Author Topic: 45 colt shotshells (Read 3856 times)

LONGTOM · « **Reply #30 on:** April 10, 2008, 05:43:01 AM »

I have loaded well over 800 shot loads in my life both for me and two of my friends. We all shot 45 colts and I also load 44 mag and 44-40s. Most of my loads consist of #8 or 9 shot. I like the 9s the best but it can be hard to get. I use 7.5 gr UNIQUE in all loads using the speer shot tubes. They are very effective on rats at my friends dairy barn at night. Ranges run about 10 to 40 ft. 90% are one shot kills. Barrel lenghts run from 4 5/8 to 7 1/2". The rifling does have a tendency to throw the shot in a 1/4 moon pattern but you soon learn to ignore that. For heavy outside loads I use to load 45 colts with 9gr unique behind #6s with a gas check but after a few cuts in the metal siding of my friends garage I no longer use them, but boy were they deadly! The most fun is with a 10" old style oct. barrel contender in 44mag with a screw on choke that has virtually all the rifling shot out of it. It has been opened up to a 3" 410. NOW THAT WILL GET THE JOB DONE!!! I bought it at a gun show years ago. It is still stamped 44mag. so no one notices that it has been opened up. They think it is just the standard old TC 44 shot barrel. It also does a pretty good job on squirells and rabbits to.
Load them up and have some fun!

LONGTOM

Sweetwater · « **Reply #31 on:** April 10, 2008, 03:12:12 PM »

Longtom-
Looks like a fine batch of experience you've had with the shotshells. Thanks for sharing. I've never patterned any of my shotshells, and don't look for a lot of hits per shell. I take headshots only, at least that's my intention, and they are the only shots that are reliable with my load. I'm not sure how much a single #4 weighs, but the load contained 160gr total shot. Elmer claimed 1100fps in his writeup - I've never chronographed these, just used them and put stuff in the freezer.

Burch-
Got the 444's in today's mail. TONIGHT - we embark on the big quest. Will keep you enlightened.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2008, 12:54:13 AM »

I`ve had my 444 casings for about two weeks now and i`m dying to find out how to size these babbies. I finally got my pistolla back together and i`m shooting it this evening. I had the forcing cone cut to 11 degree`s and the cylinder throats opened up to 452.5 for cast bullets. Can`t wait to launch some ammo.

Burch

Sweetwater · « **Reply #33 on:** April 11, 2008, 08:21:58 PM »

Yo Burch-
All I had to do was trim the 444's to fit the 45Colt cylinder, add powder, and loaded some 44lead bullets with a good crimp. Fit like a glove and ready for fireforming. Will also try some with shot like I did for the 41mag and see if the shot will also facilitate the fireforming stage.

Tuesday, I hit the front skyscreen on the Chrony for the first time in my life. Not Cool. The plastic was old and brittle and just shattered. The Chrony website said a straw or other such object could be used as a guide and no 'screen' was necessary unless it was a bright day. We set up a beach umbrella over the Chrony, stuck 16d nails in the holes for the skyscreens, and jammed straws over the nails. Worked like a dream and totally cost effective!

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:37:46 AM »

This might be a little easier than I thought. The trimmed 444 casings fit great after the cylinder work I had done. Before the work the casing would go in less about 1/8" of the rim sticking out. Now It fits but it`s still a little snug. I`m going to trim it down until it slides in nice. I should get it to about 1/16" from the front of the cylinder. I`m going to try Longtom`s recipe with the 7.5 grains of Unique and fill up the case with #9 shot with a .030 card over powder and one over shot. What should we do about a primer ?

Burch

burch · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2008, 10:39:45 AM »

Well that didn`t work, mine are still too tight and about 1/8" from the front of the cylinder.

Sweetwater,
How long did you make your casings ? Also, what brand dies are you using ?

Sweetwater · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:37:53 PM »

Burch-

My 45 Colt dies are RCBS. Your procedure sounds fine and that load should work great like Longtom said.

