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Offline daddywpb

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« on: July 12, 2003, 01:20:59 AM »
Hi guys. I'm not trying to step on any toes, or insult anyone, but I was wondering about your opinions on hunting baited game. I've seen several shows on the Outdoor Channel this week with hunts for bears and hogs over baited barrels, or in the case of the hogs, it looked like someone drove down the road with a truck full of corn and just shoveled it out the back. One show had a guy kill a real big buck, and the feeder was visable in the background. I wouldn't critisize anyone for hunting this way, but for me it would take the "chase" aspect out of it, and would present an ethical problem. They know for a fact that those animals are going to come to the bait sooner or later - it's just a matter of waiting. Doesn't that take away the "hunting" part. It's more like bear shooting than bear hunting. Looking forward to some opinions.

Offline eroyd

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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2003, 06:53:35 AM »
Baiting is illegal in British Columbia. Fortunately, in at least the areas I've hunted it is unecessary for success. I could see in other area's with flat terrain and heavy brush it might be the only way to go to get a decent shot. I don't think baiting is as sure a thing or as easy as some may assume.

Offline Cabin4

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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2003, 09:46:29 AM »
I don't have any issue with it. Baiting is a hunting practice that predates modern man. So in this respect, its certainly not new.

To me, whats the dif if you have positioned yourself in a stand over an open meadow full of natural clover and grasses or a field that you planted ?

In the case of baiting for bears, hogs and deer, this baiting goes on over a long period of time. In some cases, outfitters are baiting from the begining of  August thru September for bear in Maine. Hunting does not start until Aug 25 and many more bears are being fed than shot. Thus assuring more bears make it to den with a full belly and living to next spring. The same is true for other forms of baiting, it's also feediing.

Although one can question the fair chase ethics, there is a lot of good that comes out of baiting and in some cases it may be the only realistic possibility of culling the number of animals that the game commision needs taken out.
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Offline longwinters

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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2003, 05:00:34 PM »
I think there was another post on this, a rather lengthy one if I remember.  I can take it or leave it.  But if a human puts it in the ground and then hunts over it (in any form) it is baiting.  Dont let the politically correct change the facts to fit their purpose.  Whether in pile form or food plot . . . it is all baiting. :D
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Offline Darrell Davis

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2003, 01:40:15 PM »
:D Hey there hunters,

As to bear baiting, I don't know what it is like in other places but even with a good bear population here in Ol'I -dee-ho, bear baiting is NOT a give me. If it was I would have my rug and been there and done that.

As it is, the only part of the process I have been there and done that on, is the baiting.

The man that taught me, gone three years ago Sept. and I miss him still, was usually a bit picky about location and how it was set up. It is more then just getting a bear to come in, it also needs to come in when you are there.

Wrong location and the good ones may only come through at night. Make to many trips to the site at the wrong times and again the only vists you may have are at night.

Did get the chance to watch a cub one time, but didn't even see mama as she was busy back in the brush having a fit because the cub was at the bait. Guess she knew a fair amount more then Jr.

At the same site Stan had a bear walk below him at a distance of about six feet. Stan liked his stands low. It was a big male, but he thought it was a sow he had seen and it was tooooooo late when he discovered his mistake.

Anyway, time is also an important factor and sometimes lots of it. But even then the other factors must all be in place.

BUT, one of the best reasons I can think of FOR baiting is the fact that it gives you time to check out the critter, before you shoot, which just seems to me a good way to lessen the chances of making the mistake of taking a sow with a cub.

If we are going to make that mistake, let be with wolves!

Keep em coming! :wink:
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Offline IronKnees

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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2003, 04:15:07 AM »
I have no problems with it, given it's done properly. In fact, if you live in an area like I do (Indiana) and want to go, say, on a black bear hunt but only have a few days, baiting is a help in having a successful hunt. However, like someone else said, baiting is not a "giveme" by any stretch, and you still have to use your "hunting" skills... Just IMHO
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Offline Darrell Davis

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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2003, 11:04:05 AM »
:D Hi there Ironknees,

T I M E !   Yep, that is what it can take a lot of. Have not tryed the baiting thing since my friend/hunting partner/mentor died, and time is one of the major factors.

