Hard cast vs Jacketed bullets

[Jim n Iowa]

I am interested in hunting with hard ast bullets in 44spec / 44mag. what does one use as a guide for reloading. They must not be the same as jacketed, or are they?
Jim

[HBL]

I have found that you can use the same load data for the same weight bullet for hard cast, heat treated bullets.

The velocities you will see will be a few hundred fps faster for the same weight bullet.

Example: I can push a 300gr hard cast heat treated bullet at a higher velocity than I can push a 260gr jacketed bullet.

My bullets that weigh out at 315 grains, chronographed at 1875fps. The 260gr jacketed bullets don't get near that

[talon]

HBL, could you please explain the concept in your first two sentences a little bit better. What I think you are saying is that hard cast heat treated bullets are just as good, if not better than jacketed bullets as far as velocity maximazation is concerned. You didn't mention gas checks, or 'tinning' of the barrel which have a little impact on this subject, let alone stability of the lead alloy matrix at speeds over 1800fps.

[HBL]

With heat treated WW metal, you can take a 240gr cast GC bullet, load it with the same charge, as indicated in the manuals, as a jacketed bullet with the same weight and get higher velocities, with less pressure.

Of course this will only stand if the bullet is properly fitted to the bore.

Sorry about the confusion, I was rushed out of the house and was trying to get my thoughts out too fast. It didn't make sense to me either when I went back and reread it when I got back.

As far as stability, the 315 gr LBT LFN I use, has gone through 12" Mesquite trees and 15" creosote posts with very little deformation. I don't really care if these do not expand. The wound channel is larger than most hunting calibers with jacket bullets, on deer size game.

I'm not sure what you mean by "tinning of the barrel". I am not familiar with that term. But, as far a leading, there is little to none when using the heat treated GC bullets, when properly sized to the bore of a particular firearm.

[talon]

In leading you have a mere scraping of lead off into the groves and larger fissures of the barrel's interior. Low temperture friction will cause this. Grease/wax on the bullet's exterior reduces this a bit. When you fire an alloy containing tin at very high velocities (1800fps for instance), heat from the powder as well as friction can cause tinning: an actual fusion of the lead/tin INTO the steel of the barrel. This is  difficult to remove even chemically.  A gas check would help prevent this by reducing gas cutting, but at speeds over 2000fps, the bullet itself can become fluid at the nose and sides: tinning occurs.  In a sence, the harder a lead allow bullet is, the lower it's melting point becomes. One of the reasons jackets are used is to prevent leading and tinning.  Too, pistol jackets cover very soft lead, and this permits controlled expansion, sometimes up to as much as 1.8 caliber. This helps leave the bullet's energy in the animal where it does the most good; a bullet that goes thru the body is only giving partial service.  But, I'm going to have to look into this business of a heat treated hard cast pistol bullet doing what you say as compared to a jacketed one. This upsets years for my testing and understanding.

[Robert]

There are many folks that really prefer heavy hard-cast to jackets.  Especially for deer. A heavy round-nose or flat bullet has PLENTY of knock-down power without expansion, and an exit wound bleeds out ten times faster than an entry wound and is a lot easier to track.  You have a lot more blood and the animal dosent go as far.  I like both, especially for rifle, both styles have their virtues and uses, you can certainly push jackets a lot faster for flat trajectory and longer range.

[Mike C]

I have shot cast bullets into a swimming pool so I could recover and examine them.  On some of the bullet bases I marked with a magic marker and on the recovered bullets the ink was still there, also some bullet bases that had I purposely left bullet lube on still had the lube visible after recovery.     From this I don't think the "heat" of burning powder is that much a factor.  The loads mentioned were 454, a 305 gr. bullet over 33 gr of H-110.

The extreme leading you can get with a plain base cast bullet at high pressure is mostly caused by the bullet base plasticly deforming (obturating) from the pressure and causing friction between the expanding bullet base in the bore beyond the film strength of the lubricant.  This friction is where the heat comes from.  At pressure above 45K psi you need  linotype or harder with a gas check to withstand the pressure without deformation.

