Author Topic: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment  (Read 1083 times)

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Offline ms

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Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« on: March 20, 2008, 04:18:38 AM »
 



Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment Is Systematically Destroyed
DC handgun ban case poses grave threat to constitutional rights
   

 
 
 
 
 
 

 Comments made by justices in an ongoing landmark case, which seeks to address the very meaning of the second amendment, have been heralded as a "victory" for the individual right to bear arms, but in reality the second amendment is being completely eroded altogether.

Individual Right to Bear Arms Wins Favor in Court Argument, the headline from the New York Law Journal, was typical of the media output yesterday after most of the nine Supreme Court justices hinted that the right to bear arms is a "general right."

However, the case is likely to conclude with the introduction of several new regulations on hand gun ownership at the very least, and, if the government gets its way, a total ban on handguns.

The outcome will set the precedent for gun laws nationwide.

The NY Law Journal writes:

Justice Kennedy's comments appeared to spell trouble for efforts by the District of Columbia to revive its strict handgun ban, although lawyers for both the Bush administration and gun-rights advocates acknowledged that some lesser regulation of the right would be acceptable.

Counting Justice Kennedy, it appeared that five or more justices were ready to recognize some form of an individual right to keep and bear arms that is only loosely tethered, if at all, to the functioning of militias. What kind of regulation of that individual right will be allowed by those justices is uncertain.

[...]

When the arguments were over, gun-control advocates seemed less pessimistic than before the session began, though they did not predict victory.

Joshua Horwitz, director of the Education Fund to Stop Gun Violence, who filed a brief in the case and watched the arguments, conceded he cannot count five votes for a strictly militia-rights view of the Second Amendment that would allow for almost unlimited regulation of firearms. But he could conceive of five justices adopting an individual-rights view that will mean "a lot of regulations will be OK. The outcome is not necessarily poor for us."

(Article continues below)


The case, DC v. Heller, stems from proceedings filed by lawyers for security guard Mr Dick Anthony Heller, which state that the District's categorical restrictions are so broad that they cannot comply with the Second Amendment's protection of the right to bear arms.

An amicus curiae brief filed by U.S Solicitor General Paul D. Clement, on behalf of the Bush administration and the government, says that federal gun control measures should not be limited and proposes that a court may determine that a full scale ban on almost all self-defense firearms may be upheld as constitutional if it constitutes a “reasonable” restriction of constitutional rights.

Lawyer Alan Gura, opposing the law and representing Mr Heller said "We have here a ban on all guns for all people in all homes at all times in the nation's capital."

Read the transcript of yesterday's argument.

Read briefs in D.C. v. Heller.

Advocates of the ban and the representatives of the District of Columbia have attempted to argue that the history and context of the second amendment applies to the rights of militias and not to individuals.

However, there are thousands of quotes from the founding fathers that pour water on this weak argument. The founders said over and over that when a government seeks to take away individual weapons it constitutes tyranny and that government must be removed.

Here are a few choice quotes:

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
--- Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;
---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.

[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws.
---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)

Furthermore, even if you argue that the second amendment applies to militias, the very definition of the militia, according to the founders and their contemporaries, is THE PEOPLE:

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

Last month a majority of the Senate and more than half of the members of the House issued a brief in which they urged the Supreme Court to uphold it's previous ruling that the District's handgun ban violates the second amendment.

The brief asked the Supreme Court to uphold the lower courts decision and allow the precedent of applying a stricter standard of review for gun control cases to stand.

In a separate letter, other representatives, including Congressman Ron Paul, called for the Clement/Bush administration brief to be withdrawn as it sets a precedent for further erosion of individuals’ Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms.

Citing Constitutional concerns the letter stated:

“If the Supreme Court finds that the D.C. gun ban is a “reasonable” limitation of Second Amendment rights, the Court could create a dangerous precedent for the nation in the future. Such a decision could open the door to further regulation on American citizens’ Second Amendment rights on a large scale.”

Essentially the government is saying "You have the right to bear arms, unless we say so."

Where there is individual ownership of weapons there is liberty, where there is not there is tyranny because powerful organizations and governments will have a monopoly on it. The latest developments in this case are not a "victory" for the second amendment, on the contrary, they constitute its very undoing.

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Offline rex6666

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 05:51:24 AM »
Well does all that mean it is over, or just some more reading and second guessing.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 06:31:17 AM »
The Justices haven't rendered their decision yet.  So far it is just a wild guess as to which way they will go.  I'm waiting for the final decision.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2008, 06:48:14 AM »
Anyone know when that final decision is to take place?
If Guns cause crime, then mine are defective...Ted Nugent

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2008, 06:50:11 AM »
Anyone know when that final decision is to take place?
Junish

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2008, 07:30:54 AM »
I am excited too, but keep in mind, "it ain't over till it's over."  

