Author Topic: 45 colt shotshells (Read 3863 times)

burch · « **on:** March 23, 2008, 10:45:12 AM »

I`ve been having a little fun with 45 colt shotshells. I`ve heard you can convert a 444 Marlin casing to work in a 45 colt for shotshells. Anyone know how to do this ?

Burch

KN · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2008, 12:49:41 PM »

I use the Speer 45 cal shot capsules for mine. KN

Sweetwater · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2008, 07:16:59 PM »

KN +1 - I've used the Speer shot capsules in my 45Colt as well as in my 357Mag. They work fine.

A note in my journal from an article by Elmer Keith on the subject of birdshot in revolver cases involved using gas checks as a 'powder wad' and 'shot cup'. I was using a 41mag (which has no Speer shot capsules available) and found Elmer's method very effective on Ruffed Grouse. I've undoubtedly taken more birds with that combination than I ever have with a shotgun. The recipe and procedure for the 41mag and 44Spec, according to Elmer, was 3 grains of Bullseye, followed by a gascheck placed upside down (to hold the powder in place and serve as a base for the shot), followed by as much shot as the remaining case will hold - this will take a little experimenting), followed by another gascheck, again upside down to form a 'cover' which can be crimped into place. I've used from 3gr to 6gr of 700x with 160gr of #4shot. The heavier load was more effective and none have any real pressure in them. I prefer the larger shot, but you may want to go smaller - choices are all yours. I will see if there is something written on the 45Colt. As to using cut-off 444 cases - I've not seen it done, but if the case heads and rims are equivalent, don't know why it wouldn't work and it would effectively hold more shot. A gas check would cover the powder, or a fiber wad for that matter, and I've read where some use parafin to seal the open end. Suggest weighing the shot and researching starting loads with that "weight" lead bullet and fairly quick powders. Too much pressure will probably blow the patterns and not enough will not put any punch in it.
I put 5.5gr of Unique with a full Speer capsule of #71/2 shot in my 357mag that worked very well.
Just something to chew on.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2008, 07:40:56 PM »

Burch- Just found this on the Beartooth Bullet website regarding using 444Marlin cases. Hope it helps.

"Brass 410 case should load about like the .444 cases I often use to make cylinder length .45Colt shot loads. Good place to start is with 4.5gr.of Unique, card wad right on top of the powder, fiber wad, 210gr. of shot (that's a tad less than 1/2 oz), and a thin over shot wad glued in place.

Work up from that starting load...are looking for the best patterns at whatever velocity will put shot through both sides of a soup can...kind of a rough estimate of power, but that is the minimum required.

For use in the .45colt revolver, will size the 444 cases fully in a .45colt die. Then strip out the bullet seating stem and size them full cases in the .45colt seating die. The crimping shoulder will slightly bottle neck the brass...and the forward part will now fit in the chamber mouth. Mark what hangs out at the cylinder's end, and cut it back a little SHORTER than that."

Looks like an interesting concept to me that I may have to try.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2008, 11:18:55 AM »

Quote from: Sweetwater on March 25, 2008, 07:40:56 PM

Burch- Just found this on the Beartooth Bullet website regarding using 444Marlin cases. Hope it helps.

"Brass 410 case should load about like the .444 cases I often use to make cylinder length .45Colt shot loads. Good place to start is with 4.5gr.of Unique, card wad right on top of the powder, fiber wad, 210gr. of shot (that's a tad less than 1/2 oz), and a thin over shot wad glued in place.

Work up from that starting load...are looking for the best patterns at whatever velocity will put shot through both sides of a soup can...kind of a rough estimate of power, but that is the minimum required.

For use in the .45colt revolver, will size the 444 cases fully in a .45colt die. Then strip out the bullet seating stem and size them full cases in the .45colt seating die. The crimping shoulder will slightly bottle neck the brass...and the forward part will now fit in the chamber mouth. Mark what hangs out at the cylinder's end, and cut it back a little SHORTER than that."

Looks like an interesting concept to me that I may have to try.

Regards,
Sweetwater

AWSOME

burch · « **Reply #5 on:** March 26, 2008, 01:42:04 PM »

Hey Sweetwater,
I tried the 45colt dies and they are too big for the casings. I`m wondering if they must be fire formed first. I have 444 casings that have been resized and deprimed with a 444 die. I also tried to find the article at Beartooth`s web site with no luck. Can you point me in the right direction please.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2008, 09:36:57 PM »

Burch-
I've just spent the last two hours trying to track down what I found last night by accident. Go figure! Anyway, it's way late and I do have to work tomorrow, but I'll try again tomorrow night and see what I can find. Last night I just put 45 colt shotshell in the google search and voila that 'beartooth' site article was among the first few websites listed. Tonight, it doesn't even come up and I went on the beartooth site and it's nowhere to be found. Lesson learned is 'write down pathways of searched stuff that I might want to find again. Sorry about all this, but I will give it a go again.
Question - why are you not using Speer capsules?

