted to sell him back his 375HH. I asked why. He said the 338 just does not crumple bears like the 375HH did. He was going to sell that 338 end of the season regardless. During that season there was not a single guide packing a 338. They went from about 7-8 guides that thought it was all the rage to pack this 338, after a season and a half it went to ZERO using it and every one of them back to the 375HH.

If a fragile thin skinned lightly structured bear was too much to depend upon the 338 for a guide, how could anything less be even remotely considered for the massive heavy boned solid thick skinned heavy ungulates of Africa?

You decide, I'll take you with whatever you bring. It's your check book!

[dukkillr]

But for those who somehow have to close their eyes at night believing they have an elephant gun in their posetion to feel good about themselves fine with me.

This is the core of all of these threads, and it is what makes this such a stupid yet passionate debate.  This one's headed for being locked just like the others because someone or a few someones find their self esteme attacked by the suitability of the 45-70 for DG as suggested by african countries and a PH or two. 

[Rusty~Gunn]

For the record I didn't say anything about the 45-70 being a DG rifle. I own a .375 and don't fall a sleep fondling my 45-70 dreaming it is a DG rifle. (I actually just aquirred it a few days ago, and hadn't own one in many years)
I'm merely asking some questions about the .375 "law" that don't quite seem to be much of a solid thing at all. If those that made the law of a .375 minumum (I thought the .366 was minumum in at least one country) why don't they ALL follow it? The only thing that I can figure out it they made a policy that allows small calibur firearms to be used on occasion is simply because of the all mighty dollar. Anything can be bought or sold, and the .375 law has been sold out many times. Its almost a joke to declare the .375 min, knowing one can use a smaller calibur just as easy.

[JJHACK]

Just like 22 center fire minimum for big game in some states and .243 or 6mm minimum in other states. Why are all the state laws not the same?

How about lighted reticles in some states, not in others, Lighted nocks in some not in others. Some states restrict handguns to a FPE minimum some list the actual cartridge and bullet weights. Hounds and bait in some not in others. electronic calls in some not in others. The states have dozens if not hundreds of laws that are different across the country.

The "375" minimum which is so frequently stated was not some sportsman or recreational hunters getting together to see what would stick. It was developed by game departments across Africa with over 100 years of culling and DG experience.

[don heath]

In British Africa, the .375 (or 9,3) Minimums came about through hard experience, and the colonial governments got tired of sending coffins back to the 'motherland' with boddies of young gentlemen who failed to understand just how puny their rifles were against big game. The French independantly reached the same conclusion .

Bullets have improved considerably since those laws were drawn up, but, on average, If you choose to use something smaller than the legal minimum and have never shot a couple of that species before, I, as the PH will end up shooting your game. Those clients who come with a bow, with a ML or handgun have mostly taken lion or ele with me before, using a rifle. Most have hunted alot - The lad comming for a handgun lion with me this year has taken 11 around africa before (all with rifle) - He has also shot some 20 ele and 60-70 buff....He isn't a beginner!

In the Zim parks dept, once you had shot arround 300 elephant or buff you could use whatever rifle you wanted - most chose 7,62. Before that you had to stick to a 9,3 or Bigger. Many Officers stayed with their .458 or .375 (and I with my 9,3) even after restriction on what we could use were dropped.

So we could say...375 is the minimum unless you have alot of experience and/or a fat wallet

[mcwoodduck]

Just like 22 center fire minimum for big game in some states and .243 or 6mm minimum in other states. Why are all the state laws not the same?  

Well not everyone grows the same size deer.  
and I am guessing the same goes for Africa where Buff will differ a little as well as the other DG.

[JJHACK]

Seriously that is the reason?

Idaho Washington and Oregon have both Mule and whitetail deer. We are not talking Keys deer or coos deer here. Yet the firearm rules are very different between these three states alone!

[mcwoodduck]

I don't know.
But Couse deer, small south eastern white tail are body sized different than the Colder climates and figured that was as good of a reason as any.
But when making rules you are going to have the opinions of the people writting the rules in the rules.  I sell boilers and the different states have adopted what safety train they want to see due to what has gone wrong in the past.  So the gun rules are based on personal opinion and what has or has not worked in the past.  I also think the more complex the more likely it was done by a commitee.

[Rusty~Gunn]

Thanks JJ. I'll now move on.