Also I have shot cast bullets to near 3000fps and they apparently did not melt  because they were close to minute of angle accurate.  Pure lead saboted bullets are regularly shot out of muzzle loaders at 2000 fps.  Pure lead does start to melt at  above 2250fps from heat generated from air friction, I have observed this in the Savage 10-ML using smokeless powder where I can push them to 2600+ but  they are disintegrating when they are in flight , this can be seen by the spray of lead that hits the target.

Mike C

[Lloyd Smale]

it has been shown that alot of the apperant knock down power a gun has is simply the cold air getting inside of the animal. When cold air hits the chest cavity a dear goes down. Thats why game seems to drop more often in cold winter climates then it does in warmer weather. A good cast bullet puts a hole all the way through both sides of an animal and lets alot of air in. That is one of the reasons that cast bullets seem to kill so well. Keeping a bullet inside of an animal doesnt do much. Shocking power is very much overated. If you want a demo. Hang a 100lb sand bag from a rope and shoot it with a 300weatherby and see how little it actually moves if any. To me a bullet still inside of an animal is a bullet that did half of its job!

In leading you have a mere scraping of lead off into the groves and larger fissures of the barrel's interior. Low temperture friction will cause this. Grease/wax on the bullet's exterior reduces this a bit. When you fire an alloy containing tin at very high velocities (1800fps for instance), heat from the powder as well as friction can cause tinning: an actual fusion of the lead/tin INTO the steel of the barrel. This is  difficult to remove even chemically.  A gas check would help prevent this by reducing gas cutting, but at speeds over 2000fps, the bullet itself can become fluid at the nose and sides: tinning occurs.  In a sence, the harder a lead allow bullet is, the lower it's melting point becomes. One of the reasons jackets are used is to prevent leading and tinning.  Too, pistol jackets cover very soft lead, and this permits controlled expansion, sometimes up to as much as 1.8 caliber. This helps leave the bullet's energy in the animal where it does the most good; a bullet that goes thru the body is only giving partial service.  But, I'm going to have to look into this business of a heat treated hard cast pistol bullet doing what you say as compared to a jacketed one. This upsets years for my testing and understanding.

[jhalcott]

I have experimented with cast ,gas checked bullets in the 30-06 .I got velocities near 3000 fps with MOA accuracy. Yes I noted the "comet effect" of the bullet starting to melt from air friction. Accuracy fell off rapidly beyond 150 yards.
   In a .44 mag SBH I have used wheel weight  for the loads with great success. Linotype is harder than neccessary for deer sized game at REASONABLE distances.I have used it because I had a ton of it on hand.
Linotype is lighter than lead or wheel weight or LYMAN #2 alloy. I even tried a mix of aluminum and zinc that is used to galvalume metal . I cast these slugs at work,so don't ask for the formula. It will ruin your molds!
  jacketed slugs are USUALLY easier to get accuracy from , but reasonable ( minute of deer)accuracy is not too much harder to get using bullets of moderate weight and hardness.A good lube and a gas check will go a long way in this regard. A 240/250 grain cast from wheel weight lead  started at 1200 fps will kill any deer in the country. If it is put in the right place.!
  Buy a cast bullet loading manual and start practicing till you can hit a paper plate EVERY time at 100 yards.Try to hit some gallon jugs full of saw dust,sand and water to see what effect your bullets have on impact. jh :wink:

[talon]