So, if as has been said, time is a factor, a good outfitter who has already put in the extra hours might just be worth his price. That is of course, if I had his price, which I don't.

Had the chance, 10 to 15 minutes +/-, to take a NICE black. The wife said shoot, but we were out looking for her once in a life time I-dee-ho moose and I didn't want to mess up a possible chance for her.

Was fun to watch that critter and maybe I'll get another chance some time. There is that word again.

One of the "problems" of living here, to hunt or not to hunt - to fish or not to fish - if so, which one and for how long. Didn't draw a cow tag this year and am thinking that just maybe I won't buy the bull tag. L O T S  of steelhead headed this way so may (?) spend a bit more time in that direction. After all, might see that bear while out filling my TWO deer tags.

Keep em coming! :wink:
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Offline Ron T.

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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2003, 03:58:49 PM »
I believe "baiting" any game animal so that it comes to you rather than you "hunting" it in a "fair chase" situation is wrong.  That's why it's called "hunting"... not "shooting".

If others wish to do it, that's "on" them.  As for me, I would not consider shooting a game animal over "bait" that was specifically set out to draw the game animals to me.  That is not even close to "fair chase" in my thinking.


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Offline Darrell Davis

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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2003, 06:45:35 PM »
:D Hey there Ron T,

Fair chase, yes for the most part I agree. However, like the blacky the wife and I watched that day, most black bears taken are an opportunity thing with very little if any chase involved.

I do not know how much of a "give me" a baited bear is that is set up by an outfitter, but take my word for it there will more then likely be plenty of "chase" involved if you do it yourself.  P L U S the possible added and important benefits IF you finally see a critter of #1. picking your trophy (to shoot or not to shoot) because of time and/or closeness  #2. picking your shot placement and  #3. maybe the most important being able to have time etc. to make sure you are not taking a sow with cubs.

I think we have a trade off here, and the point I am trying to make is that all baiting IS NOT what many/most  people think it is. If it was, I would have taken a number of bears by this time.

I can see the area where I have hunted from my yard and can drive there in 10 - 15 minutes. Seeing bear sign is no real problem, but can't say the same for the creator of the sign even with a good population of the critters available. In short, been there and done that here in Ol'I-dee-ho.

keep em coming! :wink:
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Offline Ron T.

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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2003, 08:40:17 AM »
Darrell…

If others want to hunt over bait and don’t have an ethical problem with it, then… as I said before, “That’s on them”.  But I shall never agree that doing so is “right” or that doing so is ethical.

Above all else, true sportsmen/hunters are or should be highly ethical.  “Fair chase” is, after all, primarily a question of “ETHICS” which are brought into the mix when one decides what constitutes “fair chase”.

There are rare cases when I would condone “baiting”.   Such a case would be if the hunter was physically UNABLE to take part in a normal “fair chase” hunt due disease, ill health or old age.

If a hunter hunts over bait because that hunter is lazy and simply doesn’t want to make the physical effort to hunt the game using “fair chase” methods… or if that hunter makes the DECISION to not allot the amount of time NECESSARY to use “fair chase” hunting methods, then that hunter is refusing to make the sacrifices all ethical sportsmen/hunters must make when they decide to go hunting.

To me, the ACT of using a game animal’s hunger to entice that game animal within shooting range is repugnant and unethical IF the food is placed there expressly for the purpose of enticing the game animal into shooting range.  I have no problem with a sportsman enticing wild animals into CAMERA range or VIEWING range using any method they please… as long as no one shoots at the animal.

Some “hunters” try to make logical arguments (aka “excuses”) for making things easier for themselves.  They “short-cut” everything in their lives for their own convenience or for their ease of accomplishing the task rather than putting in the sweat and toil necessary to give “fair chase” to the game animals they hunt.