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2008, 11:05:46 AM »

Yea, I tried the same searches and no luck. I can`t believe their isn`t any info on this, i`ve heard about it a few times. The reason I don`t use the Speer capsules is because I love the challenge of something different and i`ve heard the last couple rounds in the cylinder tend to move out of crimp freezing up the rotation of the cylinder. I would imagine you probably have to get them just right in order to get a good crimp, if you have too much crimp they`ll break. I`m sure they work fine if you work out the bugs but it`s a whole lot funner doin` it the other way. I`m willing to bet a nickle the 444 casings have to be fire formed.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2008, 12:29:42 PM »

If you must, look up Top Brass on the web. They manufacture new brass cases. They offer a .45 Colt BLANK case that is longer than standard and should work fine for your project. In terms of practical performance, after the Speer shot capsules, every other approach is just an also ran. Out of a standard revolver, custom cases, card wads, etc. seldom perform appreciably better than the gas checks and a plain Colt cases I've always used in .45s.

Personally, I have never had a problem with capsules creeping their crimp in my .44's.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2008, 09:25:00 AM »

Burch- Sorry I wasn't better prepared with the followup for that article on Beartooth. I simply cannot find it. Lesson learned.

In support of what has been posted; I've never had crimp creep on any of the speer capsules - ever. I used a bunch of them in my 357mag years ago with the load I posted the other day. In my 45Colt, I have some factory loaded speer capsules, but haven't used them yet. In my 41mag, I had to go the gas check route and they worked like a charm. I've used several hundred of them without a hitch. No, I haven't shot that many birds with them, I use them as training when teaching new shooters. Nothing is more discouraging than missing the target. Hitting builds confidence and that makes encouragement to persevere. I start with #9 shot for lots of pellets and lots of chances for a hit and gradually move down. When hits are consistent with 00 buckshot, I move them into lightly loaded cast bullets and then on up until they are at their own self-imposed level of accomplishment. Some just want to be able to know they can hit where they aim. Others want to get competitive or become proficient for hunting purposes. I take them where they want to go, slowly and steadily. When I caught up with my sister in Wyoming, she had been there about 10years and shot whatever anyone loaded for her 357mag. She had a terrible flinch. I took her through "my program" and the flinch and grimace were replaced by smiles and giggles. It became fun again for her. Oh, and she was able once again to shoot full 357mag loads without a flinch. I firmly believe a flinch does not have to happen. It's about confidence and being capable. Guess that's where I see me - facilitating the fun.

I'm going to get some 444brass and play with the shot loads using what I got out of that Beartooth thread. Will report as it goes.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2008, 09:31:08 AM »

Blackhawk44- Would you care to share your 45Colt shotshell recipe? Don't recall seeing anything recently in print. A box of 45 gaschecks is in the mail, so I'll probably make some with standard 45Colt brass before experimenting with the 444 brass. It's easier for me to shop through the mail than to 'go' shopping. Between the time it takes that I don't have and the Cost to get there - I choose to stay home for most of my shopping. Gives me more time for inhabiting my Gun Corner.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #11 on:** March 29, 2008, 01:57:36 AM »

If Top Brass makes a longer 45 colt casing that`ll need cut to cylinder length, that`s the way to go with this. The reason I`m experimenting with 444 brass is to get a full cylinder case.

DennisB · « **Reply #12 on:** March 29, 2008, 06:58:05 AM »

Just to stir things up a little--I've used 30-40 Krag brass for 44Mag shotshells in the past. Had to turn down the rims and mill them thinner, too, IIRC. But they worked, after some creative sizing to fit my SBH. Wonder what would work for a full-chamber 41 Mag shotshell??

burch · « **Reply #13 on:** March 29, 2008, 07:43:33 AM »

Top Brass is out of stock on their 45colt brass. so i`m back to 444 brass. Still trying to figure out how to size the casings. The 45colt dies won`t work.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #14 on:** March 29, 2008, 08:08:05 AM »

For 41mag, I've shortened 30-30 cases for correct length, even though the head size is a tad smaller. I've used these for over twenty years with full loads and no failures created by the difference in head size - much to my surprise. I imagine it might work for the full cylinder shotshell load concept. The more correct head size is on a 303Savage case - I just didn't have any on hand when I was doing all this years ago. I have loads of 30-30 and 32WSPL, so will probably start there. It's neat to find a group of fellow 'Handloaders'! I see handloaders and reloaders in very seperate arenas.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #15 on:** March 29, 2008, 08:43:41 AM »

Burch- Been chewing on this a bit and am wondering a bunch of what if's:
1) you put a 45expander ball in a 45-70 sizing die, the 444 case would not be sized down at all and the expander ball would bring the 444 case up to what you could 'size' in the 45seating die without the seating stem in place.

