Author Topic: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development  (Read 4415 times)

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Offline JJHACK

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What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« on: March 24, 2008, 01:25:23 PM »
I have been raising Corsican Rams on my ranch now for a while and I have some nice rams. I was wondering when they reach full horn size. I know in my Africa business that if we take kudu for Example, they will be maxed out with only minimal growth at about 6 years old. I have a Ram that will be 4 years old this fall and he's pretty nice. I wonder how many more years of growth he has.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 03:42:05 AM »
Jim I believe they keep growing thru out their life but I'm sure there will come a point when that growth is minimal. As you likely know the Corsican is a hybrid not a pure breed of sheep and they tend to vary greatly in horn growth as well as the way the horns look. As I recall they are a mix of Mouflon and the normal white barn yard sheep which some ranches call Barbado, barbados, barbarosa and other such names.

The white sheep in them tends to have huge spirally horns that can have as many as two full curls at times and the Mouflon has very impressive horns but on a true Mouflon the tip to tip spread is NEVER the widest spread. In your photo the mouflon influence is strong in those horns and I kinda doubt he will ever have the really wide spreading multiple turns that some of them get. I suspect that by age ten he will have about all he will ever have in the way of horns.

What are your plans for the sheep you are raising?


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Offline JJHACK

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 09:17:31 AM »
I moved last year to a very rural farm community. I was simply fed up with the populations of people everyplace near the coast.

So now I have quite a bit of land which took about 8 months to fence with 48" sheep fencing, it's a variable mesh smaller at the bottom then the top. The whole place is fenced now without any cross fences, except for the corral the orchard, the garden and house area.

I wanted something to entertain me here, and plain old live stock was not gonna do it. I also did not care to have an 8ft fence for the more skilled jumpers. I ran into a breeder of Corsican sheep and it seemed a good mix.

Your description of them is pretty good, but I can help fill in a few blanks. I have been to the breeder meetings and the Ag dept sites to learn quite a bit about this breed. It is a mixed breed to a degree, but now that it's been bred true to form for about 70 years there are some really strong repeatable traits that are being used to register "Pure Corsican" stock.  Much like pure bred dogs were all mixed breeds at one time until enough interest and a breed standard was develeoped.

Corsican sheep were originally bred from the Barbado, which is a hair sheep, but they are polled (both sexes are hornless)  merino sheep are a rather ugly but large wool breed with big horns, and Mouflon, another hair sheep with notable history.

The Barbado has twins and triplets frequently and breed all year around. A good trait but no horns. The Merino is a very big but ugly wool breed, not very trophy worthy farm sheep but has the trait of the big horns. The Mouflon has the wild streak and the wonderful coloration.

So this developed the corsican, now there are Texas Dall which is simply a white corsican which has been selectively bred from unusual colored white corsican sheep, Then there are Hawaiian Blacks, which are Corsicans that were born black and then selectively bred for this new "breed", and then Painted Desert sheep, which are multi colored Corsican sheep.

Every one of these is a Corsican sheep, but has been selectively picked from the flock for color and then the breeding was done to increase and improve the blood lines for a specific color. They are nothing more then specific colored Corsicans. The 777 ranch was one of the first to have this color specific breeding program. Texas Dall have ZERO dall sheep blood, and the Hawaiian Blacks were just a melonistic freak of a corsican. They are not unique to Hawaii, nor were they first shot in Hawaii.

Then we have the American Black-belly which is a Corsican sheep 100% in every way, but ..........it's a more politically correct name for a farm breeder that wants to distance himself from the Hunting industry where the "corsican" is the trophy species, the Black-belly is the livestock/ meat breed.

This short bit of info is available in a number of formal government documents today. There is also a formal specification for the breed standard of the Corsican( American blackbelly), and a registry for pure bred sheep. It's the reason I chose them over any of the others. The various color spin-offs are simply corsicans of another color. I like the original color best, and they have the longest pure bred history of them all. This would be like calling a black bear that is brown, Cinnamon or blond another species, rather then just a color phase difference.

What will I do with mine,.........I have no idea! I have over 20 now with the lambs born this year. I have more lambs coming in the summer too, the beauty of the Barbado genetics that have multiple babies and year round breeding!  Guess I'll have to butcher some this fall, and maybe sell some off. Mine are all registered pure bred specimens too!
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 01:39:05 PM »
I was aware of the color variations of them and their names I really wasn't aware that they are now considered a pure species however. On our second exotic hunt to Texas by wife and two of my sons accompanied me. The oldest and my wife hunted with me on that hunt and we each took two Corsicans a piece.

Two of them had that beautiful Mouflon coloration to them that I really prefer and even had the white patch of the mouflon on them but their horns clearly were not the mouflon type. My son and I each shot one that went ROE Gold and I got one that went Silver as well. His other was Bronze and my wife took one really small one and one Bronze.

They would be fun to have around to watch I'm sure.


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Offline JJHACK

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 02:19:23 PM »
Here is my second largest Ram, but the most dominant of the herd. You can see his thick winter fur and Mouflon coloration.



Here is a photo of some of the group on the ridge line behind my house

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Offline drdougrx

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 03:03:51 PM »
Hey JJ

Nice thread.  I've assassinated...er...shot quite a few nice ones in all of the color phases.  I expect they will max out by 6 or 7 years....can we count rings to age them????  I have mine posted on my FOTKI site if you have the interest....my biggest is a 33+".
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 06:01:28 AM »
I suspect that somewhere between 7 and ten years the growth slows to almost nothing. I would like to see if anyone has a good Corsican head that can count the rings and see about how old they are. I think most hunted on exotic ranches are shot by the time they are 4-5 years old, nice heads but not maxed out yet.