It looks favorable for gun owners at this point, however, when dealing with the high courts you can never predict the outcome until it is announced.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2008, 01:00:18 PM »
If this case would have taken place a few years ago, with O'Connor and the like, it would have been a tough battle. But with who Bush nominated and got in, I think it has a very good chance of coming out in our favor. (fingers crossed till June)  gypsyman
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Offline Leatherstocking

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2008, 04:24:12 PM »
Yeah, if this panel of judges doesn't uphold the second amendment, there will never be another that will.
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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 02:31:52 AM »
I read the oral arguments......but only once.....and really need to read them a couple of more times in order to understand them as completely as my simple mind will allow.....

I would have argued it differently......but, hey....what do I know.......???

The Virginia constitution was mentioned as one model, so was Blackstone, as a basis for our framing fathers.....

Most, if not all the quotes listed above, were not mentioned in the argument.  Had I been arguing it I would have made reference to such quotes....

That said, I'm no Lawyer........lets hope the legal minds know what they're doing......
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Chilachuck

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 05:15:59 AM »
This question will never be put to rest. Even back in the 1800's, and maybe before, there were people attempting to ban firearms.

Never drop your guard, neither stupidity nor lust for power sleep.

Offline deltecs

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2008, 08:04:15 AM »
I've researched and read every amicus brief filed and the transcript of the oral arguments 3 times.  From my perspective, it seems that the justices are leaning toward the individuals right to firearms, however with an eye toward some "reasonable" standard on limitations.   This thinking bothers me, as these same justices have ruled on cases involving individual rights with an absolute "strict scrutiny" regarding limitations.  For example, burning the flag in protest, search and seizure on evidence not legally obtained cannot be evidence in criminal court cases, media members silent as to sources due freedom of speech, and many others.  The only limitations permitted on these rights, have to be proved to be a effective in providing public safety.  Yet, from the judges questions, it seems that since machine guns are outlawed and regulated, a hand gun ban in a high crime city could meet the "keep and bear arms" constitutional review.  However, this bothers me as government could then say firearms which shoot multiple rounds could be banned.  Then it could be rifles, due the extra range poses a danger, then it could be shotguns, due the scatter effect which could injure bystanders; which brings us back to the original weapons in use at the time of signing the Constitution, as being the only FIREARMS that meet Constitutional review.  So, in effect, government still could limit and restrict our right to firearms possession and carry on a city, state, and federal level.  I'm hopeful of the decision, but can see potentially disastrous effects on firearms owners, if a reasonable application review meets Constitutional standards by government.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

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Offline Chilachuck

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2008, 08:58:20 AM »
"Reasonable gun control" generally means "more restrictions".

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2008, 12:51:56 PM »
I've researched and read every amicus brief filed and the transcript of the oral arguments 3 times.  From my perspective, it seems that the justices are leaning toward the individuals right to firearms, however with an eye toward some "reasonable" standard on limitations.   This thinking bothers me, as these same justices have ruled on cases involving individual rights with an absolute "strict scrutiny" regarding limitations.  For example, burning the flag in protest, search and seizure on evidence not legally obtained cannot be evidence in criminal court cases, media members silent as to sources due freedom of speech, and many others.  The only limitations permitted on these rights, have to be proved to be a effective in providing public safety.  Yet, from the judges questions, it seems that since machine guns are outlawed and regulated, a hand gun ban in a high crime city could meet the "keep and bear arms" constitutional review.  However, this bothers me as government could then say firearms which shoot multiple rounds could be banned.  Then it could be rifles, due the extra range poses a danger, then it could be shotguns, due the scatter effect which could injure bystanders; which brings us back to the original weapons in use at the time of signing the Constitution, as being the only FIREARMS that meet Constitutional review.  So, in effect, government still could limit and restrict our right to firearms possession and carry on a city, state, and federal level.  I'm hopeful of the decision, but can see potentially disastrous effects on firearms owners, if a reasonable application review meets Constitutional standards by government.
You hit on the language I would expect them to use.  Strict scrutiny.  Of course we're all just guessing, but my guess is a SS test, like other individual rights in the BOR.  I would be extremely surprised if they denounce a standard that upholds the DC ban and I would be extremely surprised if they invalidate the federal ban on Class 3 weapons. 