If your cases fit the cylinder before you loaded them, then they should fit after you load them - unless you are somewhat changing the shape of the case while you are loading?

I haven't done the 45's yet - I forgot to pick up the 44 dies needed to crimp the top gas check into place. It will need to be a 44 gas check, also, not a 45. 45 gas checks won't fit inside the cylinder throat no matter what you do. With my 41mag, I used 38-40 crimping die, which I just happened to have. Are you expanding with a 45 expander? That's a no-no - too big for the throats. If you did do that, just run the top of the case, maybe a half inch or so, as necessary, to let the case fit into the throat area. If you trim the case shorter to make it fit, you might just as well use standard 45 cases? Use the 44 dies and let the case fireform to fit. These 444 cases I just trim to length desired, stick in the powder, add gas check, stick in the shot, add gas check, crimp with 44mag crimping die - which I forgot to pickup so this is on hold. Expect enough pressure to properly fireform. All future loading will have to be done with 44 dies, as well.

The old Lyman manual shows standard rifle primers for cast loads with Unique and 2400 and so I think I would stick with that - the standard rifle primers. It's one more thing we can play with in this development process. Maybe load some with Pistol primers and note the differences, if any.

Hope this gets you up and running - this has been a fun trip for me.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #37 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:40:10 PM »

Burch-

Forgot to ask - where did you send your cylinder and what did you have done, just the throats opened up?

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #38 on:** April 14, 2008, 03:16:28 AM »

I sent my cylinder to www.cylindersmith.com. His price is $38 shipped. He opened the throats up to 452.5 I`m usings 45colt Dillon dies and I think that`s why I can`t size the mouth of the casing down `cause they must be built different. The seating stem is a whole assembly and can be removed but still won`t work. I want these casings to fit almost all the way to the front of the cylinder. I hate to buy a whole set up of 44 dies and conversion plate for this `cause the Dillon set up is not cheap. I`ll have to cross reference it and maybe I can use the standard plate that came with my press and buy some use RCBS dies. So, if I size the 444 casings with 44 mag dies will that allow the casing to fill the cylinder all the out or what ? Also I have standard rifle primers and standard large pistol primers so i`ll try both. You can use a card over the shot and one over powder and Elmers glue if you want on top of the shot card and that`ll save you from buying a crimp die. I just cut mine from a shoe box top with a 444 cut down case, just cut off the rim. I then use my deburring tool inside and outside to sharpen it to cut. Then I put it in my cordless drill and cut `em that way. The box top makes a .030 card and they work great.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 14, 2008, 07:18:40 AM »

burch & sweetwater

I have been trying to fallow what your doing as the 45LC is one of my fav rounds to shoot and the idea of shot shells is something that i just never thought of . what COL are you coming up with for your brass , the reason i ask is that i was thinking that maybe the 454 Casull case would work as well with out all the trouble of forming the 444 cases .

What do you think ? or am i way too short with the 454 ?

stimpy

burch · « **Reply #40 on:** April 14, 2008, 07:27:12 AM »

Hey Stimpy,
The reason we we`re using a rifle case is to try and get a case that was about 1/16" shorter than the cylinder. The reason for this madness is to get a LITTLE heavier charge and a lot more shot in the casing. How much longer is the 454 compared to a 45colt casing ? He might just have something their Sweetwater.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 14, 2008, 07:33:48 AM »

burch

The colt comes in at 1.285 and the casull in at 1.383 for a diffrence of .098 , the reason i asked is both my guns are 45 Colt not 454 chambered so the longer 454 brass may work .