Take a peek at the sheep on this site:   http://hildestuff.com/Sheep/main_sheep.htm

His Rams verge on silly they are so huge! I'll bet these are 7-10 years old now. I think with 12 more inches of growth over the next 3-4 years my biggest ram could be similiar. I just have to hope he does not break any off between now and then.

I have sent this fella an Email and asked about the aging issue, I've not heard back yet. I'll let you know what he says.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 01:09:25 PM »
I have to confess I don't really know how to count the rings and age one. I looked at both of mine and just don't see any clearly defined place to say one year begins and another ends. Here are a couple of images of my largest if you can figure out a way to tell it's age from them. I can e-mail larger images but these are as large as I can assign URLs to.

Hmm I think I need to do it as two posts as only one gave the option to scroll to see the entire image.



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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 01:12:16 PM »
The other "close up" image:




Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2008, 03:40:16 AM »
I see 4 age segments on that ram, the first one may not show well, but the length of growth would be too much for a first year, so I have to assume there is one there? The other ones are clearly visible to a Sheep owners "eye"
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2008, 05:31:16 PM »
So are you saying he was four or five when I shot him?

I tried looking it over closely and thought that "maybe" I saw seven separate growth areas but really it was pretty clear to me I had no clue what I was looking for. I really was thrown when I got to the tip as there seems a LOT of growth from what appeared to my totally untrained eye as the end of a grown cycle to the tip of the horn.


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Offline T.R.

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 05:16:51 AM »
Thompson Temple says the Corsican is a hybrid from cross between Mouflon and Argali.

Mouflon contributed long black chest hair and coloration.  Argali contributed spiral horns.

TR

Offline Rabyrams

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 05:59:26 PM »
i dont mean to sound out of place, but im sure T. Temple didnt say a Corsican is a Mix between argali and Mouflon.. that mix is called a STUMBERG SHEEP. he has some of these, that i wish i could afford to purchase as breeders..  he does know his stuff, and i actually learned from him, that an Argali/Mouflon is a Stumberg Sheep.
There is so many different mixes nowadays.. they are all Barbado Sheep   "bearded sheep"  that are being breed for different colorations.
the Argali, Mouflon, Bighorns,Alaskan Dall, Stone Sheep.. and a few others.. are the Real Deal - wild sheep...
The Texas Dall, is just a Nickname, and the Corsican is basically a Barbado type sheep with a little bit of Mouflon in it somewhere.
this can be argued all day, or agreed upon... but the Dalls, Black hawaiians, and Several others - are nothing more than NICKNAMES.
a Good Ram will continue Growing horns for 10 years.. but on average, they stop at 5 or 6.   some Stop at 3 or 4.
some grow slow, some grow Fast.  i have seen 8 year old sheep with 1 curl.. and ive seen 2 year old sheep with 2 curls.
Pictures below are just a few of the sheep I have for breeders.  they are YOUNG.  2 of them are only 2 years old, and one of them is just 1 year old.
these are the types of genetics i like, an average ram will not grow horns like these untill 3-4 years of age.  and many "average" rams only grow a tight curl, close to the head.

http://themarksman.us/memories4/bighornslam1.htm
http://themarksman.us/memories4/bighornslam1.htm
http://themarksman.us/memories4/bighornslam1.htm
http://themarksman.us/memories4/bighornslam1.htm

Offline Rabyrams

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2008, 06:01:37 PM »
sorry, those were the wrong links. here is a couple of my YOUNG 1-2 year old breeders.




Offline Rabyrams

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2008, 06:02:28 PM »
another..

Offline Rabyrams

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2008, 06:05:08 PM »
this old corsican had some age on him, i belive he was 5 years old.
he broke his tips.. he had good mass but didnt grow a wide spread.  if only he was wider i could have used him for 1 or 2 years as a breeder


Offline rex6666

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 10:09:26 AM »
this is very intresting, nice looking sheep.
In 1986 i was hunting in west TX. on a ranch about 25-30 miles from the end of Paladoro canyon
were TX had turned loose Audad and Muflon years before, the ranch foreman told us to shot any goats
we saw as they were trying to get them off thee ranch. I shot what i thought was a goat, it
stank like it had been dead 2 weeks, had long multicolored hair, horns made if i remember 2 full
curls then went straight out about 4-6 inches huge horns for the animal. I told the foreman about it he went to see came back and said he had no idea what it was, i sure didn't, he said he would just leave
it there. I told this story to a guy about 2 years later, he laughed at me and said i had probably
left a record book muflon. such is life!
Rex
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Offline rex6666

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2008, 06:14:36 AM »
JJHACK
the ram that you say is your second largest with moflon coloration, is like the animal i shot
in west Texas in 1986, it had those colors but had horns tight to its head, two full curls and then the tips
pointed straight out maybe 4-6 inches, this animal i would gues weighed 300lbs.
does that sound like a muflon, or did i shoot some Mexicans heard ram, we were only 12-15 miles
from Mex.
Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

Texas is good for men and dogs, but it is hell on women and horses.

Offline drdougrx

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2008, 04:10:53 PM »
Hey Rex,

300lbs is really huge.  I once shot a merino sheep that was close to 200lbs, but a corsican is never that big.  Also, I've seen some sheep where the horns are in real tight "princess Laya" curls.
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Offline rex6666

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Re: What age are Corsican rams at maximum horn development
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2008, 09:33:15 AM »
yea he was really huge, and that was the kind of horns he had.
long hair, yellowish orange,black and white
probably 44" at shoulder
did not weigh but looked way heavier that the mule deer.
This thing stunk so bad that no one wanted to get very close.
Maybe it was some undiscovered breed :o
Rex
GOD GUNS and GUTS MADE AMERICA GREAT

Texas is good for men and dogs, but it is hell on women and horses.