Offline ironglow

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2008, 01:26:59 PM »
That is why it is important to be sure to vote for a presidential candidate that will appoint "strict constructionist" judges to the Supreme Court.
  Where would our gun rights be today, if instead of Roberts, Thomas, Scalia & Alito...we would have had four Clinton appointees, liberals like
  those on the "ninth circus court" ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline deltecs

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2008, 06:00:05 PM »
IG, This is why we have to focus our attention on local, State and especially the Representatives in Congress.  Any change in Congress that does not support individual rights with the "strict scrutiny" standard application that is removed from office, is a strong deterrent to any policy decisions by the President.  Cindy Sheehan and media ink persuaded the public in mass against Iraq.  The same tactic can and should be used to enforce our power as voters, in favor on the independent firearms ownership, keep and carry.  The reasonable standard of Constitutional review as used by lessor authoritative government can be used against them, but only if we stand united.   One of those untied principles is to vote against those candidates that have not openly stated their position on this critical issue.  NEITHER OBAAMA OR CLINTON SUPPORTED THE AMICUS BRIEF IN FAVOR OF INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS TO OWN FIREARMS, YET MCCAIN DID.  I'm not saying that any of the front runners are pro firearms, what I am saying is that those Senators or antis need replaced to insure constructionist legal interpretation.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2008, 06:16:22 PM »
3 will get you 5 that the nine smartest legal minds will not interpret "shall not be infringed" as you cant make any rules against this, the way it was meant by the founding fathers. subject to "reasonable restrictions" will be the finding with no definition of "reasonable" so any anti gun politician can claim whatever they want to do  as "reasonable" and here we go again with more law suits and court actions to sort it out. By the way if they do decide that government cant infringe on the right what are all those folks at the N.R.A. and the bureau of alcohol, tax ,firearms and explosives going to do for a job?
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Offline magooch

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 04:03:42 AM »
No matter what the Supreme Court rules--if they rule anything--the anti-gun gang will never give up, so the NRA and other such groups will always have plenty to do.  We'll always be just one mass murderer away from losing our right to keep and bear.  If the Dumbycrats get enough control, we're in for a mighty rough time.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 04:24:49 AM »
Deltecs;
   Right you are; all candidates should be scrutinized for a "strict constructionist" attitude towards our Constitution .Goofballs like Cindy Sheehan work from the bottom up.
  What else can we expect from a "bottom feeder".

  Torpedo:
  Anyone not in the strict constructionist camp is not encouraging..but I will vote for the one closest to it.

  Magooch;
   The fat lady has not yet sung..so we still have to wait and hope..but as you said, even if it goes the right way, the " nanny-state ninnies " won't give up !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 04:31:48 AM »
Magooch said it right! There will never be a "Victory'. Not as long a people like Kennedy and Feinstein pander to the cowards and folks that want to be taken care of.  As long as there is money to be made by screaming to a bunch of fools that if guns were done away with, we'd start huggin' and kissin' on one another and the pols wouldn't bring a jackboot down on our necks so fast our eyes would bulge. There will never be a time when you can shut out the world and go to your reloading bench or rifle range and feel safe from the gun grabbers.
So what you need to do is start watching what they're teaching your kids in school. Watch what they're teaching your kids on TV.  

Offline deltecs

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 05:08:51 AM »
Magooch said it right! There will never be a "Victory'. Not as long a people like Kennedy and Feinstein pander to the cowards and folks that want to be taken care of.  As long as there is money to be made by screaming to a bunch of fools that if guns were done away with, we'd start huggin' and kissin' on one another and the pols wouldn't bring a jackboot down on our necks so fast our eyes would bulge. There will never be a time when you can shut out the world and go to your reloading bench or rifle range and feel safe from the gun grabbers.
So what you need to do is start watching what they're teaching your kids in school. Watch what they're teaching your kids on TV.  

Agreed, especially on a local level.  School teachers are predominantly anti firearms in general with very liberal leaning philosophies.  We need to watch ourselves too, by becoming involved when anti gun proponents spout their spiel, with pro gun rebuttal by whatever means.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline Chilachuck

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Re: Media Declares "Victory" For Gun Rights As Second Amendment
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2008, 05:10:06 AM »
Beemanbeme, you sure have that right, especially the part about what kids are watching on TV.

Back many years ago, I mentioned wanting to go deer hunting around a girl my own age. She actually started to say "But, Bambi...".

As well done as the Disney shows were, they are uniformly anti hunting, anti fishing, anti firearms, and anti law and order. (Consider all the pirate movies Disney made and how the pirates are all lovable under the scary mask.) Disney did more damage to the US than any other US citizen I can think of.