Another reason i was thinking 454 is that the round is designed to run at 65k PSI there for the brass will be heavier and last longer than the standard colt cases .

stimpy

burch · « **Reply #42 on:** April 14, 2008, 09:17:18 AM »

That`s around 1/8" I don`t see you getting any more shot or powder to make it worth while.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #43 on:** April 14, 2008, 10:01:55 AM »

Yep , thats perty much what i came up with , with a standard 45LC case i can get 6gr of Unique , an over powder wad , 170gr of # 7 1/2 shot and another wad . that just fills the case , I can see were the 444 brass could give room for another 50 or 60 grains of shot .

stimpy

burch · « **Reply #44 on:** April 14, 2008, 10:03:54 AM »

Feel free to add any suggestions Stimpy. Sweetwater and me are trying to figure this out. Any help is welcome.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 14, 2008, 12:46:48 PM »

Been looking over case drawings and maybe the 460 S&W will work too , with a COL of 1.800 and a body of .478 , the only down side is the rim being .520 . thats .008 larger than the 45 Colt .

Just throwing ideas out there , as far as price the 460 brass is on par with the 444 cases .

stimpy

Sweetwater · « **Reply #46 on:** April 14, 2008, 08:20:12 PM »

Hey Stimpy - Welcome to the foray! LOL
I don't think either Burch or I have all the goods on this yet, and it may be an excercise in futility - but for me, it's been a blast and I've sure enjoyed the exchange of thought and ideas here.

Burch-
I don't have to buy the 44crimip die, I just have to remember to pick it up. I have a buddy with a spare set. That wad cutter you make from a 444 case - how do you chuck it in your cordless drill? Mine only has a 3/8" chuck. Sounds like a neat idea, and certainly more cost effective (did I say cheaper) than gas checks which I have a limited supply of in 44. I have made wads from gasket material and cork using an empty case as a cookie cutter.

Nothing really new from here. I went back to work last Thursday - been layed off about half the winter - and it's eating into my research and development time. Saturday I got talked into spending the day casting (my buddy really twisted my arm) and Sunday is Church and get caught up day. In a couple days I see a possible window of opportunity to get back to the shotshells.

Cut my first case at 1.725" - probably could get 1.75", but I thought it a good place to start. Still no Unique, so I put in 10gr of Herco, and a 41 gas check, then 205gr of #8 shot, capped with a 44 gas check. I was surprised that a 44 gas check was too tight as a base wad, but the 41 went good and snug. Will keep you posted.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sweetwater · « **Reply #47 on:** April 14, 2008, 08:43:28 PM »

P.S. - just had another flash of inspiration. Reread some of what we have posted and a question comes to mind.
Burch,
you stated you had trouble sizing the mouths small enough. Mine were small enough to start with - how come yours are larger? The 444 case is a good fit in the chamber throats as is. Even with yours opened up a trifle, it is still a good fit. Think on it.
Also, your thoughts of having to do future loads with a 44 die - I don't believe you'll have to size anything, just reprime, charge, and go. We shall see on that one. Appears all that is needed is a 44 crimp die. Possibly running the throat area through a 44 sizer after fireforming - I guess that's a possiblity - the brass at 1.725" is .445" dia so it will expand to .4525" in your new cylinder throats. Mine are still tight at .4505 for now. I wrote to Cylindersmith last week - I saw on his website a note about a 38-40magnum and I just has to ask about it. Love the 40 calibers! The 41 calibers! The 45 Calibers! Never cared much for the 44's - makes you wonder.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #48 on:** April 15, 2008, 09:55:47 AM »

I bought my 444 casings from someone I don`t know. Now, i`ve never reloaded this caliber so i`m wondering if these are once fired. I thought they we`re resized `cause they have no primers. I wonder if that`s why they won`t fit my cylinder full length ?