2) you cut the 444 case to length, start it into your 45 expander a half inch or less and 'fireform' using 10gr of Unique and some 44 round ball. I've loaned my books out and can't look it up, but I'm not sure if the outside dia of the 444 exceeds your 45 throat dia?!? After the fireforming, these cases should never need to be re-sized as the pressures are going to be so low compared to what the case was designed to handle - you are raising my interest to try this stuff.

Keep us informed of your results and procedures. We'll get some stuff written on this subject and the next generation won't have to search so much to find anything.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2008, 12:22:08 PM »

The 444 case will fit my cylinder up to about 1/8" before the rim touches. so we need just enough to taper that much or maybe a little more of the mouth of the casing. The cylinder tapers where the bullet dia. fits it. Once we taper the mouth of the casing we can then fireform it. I`ll also bet your right about never having to resize `em. The pressure has to be so low, case expassion is minimal at best. I`ve just sent out my cylinder to have the throats opened up to 452.5 for cast bullets. I`m wondering if that might be enough to allow the 444 casings to fit. Maybe - maybe not.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2008, 08:31:01 PM »

Burch-

I just won a batch of 444Marlin cases off Gunbroker and should have them in hand in a week or so. Will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2008, 10:20:48 AM »

Heck man, i`m still trying to get the case mouth sized to fit my chamber. I`m also still waiting on my cylinder to get back home.

Burch

Sweetwater · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2008, 09:03:16 PM »

I tried to insert a picture in here, and I don't have that part of this forum figured out. Help?

The picture was of a 32WinSPCL case beside a standard 41mag case beside a 32 case trimmed to 1.695, necked up to 35cal, necked up to 40cal, a 180gr 38-40 cast bullet seated upside down over 7.5gr of Herco (I'm out of Unique) then finally run full length into the 38-40 sizing die. Recrimp is optional as these are for fireforming.

Next was a similar trimmed 32 case with 9gr of Herco, a 35cal gascheck, filled with #4shot fitted with a 44cal gascheck which was rerun through the 38-40 sizing die and actually is a nice fit, though it crimps the top of the case in enough that the gascheck is the same outside dia as the case. This was to prove or disprove if I really needed to fireform before creating the shot loads.

Next was a similar trimmed 32 case similarly charged topped with a cork wad sealed with fingernail polish. The same proof test.

An alternate scenario had a trimmed 32 case necked up to 35cal and a 180gr 35cal cast seated normally, though very deeply, over the same 7.5gr of Herco. This was to prove if I needed to neck up to 40cal or fireform from 35cal. The work I did to get the 35cal bullets to stay put wasn't worth it - necking to 40cal proved necessary.

These loads really fill the cylinder on my Blackhawk. !.74 was my max cylinder length availability. I set the trimmer to 1.7, connected my power drill and when the case mouths were cleaned up, they settled in at 1.695. A good fit for a shotshell. I've read about cylinder lockup doing this kind of stuff, due to bottle-necking the case, I believe. I also believe pressure plays a part , so I'm thinking these shotshells need to get their velocity and performance without 'magnum' pressures. If what I've done works well, performance will be phase two of this experiment. Should not require any resizing and be fairly straight-forward. I'm using Herco and #4's because that's what I had available. Unique or W231 or Trailboss might do better, and may be where I go with this.

So far, the straight to the shot and wad seems to be the scenariio of choice, but....I get to shoot tomorrow! Stay tuned!

Meanwhile, how do I insert the pics?

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #20 on:** April 02, 2008, 10:49:59 AM »

Open a browser window up with your post and minimize it down on your tool bar. Then open up another browser window and go to Photobucket ( providing you have photobucket ) under your pictures you have four options. Left click on the Direct Link option. Then maximize your post and left click where you want your picture and hit paste. Vwellah you pic is now on your post.

Handsome devil ain`t he

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/DaytonDave/sass.jpg

Sweetwater · « **Reply #21 on:** April 02, 2008, 08:58:36 PM »

Well, the site came through, but I'm not too sure about the picture.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/Sweetwater49/41magshotshellevolution2002.jpg

I did most of the mechanics with 38-40 dies, though I messed with other combinations in an attempt to facilitate some progress.

We shall see.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #22 on:** April 02, 2008, 09:13:15 PM »

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/Sweetwater49/41magshotshellevolution2002.jpg

OK, where is the error of my ways? What little button am I overlooking? Why can't anything be straight-forward and easy?

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2008, 01:28:55 AM »

I`d guess you have a camera focus issue. If your camera don`t have a focus option ( like mine don`t )try taking your pictures at different distances. 1' - 2' etc. `till you have it where you want it.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2008, 09:17:27 AM »

Burch-

I was wanting to see the picture in the post, not just a link. Guess that is not happening. This next photo is a batch of trimmed & fireformed cases for the 41mag shotshells. I'm thinking the Herco powder was too slow to facilitate a great fit, but good enough for what I'm doing. Seems the ones I just sized up to 40cal and loaded the powder and shot came out as good as the ones with lead - so I'm going to eliminate that part of the process. Going to go back to Unique or Bullseye - at least something significantly faster than Herco. Put a real batch of dents in a 3# coffee can, but not the results I want, also showing lower velocity than I'm looking for. Would probably put a real hurt on a grouse at 10 yards, but my regular 41mag shot loads are good to way beyond that (I've taken grouse out of the top of a pine tree) so I'm sure it's a powder issue.
Contrary to Blackhawk44's experience, I've found I really like #4's in the regular 41case. Maybe I haven't used enough of the smaller shot to fully appreciate it.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/Sweetwater49/100_0565.jpg

These are trimmed and fireformed, flanked by a 32WinSpcl on the left and a normal 41mag on the right.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #25 on:** April 08, 2008, 09:41:37 AM »

trying something different here to get the pic onboard.

burch · « **Reply #26 on:** April 08, 2008, 10:29:15 AM »

Looks like ya got `er wired Sweetwater. The pics turned out nice and clear. As for me i`m still a-waitin` on my cylinder.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #27 on:** April 09, 2008, 09:02:09 AM »

The .444 has a base diameter of .470" which is about .010" smaller than a .45 Colt. It is a straight taper to .453" at the mouth, but of course there is some variation in the brass as well as some variation in sizing dies. It is just possible that a sized and unexpanded .444 might enter the throad of a .45 Colt chamber. If not then you would have to run then into the .45 Colt seater die and let the crimp shoulder resize the forward portion of the brass. I've tinkered around a lot with shot loads for revolvers in .45 Colt and .45 ACP and have found that nothing I could concoct was useful beyound 15-20 feet. Shot from a rifled barrel just scatters too wildly to be any sort of substitute shotgun. At the effective range of a shot load you could hardly miss with a bullet. It is fun to experiment but don't expect anything useful to come of it. Even the Taurus Judge with factory loaded .410 shotshells is not good for much but snakes at very close range, measured in feet not yards. If you want a shot pistol I highly recommend the single shot Super Comanche .45/.410. With the choke on that one and 3/4 ounce of 7 1/2 shot it is deadly on small game to 25 and maybe 30 yards. They retail for around $200 if you can find one.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #28 on:** April 09, 2008, 08:53:24 PM »

Coyotejoe-

Thanks for the heads up on the seating die to help in the 444 processing. I used a 38-40 die to effectively do the same with the 32WinSpcl cases for my 41mag as shown in the previous picture.

Never shot a snake, but I have shot far more ruffed grouse with a standard 41mag case filled with #4birdshot, than with all my shotguns put together. Probably mostly because I was doing it during the Maine deer season and later during the Wyoming deer and elk seasons and now during the Idaho deer and elk seasons - they were targets of opportunity. Started with CCI shotshells in my 357mag back around '79 - longest shot about 30ft, and when I got the 41Mag, I found Elmer Keith's method of prepping shotshells for it in standard cases and went to town. I found #4's very effective to about 40ft - not sure if any shots were appreciably longer. Deferring to Blackhawk44's recommendations, I am going back to the lab and trying some #8's, the smallest I have on hand. It's all fun and that's the name of my game. Keeps me off the streets at night and my wife knows exactly where I am - no stress.

Regards,
Sweetwater

coyotejoe · « **Reply #29 on:** April 10, 2008, 04:46:42 AM »

With #4 shot you are only getting about 50 pellets per load, a change to #8s will give you about three times as many pellets. However, I have my doubts as to the penetration of #8 shot from a revolver, not knowing what the initial velocity may be. I've never shot anything but paper with my .45 caliber shot loads and seeing the pattern on paper discouraged me from attempting any small game shooting. I have taken several sitting grouse and one on the wing with the Super Comanche .410 and a friend has taken a dozen or so with his.