“Baiting” is not the same as setting up a deer stand near a field of growing crops when those crops were planted and intended by the crop’s owner for the market place… and I see no comparison between the above and purposely putting attractive food products in a specific place for the sole purpose of enticing game to come to the hunter as opposed to the hunter going into the forest to hunt, find and collect the game using ethical “fair chase” methods.

What it boils down to is a matter of one’s ETHICS.  It’s as simple as that.


Ron T.
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Online Graybeard

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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2003, 08:57:58 AM »
For the life of me I can see no ethical difference between hunting over a feeder or bait pile and a food plot or natural food source like an oak dropping white oak acorns. In either instance you are seeing in wait for game to come to food. That's been an accepted way of taking game for as long as man has been eating wild animals I suspect. Now if you are looking for a trophy that might take a bit of the "trophy" feeling out of it but if you are hunting to put the game on the table why would it matter?

Dunno just me I guess but if you hunt over food it seems as fair for it to be a bait pile or feeder as to be a food plot or oak flat which almost everyone agrees is OK.

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Offline longwinters

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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2003, 11:11:00 AM »
Ron, do you hunt with any lure?  How about scent? Rattlin horns? Decoys? These all trick deer by using their natural instincts against them.  I am not totally in disagreement with you . . . only questioning how far do you go?  Would you fertilize a mast tree/s for better and more acorns?  Do you participate in deer drives?  Would you shoot a deer in its bed . . . sleeping? Just wonderin.  Do you use anything besides fang and claw to kill a deer?  What is "ethical"?  My problem is when other people try to impose their value system on mine concerning hunting.  Again, I do not totally disagree with you but I was wondering why we draw the lines in the sand that we do?
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Offline jhm

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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2003, 11:54:03 AM »
I have just quit trying to respond to the baiting issue it is a yes or no position you either can do it or you cant I can live with someone who dont use bait and say that they are not for it but you can bet that they are usually the first person to buy the newest hot shot rifle in the kill out of sight caliber to give themself a edge over the game and any other hunter in the woods, their is nothing to the fair chase argument that will hold water when you go into the woods YOU are in their yard and the deer have all the advantage, if the state says it is legal then it is legal period, I will use food plots and the guest on my property are all aware of it and all that have had the oppertunity of a invite to hunt here were all vary satisfied with the sarounding conditions, but it isnt a walk out there and throw a handful of corn on the ground and hope you see game building food plots setting up a dozen feeders and all the other work goes into it yes I am LAZY thats why I spend more time in the woods than most of the ones that want to complain about someone doing all that work on the land that they own and pay taxes on say as to have a quality place to hunt and be away from the ones who complain about it.  With reguards to all. :D    JIM

Offline Ron T.

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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2003, 10:39:32 PM »
At this point, I should have followed my first instinct and not posted on this question… but now that  I have, I will make this final post and then, not defend my position any further.

Daddywpb ask us for our “opinions”… and that’s what I gave him.  I didn’t want to “step on anyone’s toes” either, but the subject lends itself to controversy and strong feelings.

I started out by saying that this was MY “feeling” about baiting.  I’m certainly NOT trying to make others conform to my feelings, but I also certainly have a right to have my own “feelings” about the question.  I am giving my “opinion”, as requested.  

I have expressed my "VALUES" as concerns "baiting"… I never said anyone or everyone must share those values.  However, this subject is a “hot button” with me… and I tend to go further and say more than I should in expressing my feelings about baiting just as I do about my other two "hot buttons"... the sexual molestation of children and wife-beating.

To me, we hunters ALREADY have a big advantage over the deer, bear, elk, moose or whatever game we hunt… we have nice, warm, comfortable living quarters in sleep in.  We have wonderfully nutritious, hot food to fill our bellies and give us strength.  We have rifles that can reach out and kill the animal well beyond our reach.  We don’t have to out-run and catch them, then pull them down and use our teeth or hands to kill them.  We can simply aim our rifle and even at long ranges when they are not aware we've even "there", we can kill them if we choose to kill them.

On the other hand, the deer’s sense-of-smell and hearing are MUCH better than ours… and their eyesight isn’t all that bad either, but if we don’t move, they don’t see us… a big disadvantage for them because a hunter can sit very quietly in the woods and, unless the wind changes, the deer can and do walk up to within just a few yards of the immobile hunter and never realize the hunter is there.