I like the concept of "hiting the deer in the right place" best!!! beats all the other components of 'what it takes to get your game'. Being from Northern Minnesota, our deer season often coensides with 20 and 30o below tempertaures.  I've never noticed this slowing any gut shot deer down much. What kills chest shot deer is the inability to draw air into the lungs once the vacuum is lost by the hole in the chest. Then agan, I only use jacketed bullets, which I make. Have tried Hard Cast in the past, and do use them  in range work, but at lower velocities than mentioned in this thread. Yes, they kill deer if well placed. But, so do jacketed ones, and I'm more comfortable with jacketed. I am not going down that road of "knock down power". Studies galore exist that prove and disprove both sides of that subject. It depends upon what your point is. For instance, shooting a bag of sand... ever hear of hydrostatic shock? Put water (or blood and fat) in that bag and tell me there's no difference between a 'pass-thru' and a bullet that rapidly expands and stays within. But, getting back to Jim's question: Can he use specs for jacketed bullets to load his hard cast: HBL said "yes, and that Jim would find his cast bullets traveling faster than the jacketed ones at lower pressures". I said I'd have to study that observation more thouroughly myself.  My side comment about the bullet expanding (hopefully not exiting) to leave as much of it's energy in the amimal comes from many years of experience on various large, and even dangerous, game.  It WORKS for me. I felt it relivent to the discussion of shooting hard cast bullets that tend not to mushroom and to depart only some of their energy. Some folks believe that's not necessary. It may not be... if you like tracking a dead deer for a few hundred yards, or if your back up gunner on griz is shooting jacketed core bonded blue tips.

[Lloyd Smale]

the article that I quoted from did say that the cold air must be in the chest cavity. No hit to the guts is likely to drop an animal no matter what your shooting. If I was into gun shooting then I guess Id prefer a explosive bullet that would really tear them up. But with a handgun even jacketed bullets when they expand (if they expand) Dont create that much more damage. Some of the biggest exit holes I have observed on dear and bear I have shot with a handgun came from cast bullets. Granted I havent used many of the new generation jacketed bullets. About the only thing I use jacketed bullets for anymore is cleaning lead out of barrels. Alot of very knowlegable people have convinced me that cast is the way to go in a handgun. Among the John Linebaugh and Elmer Keith and if its good enough for Elmer its good enough for me! At the linebaugh seminar there was a old guy Dalton Carl that has killed more bear then any 10 people in the US he did it for a living and ask him what he prefers. There was also a African hunter there. He has even taken Elephant with a handgun. His gun of choise was a .475 linebaugh. I have killed dear and bear with both jacketd and cast bullets and would take a good hard cast bullet anyday over any jacketed bullet. Just my opionion though and what would the world be without different opinions.

I have experimented with cast ,gas checked bullets in the 30-06 .I got velocities near 3000 fps with MOA accuracy. Yes I noted the "comet effect" of the bullet starting to melt from air friction. Accuracy fell off rapidly beyond 150 yards.
   In a .44 mag SBH I have used wheel weight  for the loads with great success. Linotype is harder than neccessary for deer sized game at REASONABLE distances.I have used it because I had a ton of it on hand.
Linotype is lighter than lead or wheel weight or LYMAN #2 alloy. I even tried a mix of aluminum and zinc that is used to galvalume metal . I cast these slugs at work,so don't ask for the formula. It will ruin your molds!
  jacketed slugs are USUALLY easier to get accuracy from , but reasonable ( minute of deer)accuracy is not too much harder to get using bullets of moderate weight and hardness.A good lube and a gas check will go a long way in this regard. A 240/250 grain cast from wheel weight lead  started at 1200 fps will kill any deer in the country. If it is put in the right place.!
  Buy a cast bullet loading manual and start practicing till you can hit a paper plate EVERY time at 100 yards.Try to hit some gallon jugs full of saw dust,sand and water to see what effect your bullets have on impact. jh :wink:

[jhalcott]

The filling of the jugs was supposed to read "A MIX OF SAND,SAWDUST AND WATER" This will demonstrate the hydraulic effect mentioned by a previous poster. If you stack several of these in a row, you might even catch your bullet to see any expansion of the slug. Try this with both jacketed and cast bullets and note the differences of the results. The # of jugs penetrated and blown up by each type. It might surprise you.  jh :wink: