Author Topic: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger  (Read 9569 times)

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Offline AtlLaw

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375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« on: March 21, 2008, 05:19:35 AM »
I've been reading a thread over in the African Hunting forum about the 45/70 vs. the 375 H&H.  Some really interesting and thought provoking stuff came out of that discussion.  The last post by JJ got me thinking about the ol' H&H and then by association (in my mind anyway) the new Ruger.  It seems to me that a lot of these "new" cartridges are touted as the best thing since canned beer when they don't really do anything much differently (or at all) than an older cartridge, except be in a shorter case.  Case (pun intended) in point, the 338 Federal vs. my beloved 338/06.

Now, I have never hunted in Africa and, unfortunately, I'm sure I never will.  So this is strictly an academic, albeit interesting, discussion for me.  It may even spur me into buying another rifle I don't need!  Here are my viewpoints on the subject.

It seems the Ruger's claim to fame is that it is shorter but will match or exceed the H&H's ballistics.  The later "benefit" must not be very important or the even more powerful 375's would have already de-throned the H&H.  So that leaves the "shortness" as the Ruger's real claimed advantage.  Personally, I have never had a problem with short stroking a bolt gun and, when working an action, never notice the length difference in short, standard and magnum lengths.  So, to me, the action length is a non-issue.

What about the design of the case itself?  I've always heard that the tapered shape and gently sloping shoulder of the H&H make for smooth and reliable feeding through the action.

So, gentle readers, if you were going to buy a 375 caliber rifle, which would it be, Ruger or H&H, and why?  That Ruger Hawkeye African looks pretty nice to me!  And a friend wants to sell me his Sako H&H!  But this is about cartridges, not rifles!
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Offline Florida Jim

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 08:22:31 AM »
I went with the .375 H&H for the following reasons:
Tradition
availability of loading data
availability of brass, components, loaded ammo
"The .30-06 is never a mistake"~Townsend Whelen~

Offline curtism1234

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 11:09:41 AM »
I think the 375 ruger is here to stay because it can be chambered in a long action gun.

I know you don't want to talk about guns, but I think this is important because Howa is selling the rifle or barreled action for about the same cost as their guns (within 50 bucks I think).

So your options are pretty much a bulky 375hh for 1500 dollars, a bulky 375ruger for about the same cost, OR a standard 7.5 pound 600 dollar 375ruger.

For people hunting moose, big bear, etc in North America - I would have to think they may buy this round over a 338.

So I think because of it's price tag and rifle availability, I have to pick the 375ruger

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 04:22:31 AM »
The Ruger, no question.

Ruger in .375 Ruger African, MSRP $1139, overall length 43-3/4”
Ruger in .375 H&H, MSRP $2334, overall length 44”

OK, with the H&H you get to pay an extra $995 at MSRP for the privilege of carrying an extra 2-1/4 pounds.

I reload and would buy the .375 Ruger.  Plan to, in fact, although I might go with the Alaskan which lops 3” off the length. 

It won’t matter to me if the Ruger matches or exceeds the H&H or not, although it should.  The difference, if any, will be very slight either way.

This cartridge is going to be a winner and since its introduction I’ve claimed the .375 Ruger case will be “the case” for new cartridge introductions and wildcats for the next few years if not decades.  We already have two in a shortened format, the .300 and .338 RCM.

The major advantage the Ruger has over the H&H is the platform – any manufacturer of a .30 Win Mag can chamber for the .375 Ruger with little or no redesign effort.  (Open up the bolt face a hair if needed and perhaps (unlikely) change the magazine follower.)  Expect to see Savage, CZ, Howa and others chambering for this cartridge.

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Offline efremtags

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 06:54:13 AM »
The 375 Ruger's advantage comes from the design co-ordination between Hornady and Ruger. As an overall package, they provide a rifle that will deliver HH ballistics in a trimmer lighter rifle. This is due to both loading powder combinations and the design of a shorter rifle with a lighter action. The ruger duplicates HH ballistics in a 22" barallel vs a 26".

If you use hornady heavy mag ammo, the 375HH becomes ballisticly the same or slightly better, but in a longer rifle with a longer action.

For people used to toting 270 - 30-06 class rifles, the 375 makes sense as it will feel and act similar to what you are used to.

375 Hornady ammo is definitely more affordable, but you are limited to 3 loadings. Hornady has traditionally gone after resurrecting or improving classic designs, and has been very successful with this business model,  so I believe they will support this ammo for a long time, so there is little advantage in reloading compared to HH as well.

Offline RaySendero

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 06:57:45 AM »
I've have my eye on a 375 for sometime!

I reload - so the 375 Ruger looks like an option.  But... the 375 H&H (possibly reamed to 375 Wby) is the standard all around African rifle I'm using to compare.  So far haven't decided.
    Ray

Offline deltecs

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 07:26:24 AM »
From what info I have, the Ruger .375 case is approximately 7 gr more case volume.  Since the body of the case is larger than the .375 H&H, the primer ignites more powder area for more complete burn in the short time frame of ignition.  This would result in achieving .375 H&H ballistics from the short case using shorter barrels.  Without using Hornadys loading technique and special powders, the .375 Ruger should get similar ballistics results by handloaders.  I don't think any game anywhere in the world could tell the difference.  The market aspect and rifle chosen to chamber these rounds, will be the driving factor as to its success and choice.
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Offline handirifle

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 08:27:41 PM »
One question you asked, and I believe it's true.  I do believe the H&H case will feed smoother than the Ruger and hopefully that never becomes a critical problem for someone.  Most companies seem to be offering the Ruger in a controlled round feed gun, so it may never surface as a problem.

I have never shot either caliber, and on a long stalk that extra 2 lbs plus, could add up, but it would also soften the recoil a bit too.

As coyote hunter stated, the exra $1000 will make a big difference too.

I too think it will be very popular, at least as popular as the H&H, in my opinion anyway, due simply that every gun maker out there can now make one for little, if any, added cost.  All they need is a barrel with a bigger hole in it.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 03:56:17 AM »
  I've never been to Africa, but i have hunted DG with the H&H...

  I'd buy the H&H, as the Ruger is just trying to do what the H&H has already been doing, well been doing for a long long time...

  As for comparing prices of the two guns, Ruger isn't the only show in town, so there's many more choises in the H&H.  And as for ammo out in the bush villages, your chances of finding H&H ammo is pretty good, as for the Ruger, don't waste your time looking too hard...  (In Alaska, you will find .338 Win. Mag. even easier)

  The H&H is a proven system that works, so i have no need to start over with something that "performance wise on game", at best, will only be as good.

  DM

Offline handirifle

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2008, 05:32:47 AM »
(In Alaska, you will find .338 Win. Mag. even easier)

  DM

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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2008, 06:08:12 AM »
 I've never been to Africa, but i have hunted DG with the H&H...

  I'd buy the H&H, as the Ruger is just trying to do what the H&H has already been doing, well been doing for a long long time...

The effectiveness of .375” bullets at H&H velocities is well understood.  If the .375 Ruger required a Magnum action and weighed a couple pounds more, I’d agree with you.   Like you, I’ve never hunted Africa and likely never will.  What I do hunt is the mountains of Colorado and the extra two pounds of an H&H is something I can do without.

Let’s face it – the H&H was originally designed to use long extruded sticks of cordite for a propellant.  The Ruger has about 6% more case capacity than a .375 Ruger and gets H&H performance from rifles that can be made shorter and lighter than can an H&H.  Further, for handloaders, it does it in a case without an anachronistic belt and with dimensions that reduce case stretching.  The changes are evolutionary rather than revolutionary but they are, to many people, welcome changes that are long overdue.

Quote
 As for comparing prices of the two guns, Ruger isn't the only show in town, so there's many more choises in the H&H.  And as for ammo out in the bush villages, your chances of finding H&H ammo is pretty good, as for the Ruger, don't waste your time looking too hard...  (In Alaska, you will find .338 Win. Mag. even easier)

You are correct, Ruger is not the only game in town but it is, as far as I know, the only current apples-to-apples comparison with regard to the action.  In any case the market will sort itself out and economies of scale should result in .375 Rugers, based on a .30-06 length action, should sell for less than magnum-length .375 H&H rifles.  For example there is no reason a Stevens rifle in .375 Ruger should cost more than the same rifle in .30-06.

As far as ammo availability you are also correct.  This is the same situation as with every new cartridge, regardless of their merits.   It is also a problem that tends to resolve itself over time.  Further, there are time-proven ways to mitigate the problem such as sending ammo to the final destination ahead of time, traveling with ammo split between pieces of luggage, etc.  This is a situation handloaders find themselves dealing with all the time.

Quote
 The H&H is a proven system that works, so i have no need to start over with something that "performance wise on game", at best, will only be as good.

  DM

The H&H ballistics do indeed work which is exactly why many people have already chosen the .375 Ruger over the H&H and many others will do the same – H&H ballistics but in a modern package.  Others will choose the H&H for sentimental reasons, some for availability of ammo in the far reaches,  and a relatively few for a perceived edge (probably more theoretical than practical) the H&H provides in terms of smooth, reliable feeding.  

For 99% of what they are actually used for in North America, the .375 Ruger offers practical advantages in size and weight no .375 H&H I’ve seen can match.

For myself, if going for a long ‘magnum length’ action, I’d grab a Remington .375 Ultra Mag before I’d get a .375 H&H.  A lot of other  people have been making that choice, too.
 
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2008, 11:31:16 AM »
  I'm always amazed that's there's actually folks out there that can't figure out how to get a short/light rifle in a given cartridge.  I've seen pleny of H&H's that had shorter/lighter bbls...  Same with .338-06's...

  The H&H works just fine with modern powders, at least all of the ones i've owned and loaded ammo for have...  Where do folks get these idea's that it doesn't?

  I guess it's a good thing Ruger came along, as all those H&H's would have been in the junk pile untill someone made cordite again...

  DM

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2008, 04:13:04 PM »
Drilling Man –

If someone wants a short, light .375 they can certainly build a custom .375 H&H – I’m not aware of any manufacturer that has ever offered such a rifle.  Or they can buy a factory .375 Ruger, which is the route most folks will take.

Also, my point was not that the .375 H&H didn’t work well with modern powders, which would be a ridiculous assertion and easily disproven.  Rather my my point was that the use of Cordite helped drive the case design.  What we have today is a case designed for Cordite being used with modern powders.  The long case still works well but, like the belt, is no longer necessary.

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Offline Curt Dawson

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2008, 08:12:10 AM »
I have a 375 built on a 1917 Enfield action with a 25" light varmit taper Shaw barrel with 4x Leupold scope.Is it heavy ?Yes.Does it shoot?Five rounds of WW 300 gr.silvertips  at 100yds. off the bench into 3/4".The H&H ammo is much more available and I can get reloads from Bitterroot Valley Ammo for less then $20.00 a box.They group right around the inch mark.I like the idea of the ruger round but I do not think that it will take away from the almost 100 year track record of the H&H.

Offline Barstooler

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2008, 09:05:43 AM »
Doesn't this thread really belong in the Big Bore forum??

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Offline deltecs

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 10:52:54 AM »
Yes, it should be in the big bore topic forum.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline jro45

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 11:54:33 AM »
The 375 H&H was killing all those big game long before the 375 Ruger came along. It the 375 H&H will continue killing big game for a long time to come.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2008, 09:49:55 AM »
The 375 H&H was killing all those big game long before the 375 Ruger came along. It the 375 H&H will continue killing big game for a long time to come.

True enough.  Nevertheless, make my .375 a Ruger.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 10:11:08 AM »
The 375 H&H was killing all those big game long before the 375 Ruger came along. It the 375 H&H will continue killing big game for a long time to come.

I agree with you in principal. I'm not a big fan of all these re-up calibers. However, I think a valid question to ask is: If you were in the market to buy a .375, what would you buy? 375 HH or the 375 Ruger? I would buy the Ruger. If I already had a 375 HH I would not get rid of it for 375 Ruger.

This I think is a helpful way to frame-up the question.
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Offline RaySendero

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2008, 07:05:11 AM »
I have a 375 built on a 1917 Enfield action with a 25" light varmit taper Shaw barrel with 4x Leupold scope.Is it heavy ?Yes.Does it shoot?Five rounds of WW 300 gr.silvertips  at 100yds. off the bench into 3/4".The H&H ammo is much more available and I can get reloads from Bitterroot Valley Ammo for less then $20.00 a box.They group right around the inch mark.I like the idea of the ruger round but I do not think that it will take away from the almost 100 year track record of the H&H.

Curt,

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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2008, 02:22:45 AM »
I have a Sako that was made in 1960, it is chambered in 375 H&H, there is no way I would replace it with a 375 Ruger.
Does the 375 Ruger have a place, sure it does, but not in my gun safe. Hard to replace a classic.
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2008, 12:09:06 PM »
Sorry.... I fail to see the difference.  I use a Rem700 BDL SS w a 2x7 leupold VXII scope in 375HH.  Factory stock, R3 pad, timney trigger. Weighs 8lbs scoped and loaded.  I don't think there's any real difference in the cartridge. BUT....were I to travel to the hinterland, I'd rather the H&H basd on ammo availability.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2008, 03:56:56 AM »
Sorry.... I fail to see the difference.  I use a Rem700 BDL SS w a 2x7 leupold VXII scope in 375HH.  Factory stock, R3 pad, timney trigger. Weighs 8lbs scoped and loaded.  I don't think there's any real difference in the cartridge. BUT....were I to travel to the hinterland, I'd rather the H&H basd on ammo availability.