I’ve had both bucks and doe deer walk or feed within 30 feet of me as I sat, motionless, in the woods leaning up against a tree watching them.  I’ve even experimented with sounds and arm or body movements to see how the deer would react once I determined I didn’t wish to shoot the deer standing, feeding or walking nearby.

As careful, successful hunters, we wear clothing that doesn’t make noise in the woods… clothing that tends to make us “blend in”.  My own top, outside hunting clothing is bright orange, as required by law, but it has dark “cammo” patterns in the bright orange to break up the outline of my upper body.  I wear "cammo", water-resistant "bottoms" that blend in with the natural surroundings.

Regarding the use of "bait", I probably should have said, “How you do it is up to you as long as you obey ALL the game laws, but don’t ask me to approve of how you do it even if it’s legal.”… and left it at that.

Butttttt… I didn’t, so here is a little insight into my feelings that may help you to understand why I feel as I do.

If you own land and pay the taxes on that land, or even if you hunt on public land… you can do anything the game laws allow… and if you wish to use bait or plant crops which are attractive to deer strictly for the PURPOSE of attracting deer to your rifle, then more power to you if that’s what you WANT to do and you feel it's ethical to do it.  Just don’t ask me to agree that doing so constitutes "fair chase".

I hunt with a classic Model 99 Savage lever-action rifle manufactured in 1953 in .300 Savage caliber.  The rifle was designed over 100 years ago… the cartridge was designed over 80 years ago.  As you can see, it’s not a “whiz-bang, shoot ‘em beyond the horizon magnum”… and it’s certainly not “the newest hot shot rifle” available.  The .300 Savage is a little less powerful than a .308 Winchester, but it’s all the “rifle” I need since I limit my shots to 250 yards or less… and on only slowly walking or standing deer.  

A hunter has the responsibility to make a quick, clean kill and not allow the animal to suffer.  Therefore,. I won’t shoot at a running deer unless I’ve just “jumped” it and it is very close (less than 25 yards) and I have an “open” shot at it… there’s just too much chance of only wounding it otherwise.

I don’t use scents or scent-killers, rattling horns, decoys or anything else on deer to attract them to me.  I have never shot a deer that was asleep in his “bed” nor would I, but I would shoot a deer in his bed that was wide awake and watching me if I had the opportunity.

When I hunt deer, I take my rifle and my handloaded ammo and go hunt deer… either by stalking very slowly and quietly (aka “still-hunting”) through the woods, stopping often and using the binoculars to scan ahead and to the side… and by finding a good tree to sit against that overlooks multiple, heavily-traveled deer trails that I might sit at for up to an hour (aka “taking a stand”).  Then, if I get bored or cold or if there's no "action"… or if the mood strikes me, I’ll get my fanny up and “still-hunt” some more.

I don’t use tree stands because I'm not as agile as I once was... and, at my age... closer to "70" than to "65", I find tree stands HARD to use & EASY to fall out of.  But... I'm not "against" a hunter using a tree stand.  I don't feel using a tree stand is "unfair" or not consistent with "fair chase".

After all, if you're in a tree stand, you are NOT "artifically" causing the deer to come to you.   You are merely using your intelligence to out-wit your quarry.  To me, this falls under the same category as being a good tracker, a quiet stalker and an excellent rifleman.

Have I seen a lot of deer using "still-hunting" and sitting on deer stands?  Yes… usually I see at least 2 to 4 deer a day where I hunt in the Moshannon State Forest in north/central Pennsylvania.

Will I see as many deer as I would probably see hunting over bait?  No… probably not.  But most of us hunt for the pleasure of the hunt and the camaraderie of being with our loved ones & friends.

I’ve found this “system” works for me.  I’ve been known to go out before dawn in 6 inches of new snow when the temperatures were hovering around “zero” degrees… and at those temperatures, you have to do some still-hunting to keep your toes from freezing.  You’ll also find at those temperatures, the woods is very quiet and still… and, yet, it's also exciting.

Why?  Because I ALWAYS expect to see deer, but you have to go VERY slow & know where to look... and WHAT to look FOR!  At those temperatures, the deer are staying in their beds as much as they can.  Unlike us, they’re too smart to get up and walk around in the woods at THOSE temperatures!    :-)

I’ve found most hunters “still-hunt” FAR too fast and too carelessly.  You can’t be in a “hurry” when you still-hunt.  You can make SOME “noise” in the woods because deer make noise in the woods... as do all creatures that move in a woods, but they make noises that are DIFFERENT than the noises a human makes… unless the human SLOWS DOWN and stops sounding like a biped (two legged).

Naturally, I wash my hunting clothes, but only in plain water… no soap or scent-killing agents… and I try to stay out of the campfire smoke.  None of the animals we hunt light fires… and they don’t stand in the smoke, either. I avoid anyone who is smoking as well… that’s a dead give-away a human is nearby.

I have participated in a few deer drives because that is one method of hunting deer, but I would not fertilize an oak tree to make the acorns grow.

I agree with Longwinter who wrote (above), “But if a human puts it in the ground and then hunts over it (in any form) it is baiting.  Don’t let the politically correct change the facts to fit their purpose. Whether in pile form or food plot . . . it is all baiting.”

To Longwinter’s remark, I would add, “If it was put in the ground as a cash crop to later harvest and sell in the marketplace, then that’s NOT baiting because it wasn’t placed there to draw game to the hunter’s gun”.


Strength & Honor…

Ron T.
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Offline Darrell Davis

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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2003, 11:40:00 AM »
:D Hello there folks,

I also feel I have clearly expressed my feelings on this subject, and will conclude my following of this line of thought with the following story.

I heard this story in Oregon where I grew up about 45 years ago. It goes something like this.

Seems a hunter returned from a successful hunt declaring he had finally shot a "legal" deer. According to the story he was making his way through the woods when he came upon a doe and buck doing their part to assure the next years fawn crop. At that point he made the choice to interrupt the doings and shoot the buck.

Ask why he was declaring this to be his first legal buck, he began to state all the game rules which said it was illegal to shoot a deer on the way to or from bedding areas, on the way to or from watering or feeding areas etc. etc. etc.

As we all know, those times are just about all the time in a deer's life with the possible exception of when they are trying to make a retreat from a preditor (man or animal).

SO-----------------If it is illegal/unethical to shoot a critter during said times, I think the hunter in that long ago store just may have had a valid point!  

Keep em coming! :wink:
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Offline jhm

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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2003, 04:27:44 PM »
Corn is up, beans are up, the peas are shinning, life is good. :D   JIM

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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2003, 04:31:08 AM »
However, this subject is a “hot button” with me… and I tend to go further and say more than I should in expressing my feelings about baiting just as I do about my other two "hot buttons"... the sexual molestation of children and wife-beating.

Ouch RonT!    What a comparison you've made here.

300 Savage, shoot 250 yds?  Bit of a contradictin there in your lengthy last reply.  Happy hunting.
markc
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Offline Cabin4

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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2003, 05:47:52 AM »
Quote from: longwinters
I think there was another post on this, a rather lengthy one if I remember.  I can take it or leave it.  But if a human puts it in the ground and then hunts over it (in any form) it is baiting.  Dont let the politically correct change the facts to fit their purpose.  Whether in pile form or food plot . . . it is all baiting. :D


I'm ok with calling it all baiting and never differed the 2 in my post. I just stated that theres nothing wrong with it or any form of it. However, I will say this. Planting a field of clover in a deer managment process or baiting for bear is to me more ethical than not doing it. You are giving back far more than you take and that is good for the hunters and the game.
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Offline Ron T.

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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2003, 03:41:11 AM »
Markc…

What “contradiction”???

I’m sure you’ve heard of “point-blank range”, haven’t you?  The term refers to the maximum range a bullet can be fired at a target and the bullet never rises or falls more than 3 inches above or below the shooter’s line-of-sight all the way to that target.