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #49 on:** April 15, 2008, 12:10:36 PM »

burch

If the person you got them from used a Lee Uni. de-caping die that would explain them not fitting , as they would be fireformed to their chamber . On a side note i took some of my 45 colt shot loads to the range today to see how they shot , it did a number on clay targets at 25 feet . I also have a 460 S&W case coming to see how that will work , I'll keep you posted .

stimpy

Sweetwater · « **Reply #50 on:** April 15, 2008, 03:20:34 PM »

Stimpy-
That 460 case should only be about .005" long, not a bad trim at all. However, I'm not sure my Blackhawk has enough rim clearance. That I will really be interested to receive a word on. Your standard case shotshells sound really good. I took a lot of grouse at that distance and a bit further with standard 41mag cases similarly loaded - recipe from Elmer Keith's writings.

Burch-
Agreeing with Stimpy there about your cases. Either way all is not lost. What other calibers do you already have dies for? If I had your particular problem, I would size the top portion of the case in something like a 257Roberts die, something with a shoulder dia of .452" or less, or body dia of .452" at the 1.75" mark: that will take the 'enlargement' out and prep you for fireforming to your cylinder. I believe (my disclaimer) any die that has a body taper that you can feed the mouth of your case into will bring your case down to where it will chamber for fireforming. BTW my cases were new. Been thinking that subsequent loadings not needing sizing of any kind would really take to your paper wad over shot treatment. A fireformed case would really cut a good fitting wad - no?

Regards,
Sweetwater

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #51 on:** April 15, 2008, 03:51:44 PM »

Sweetwater

That's why i have a couple cases coming , the rim was my main consurn too , was thinking that it may be easier to turn the rim as to do all the cutting and forming , we shall see in a few days .

As for bruch's problem , he may be able to run the case mouth in his 45 colt die to get it down enough to fit after he trims them to a closer length .

stimpy

Sweetwater · « **Reply #52 on:** April 15, 2008, 04:50:24 PM »

Stimpy-

I ran mine into the 45 Colt sizer 'just to see' and it's way too big. Needs to be closer to the .445 of the 444 brass than the .476 of the 45 Colt brass so it will fit in the throat. I was aiming at 'what do you have that will work' vs. 'go out and buy'. I have several rifle dies that would make that enlarged case fit, but not sure what Burch may have on hand or available for a one-time borrow. I don't have means to turn down a rim - never got that far in machinist training, though I did work for GE on a milling machine back in the 70's - seems like a thousand years ago. Therefore, it's easier for me to chuck my trimmer into my drill and trim to fit. OR - do you have an 'idiot-proof' method of turning down rims? All thoughts and suggestions accepted.

Burch- There you have it - what ya got in the cabinet?
A thought on your press. Yours is a Dillon progressive? You might consider a 2nd press for Research and Development. Sounds funny, I know, but you can probably yard sale a press, with patience, for less than a tank of gas - now that really isn't funny! Say $15-$25 we sometimes see them at shows for that price - used and dirty for sure, but still very usable. This may be cheaper than getting what you need to make your Dillon do these kind of jobs. Die sets can be had at shows and in yard sales quite reasonably - a lot of mine were under $10 for the set. I also have some over $60 sets from when I was less patient looking for obsure/obsolete calibers.

Regards,
Sweetwater

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #53 on:** April 16, 2008, 02:15:28 AM »

Sweetwater

I see your point about the 45 sizer , didn't think that far ahead , as for the rim , what I'm thinking is to take a pilot for my trimmer and slid it into the case mouth to keep it from crushing and then chuck it up , neck first into a 1/2" batt drill , then just run it slow on a piece of 400 grit em-rey paper to take off the extra , going to try it with a junk 45 colt case to see if it will work , will only need about .004 off . I also need to check the rim thickness to make sure it is not too much .

stimpy

burch · « **Reply #54 on:** April 16, 2008, 09:16:36 AM »

I have a 550 Dillon press not a progressive. I have 45colt,45acp,35rem,38spec, 270 win dies all set for reloading. I don`t think any of these will work but i`ve been wrong before. I`ve tried the 45acp dies and they won`t work. So if I need to buy a die for just sizing this 444 case back to normal what will I need exactly ? Heck, i`ll invest in a die and tool head for it.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #55 on:** April 16, 2008, 05:13:35 PM »

Stimpy-

Don't know about the rim thickness possible issue - only they do advertise shooting 45 Colt in the 460 cylinder - that's all I know.