  I agree...  The H&H will be around forever, no matter how many other 375's the company's push out to sell there rifles.  I'd be willing to bet H&H ammo will always be easier to get in "out of the way" places too.

  DM

Offline deltecs

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2008, 11:28:18 AM »
To me the choice between the Ruger .375 and the H&H is so similar to the debate between the .308 Win and 30-06.  Both are nearly the same with ballistics using the same bullets.  Both use different length actions.  Both have their supporters and preferences.  The arguments and differences are the same ones used in the late 50's, when the .308 Win was made commercially.  I think the choice of the Ruger vs the H&H will be a matter of preference based upon the RIFLES CHAMBERED FOR THEM AS COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE.  If the Ruger rifle continues it's favor with sportsman and others chamber for this round, then the .375 Ruger cartridge will be around for a long time.  No, it will not replace the H&H, just as the .308 Win did not replace the 30-06, but some sales of both of these rounds were and will be reduced.  In Alaska, hunting big bruins in dense underbrush, I prefer the Ruger .375 Alaskan over the H&H.  If I were to take DG in Africa, I would prefer the .375 H&H.  Both have their merits under different hunting conditions. 
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Offline DanP

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 03:35:42 PM »
In the Ruger line, the rifle they chamber .375 Ruger in can be manufactured and offered much cheaper than their M77 RSM that their .375H&H, .416 Rigby, and .458 Lott are offered in.  This makes the argument a *little* different from the .308 win vs. .30-06 argument.  PLUS, in a longer barrel, the .375 Ruger may outperform the H&H!

Dan

Offline deltecs

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2008, 04:21:32 PM »
Both cartridges chambered in a 700 Rem or CZ550 would cost the same, so ballistics comparison between the .308 Win and 30-06 apply with the exception that the .375 Ruger case has a larger capacity by a few grains.  A better comparison would be between the .284 Win and .280 Rem.  Both cases have almost identical case capacity and use different length actions at the same price.  Like I posted before, the popularity will be due the type of rifles commercially chambered in both rounds that will determine if the .375 Ruger remains to a ripe old age.  I don't have a preference between them except for the hunting areas and ammo availability for the game intended.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline six_gunz

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 09:52:57 PM »
My choice is the .375 H&H, I currently have two. I wanted a cartridge that has been proven over time with available ammo. Nothing against the .375 Ruger, but as stated already, it's hard to replace a classic.

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Offline GrassLakeRon

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2008, 03:01:35 PM »
Holland and Holland, Just as it has been for over 100 years.  Proven medicine for all of your BIG game.

Tradition.  Plain and simple.


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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2008, 08:28:02 PM »
Don't forget the .376 Steyr... It's shorter than the .375 Ruger and averages 2550 fps out of my 20in barreled Steyr Pro Hunter with factory Hornady rounds.  It's light too... mine came in a less than 7.5 pounds empty and scopeless...  it's supposed to be a 50K psi round...


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Offline deltecs

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Re: 375 H&H vs. 375 Ruger
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2008, 02:18:35 PM »
The problem with the .376 Steyr is that it is a propietary round and only chambered in Steyr rifles.  The base is mid way between magnum rounds and 06 base size, thus rendering it not as good as either the H&H or Ruger for rechambers.   Not only does the bolt face need alteration, but also the magazine feeds.  The .376 is a near ballistic twin to either round and I don't any game anywhere could tell the difference between it and the others.  It is the case design and the rifles chambered for these rounds that make them desirable.  The H&H is only desirable because it was one of the first modern smokeless rounds and has been around for over 100 years.  The venerable 9.3x64 is comparable ballitically to it and has been around for almost as long, yet is relatively unknown in the US.  It too has an odd base diameter compared to the case design of modern rounds.  It was almost obsolete until European gun makers started loading ammo for it.  This case is much like the Steyr in design and capacity.  It was only a matter of time before some manufacturer started making rimless cases without the belt with the same diameter base.  Ruger finally did it for ballistics comparabe to the grand old H&H.  If I were an H&H, I'd take that as a compliment.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

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