For most hunting situations, this “range” indicates the effective range for a particular rifle/cartridge that does NOT require the shooter to use any “hold under” or “hold-over” to compensate for bullet's rise or drop on it's way to the target… I.E., the shooter can hold “dead on” the point-of-aim on the target and know the bullet will arrive within 3 inches of that point of aim.

Since big game animals have a fairly large area designated as the “kill zone”, a bullet strike within ± 3 inches of the point of aim which should be well within the kill zone and will normally produce a humane one-shot-kill.

Here’s the “numbers” my ballistic program gives on my chronographed handloads firing a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullet (average MV = 2675 fps) with a ballistic coefficient of .435 through my Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage caliber that indicates that it is, in fact, a “260 yard rifle”.

As you can see, I understated my rifle’s point-blank-range by 10 yards for simplicity:
50   yards = +1.25 inches
100 yards = +2.70 inches
130 yards = +2.91 inches (maximum above the line of sight range)
150 yards = +2.75 inches
200 yards = +1.25 inches
223 yards =  ± 0.00
250 yards =  -1.93 inches
260 yards =  -2.78 inches (maximum point-blank range)
300 yards =  -6.90 inches

Frankly, I fail to see any “contradiction” in the above numbers.  I stated my Model 99 in .300 Savage was a 250 yard rifle... and the above numbers indicate it is as I stated.  I’d appreciate it if you would be so kind as to point out any “contradiction” for me.


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Ron T.
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Offline dakotashooter2

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Baiting
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2003, 09:29:53 AM »
I personally cannot bring myself to "bait" game animals. It just does not fit into my person image of fair chase. Seems everyone has a different opinion of what baiting is. I my eyes baiting is using food as enticement to draw game to a very SPECIFIC point or area. Feeders, salt or mineral licks and small (10 acre or less) food plots fit that definition for me or in any instance when the hunter has control of when the food source is distributed or used. Feeders can be set up for distribution a specific times, mineral licks are portable and small food plots do not allow game as much freedom to come and go where they want and are generally strategically placed. I do not apply agricultural fields to this same category because placement is not an option (though crop is), most are large enough to allow game to enter at some point without imediate subjection to a hunter and the crop or residue of is generally available year round. I have similar feelings about "hand fed" bucks. Kinda like a woman with implants looks great but it just ain't the same as the real (natural) thing. But to each his own.  I might be wrong but I don't think baited deer qualify under fair chase in the record book.
Just another worthless opinion!!

Offline X-man

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Baiting
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2003, 02:50:23 PM »
Here in Newfoundland, baiting is essentially a non-issue. We don't have any whitetail/mule deer, so that isn't a problem. Caribou are almost impossible to bait (but you can attract them by waving a white plastic shopping bag back and forth). Moose, who could afford to, I guess our version of food plots is when they raid my buddies farm and get into his cabbage or turnip fields or my Christmas Tree farm. You can't imagine just how much damage an adult moose can do in a night's feeding.

Now we do have monster black bears, but most residents don't bother hunting them exclusively. Mostly it is in conjunction with a moose/caribou license. If they see one they'll shoot it, but they aren't really looking specifically for a bear. You are allowed to bait, but this isn't a guarantee that you're going to be successful. There is lots of food for our bears and they can afford to be picky. Most successful baiting stations take a couple of weeks to establish and get bears visiting regularly. That is why outfitters have good success with them. Regular guys, simply don't have the time or funds to spend a couple of weeks in the bush baiting, and then a week or two hunting. I've hunted over baits and it can be tough work! You have bogs/mashes, barrens, lichen covered rocks that all make for hard walking, especially carring five gallon buckets of bait, plus rifle and gear. Then you have the weather to contend with. A fall hunt can bring with it some nasty, cold, damp weather. Sitting on your butt in a tree stand(when you can find a tree big enough to set one up in) or ground blind can get really old, really quick. The bear has all the advantages. You get one here, you darn well earned it.
"...Only accurate rifles are interesting."

                 - Colonel Townsend Whelen