CCW Ammo & Muzzle Energy?

[Henry Bowman]

Hello, I was wondering how many here choose their CCW ammo on the basis of muzzle energy?
Does muzzle energy really make a difference in a handgun with all the new generation quick expanding hollow points?
Most of the popular handgun defence loads are in the 350-550fpe range, what if you discovered a half ton load (1000fpe) for your caliber in a decent weight (I'm discarding the many 60-100gn lite weights that are only bullet shells with shot/epoxy etc)?

[.45 COLT]

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but for SD loads I use the heaviest bullet (of proper construction) available, even though it usually means giving up some foot-pounds. If I have to shoot someone, I want a hole that goes all the way through, doing as much damage as possible on the way. I'm not concerned about overpenetration. Not every shot fired is necessarily a hit, and a miss would be just as dangerous to any bystander as a bullet that "overpenetrated". I also use handloads, another sore point for some.

[JeffG]

For the most part, this is true, if you can't penetrate to vital areas of major blood rich organs, or to the central nervous sytem, brain or spinal cord, you won't stop the fight with a handgun.  In reality, the only reason you choose a handgun for a fight, is that it is the one you have handy,,, a rifle is a better choice.  Here is some reading on the subject:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

[Henry Bowman]

I've visited the site before several times.
Care to discuss "The Myth of Energy Transfer" vs Blood Shot Meat?
Energy absolutely does transfer, ask any hunter.
As the FBI document mentioned most hangun ammo rarely exceeds 1500fps, IMO somewhere in between 1600 and 2000fps depending on bullet construction tissue damage does occur do to energy transfer.
I've seen what the 180gn .44 Magnum can do on deer and humans and it definitely ain't a .43 caliber permanant wound cavity.

[JeffG]

Yes, I agree, energy MUST transfer, but not at the rate most shooters think.   I believe that what we see, is the results of the temporary wound channel.  This phenomenon ruins the "connectivity" of the live tissue.  We see it as blood shot meat.  The lab people ignore this, and measure the prmanent wound channel, which in ther opinion, is .43 caliber.  You and I cut it open on a game animal,  and see results!  
Science and the field disagree all of the time.  I like to take info from both fro my opinions, but I don't teach them as fact, only my opinions.

[Mikey]

Henry:  I base my choice of ccw ammunition on what I know works.  I carry ball ammo in my 45s because I know it works.  I carry a 200 grain round nose flat point or semi-wadcutter in both my 38s and 357s, because they work.  I found years ago that you can not trust either the bullet or the equipment (a particular model of gun) to do the job for you, it has to rest with your capabilities and the basics that work.  

This is a gnarly business, one not best left to trying it out with half a box of ammo and then left sitting in the bottom of a purse or pocket holster.  It requires constant practice and awareness.  

If I were going to change any bullet shape to better my chances of more rapidly disabling an opponent I would make a flat nose bullet out of a 45 hardball load.  In fact, I think there is one of the cowboy firms out there making a nice looking 230 grain flat nose for the 45 Schofield.  I've been thinking about getting a box and trying them out.  If I can get that flat metplat to feed in my 45s I would just bump it to mil-spec velocites and carry that if it is accurate enough for a rescue shot at 25 yds.  

I favor heavy loads that penetrate through and through rather than rely on a bullet's projected performance, which will never be at the 100% level.

Two more cents on the table from Mikey.

[Henry Bowman]

Mikey,
What advantage to you see to the large meplat on a .45acp vs say the #68 H&G 200gn SWC? Wouldn't they both cut a perfect "cookie cutter" type hole through and through at say 900-1000fps?
A bullet I've yet to try out is the dum-dum designed by Jim Cirillo the modern day NYPD gunfighter.
JeffG, what prompted my original post was some reading about the high speed and high muzzle energy cartridges like the .40 Super/10mm/.45 Super etc which all can generate velocities in the 1700-1800fps range. Hmmmmm?