I do have a 1/2" drill - an old Craftsman, turns about 300 rpm's if I remember correctly. It's a beast. And a good thought - thanks.

Burch-

You got it, man!!! Get that 270 sizing die torn apart and mounted, grease up your cases, and - carefully - feed the case in until just the portion that don't fit your cylinder gets sized down a touch. I ran my finished round into my 30-06 sizer and it went in easily to within .582" of the rim. That should make a target depth for you, but whatever you need to make a fit. You can't come down too much as the head size of the '06 is much greater than the 444. Expect the 270 die to work the same. The suspense mounts!

I was happy to see my 45 shell holder fit the 444 case yeah! This old Herter's press is hard to find shell holders for, but I do get by.

Hope to shoot Saturday - I'm back to work, so may have to work, but....will keep you posted.

Regards,
Sweetwater

burch · « **Reply #56 on:** April 19, 2008, 01:32:56 AM »

BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!! The 270 die worked. What I did was go the hardwear store and picked up a small tubing cutter for cutting copper tubing. Then I slid the case in the cylinder and marked it with an exacto knife and cut it about 1/16" shorter. Then used my dial calibers and when I got the measurement from the cut casing I set the thumb screw to stop it from moving. Then I just set the dial calibers on the casing and with the top jaw made a scratch on it and cut them all to an exact length. Deburr the inside and out side and your done. So now i`m headed to the reloading bench and do some testing tonight. I`ll let you fellas know how it all turned out. The only thing i`m a little concerned about is how sloppy they fit the cylinder now. Fireforming will tell the tale on that.

burch · « **Reply #57 on:** April 19, 2008, 07:48:19 AM »

O.K. i`ve got 7.5 grs. of Unique, 200grs. of #9 shot. I loaded six with a standard rifle primers and six with a standard pistol primers. I`ll save the targets and take a picture of `em. I`m going to start out at 10yrds and work my way back and find out where the best pattern is.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #58 on:** April 19, 2008, 02:32:09 PM »

Burch & Sweetwater

Did the first prototypes with a 460 S&W case a few minuets ago , Started with a COL of 1.800 , trimmed it down to 1.470 that gave me 0.110 short of a full cylinder @ 1.580 . Did have to take 0.003 off the rim , that only took about 2 min. by hand with some 220 grit emery cloth ( had to do this to fit my 45 LC shell holder ) .

Next i ran the case part way into my 270 sizer die to get a profile that would fit the cylinder throat , primed up the case with a Remington 7 1/2 LR primer , added 8 grains of Unique with a 0.025 cardboard wad between the powder and shot . Was only able to get 195 grains of # 6 shot in the case , then the over shot wad .

Thinking that if i use Bullseye or Titegroup and smaller shot size i could get a larger shot load in these cases . The down side is that i only have 2 cases to work with right how but if all goes well I'll get more soon .

Plan to shoot these in the morning so I will let you know how it goes .

stimpy

burch · « **Reply #59 on:** April 19, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »

Test resolts are in :
First off the fireforming went very well. The load with the pistol primers had a good pattern at 10 and 15yrds but had no penetration into a coffee can, just dents at that same range. The load with the rifle primers also had a good pattern at 10 and 15 yrds and penetrated through one side of the coffee can at the same range. So i`m going from 7.5 grs. of Unique to 8.0 with the rifle primers and see what happens. I think I can still get the 200grs. of #9 shot in it `cause I had about 1/16" of case left on top of the card. I might have to lower my grs. of shot to get a higher powder charge to penetrate. Also they had a mild recoil so pressure isn`t an issue so far.

Stimpy,
When I sized my 444marlin casings with my .270 win dies I ran `em all the way in the die and had no problems at all. Good luck with it and keep us informed.