[JeffG]

I intended for the reader to realize that shot placement is the most important factor in stopping a fight with a handgun.  Obsessing over 100fps or an extra grease groove in bullet design is silly, when most "pistoleros" out there can't hit the brain, upper spinal column within fighting distances.
 Handgun hunters watch deer take 45 seconds to two minutes, to be incapacitated with a perfect chest shot.  Rely on that shet to stop a felon, and that's a lot of bullets or knife edges coming your way in a fight...  The gap between long guns and handguns, even fast bullets is huge, but unexperienced shooters expect them to be the Hammer of Thor, and it just ain't so.   I have always maintained that you are already in trouble if you are fighting with a handgun.  Sorry for the long post, take a look at this...and wonder why the media is all over cops who shot an attacker an "excessive" five times.

Myth Number 3: Street Results

The Fackler-IWBA "stopping power theory" of disrupting tissues that are critical to immediate survival will usually result in the immediate death of the bad guy. According to Fackler-IWBA this is the only method that quickly and reliably stops determined homicidal attackers. If the bullet doesn’t disrupt these structures, it won’t produce the kind of wound trauma needed to unfailingly and quickly stop an assailant.

A good stop, a shooting that meets Fackler-IWBA incapacitation criteria, will most likely produce the death of the bad guy. He/she will be dead on the scene.

A failure to stop can be defined as a shooting to the body in which the attacker survived long enough to make it to a trauma center for medical treatment. Blood loss was not rapid enough to force the attacker to quickly collapse unconscious. Blood loss in the required quantity to achieve rapid incapacitation is usually fatal. (This failure to stop criteria excludes an attacker's psychological reaction to being shot or shot at. Psychological reaction includes, but is not limited to, involuntary fainting, compliance, fleeing, falling down, etc. In this context, failure to stop simply means that the injury inflicted was insufficient to compel the attacker to involuntarily collapse from physiological dysfunction.)

Therefore, real-world street results of bullets that meet Fackler-IWBA criteria are only going to tell you how successful a combatant was in achieving good shot-placement. Good shot-placement (vitals penetrated) will produce a good stop. Poor shot-placement (non-vitals penetrated only) or good shot-placement using a bullet design with poor wounding efficiency (full metal jacket or a small caliber bullet), will produce a failure to stop.

The Fackler-IWBA criteria ensures that the bullet provides you a combat capability to stop an attacker not only when conditions are most favorable (front to back shot through the sternum), but also when conditions are most unfavorable (the bullet has to penetrate several inches of non-vital tissues to reach and pass through vitals).

The requirement that a bullet must pass through vitals and will most likely produce a fatal injury is a combat capability, which should not be confused with the legal and moral issues of 'shooting to stop.' This deadly force combat capability is the only means to reliably stop an attacker, according to informed medical opinion.

Shot-placement and adequate penetration are the two primary elements of the Fackler-IWBA 'stopping power' criteria. Both are equal in importance.

In summary, the Fackler-IWBA concept of 'stopping power' requires the bullet to pass through a major blood vessel of the body, the heart, the brain or the cervical spinal cord. Permanent wound trauma to these structures disrupts the functioning of the central nervous system, either by depriving it of oxygen from rapid fatal hemorrhage or direct physical destruction of the central nervous system itself. There’s no inexplicable voodoo involved that will somehow reveal itself from 'street shooting statistics.'

A valid study of actual handgun shootings will simply tell you if the bullet perforated vitals or not, and this is independent of bullet design. It will confirm that most 'stops' are the direct result of a psychological reaction to being shot, and whether the reaction was voluntary or involuntary. Such a study can also provide feedback as to the accuracy of bullet terminal performance and wounding effects as observed in ordnance gelatin testing.


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Literature Review:

[Mikey]

Hay Henry:  That Hensley and Gibbs bullet you referenced is one of the good'uns and at the velocity you indicated it should perform as expected - that is, the cookie-cutter hole through and through.  JeffG had an extremely good point with his quote from the street results, in that the bullet has to penetrate enough to do the type of major damage necessary to stop the situation then and there.  

I believe the load you indicated with the H&G bullet at the velocity mentioned should do that if you place it right - that's where the human factor comes to play - we have to practice at it until we can do that consistently.  I think that Schofield bullet I've been thinking about would perform the same way.  

My Springer will group at 2" or less at 25 yds - if that cowboy bullet can meet that capability I would be very happy.  Hope alla this helps.  Mikey.