Author Topic: Breech plug without primer carriers (Read 4282 times)

Buckhammer74 · « **on:** March 30, 2008, 04:47:51 PM »

What if you took a piece of stainless steel wide enough in circumference to fill the main hole of the plug and tall enough to be struck by the firing pin, drilled it to take a 209, and tig welded it to the areas around the flathead slots of the standard breachplug, would this work?Would it be safe? I dont know alot about pressures and such but I do have access to a tig welder and some machine equipment.

burntmuch · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2008, 05:27:25 PM »

If you had a extra breech plug, It would be worth a try.

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2008, 06:26:53 PM »

I think I will order an extra from H&R and try it out. I just need to find out if we have ss round stock at work that will do.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2008, 11:18:22 PM »

Buck, keep us posted on that project... let us know how it works out.
I can't be the only one interested in stuff like this.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2008, 06:35:13 AM »

I think going that way you end up with how to get plug out? If you are gonna stay with a 209 primer why not drill and tap for screw in 209 nipple you don't need the primer carrier for that do ya?Kurt

Buckhammer74 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2008, 05:59:30 PM »

Quote from: PHATINJUN on March 31, 2008, 06:35:13 AM

I think going that way you end up with how to get plug out? If you are gonna stay with a 209 primer why not drill and tap for screw in 209 nipple you don't need the primer carrier for that do ya?Kurt

Where would you get a screw in nipple? I can drill and tap, if one is available.

To get the plug out the way I am suggesting, you would have to modify the wrench. It would end up looking like a 2 pronged fork. The same would be true for a screw in. It would protrude further than the slots.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2008, 11:04:12 AM »

Quote from: Buckhammer74 on April 01, 2008, 05:59:30 PM

Quote from: PHATINJUN on March 31, 2008, 06:35:13 AM
I think going that way you end up with how to get plug out? If you are gonna stay with a 209 primer why not drill and tap for screw in 209 nipple you don't need the primer carrier for that do ya?Kurt
Where would you get a screw in nipple? I can drill and tap, if one is available.
To get the plug out the way I am suggesting, you would have to modify the wrench. It would end up looking like a 2 pronged fork. The same would be true for a screw in. It would protrude further than the slots.

I have absolutely NO idea what the clearance is between the aft end of the Sidekick or new Huntsman breechplugs and the standing breech,
BUT...
Hubbard's makes a 209 nipple ("primer carrier") requiring no plastic carriers for their barrels & plugs which fits perfectly in the old push-in style plug from the '70's.

This is their old style primer carrier. They now come with an external hex shape rather than knurling.
The threads are 1/4x28 and the length of the exposed section extending back beyond the breechplug is .462".
If that's compatible with your requirements here's where to get one: http://www.hubbardsoutdoorproducts.com/
You may want to telephone... I heard someplace that their website is out of whack for ordering.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2008, 01:01:13 PM »

That's what I'm talking about I knew I saw them some where . What I am gonna do is just plug the breech plug enough to drill the hole for 25acp case then redrill the flame hole. Just waiting for and (I) drill bit.272 I think to get here that I ordered. kurt

Underclocked · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2008, 04:49:20 PM »

Anyone know the thread pitch of a 7/8" Huntsman breech plug off the top of your head? I too am interested in this project. I don't see why a plug designed similarly to that of the standard Encore would not work well.

Busta · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2008, 06:11:44 PM »

Quote from: Underclocked on April 03, 2008, 04:49:20 PM

Anyone know the thread pitch of a 7/8" Huntsman breech plug off the top of your head? I too am interested in this project. I don't see why a plug designed similarly to that of the standard Encore would not work well.

UC,

I just checked mine, it is a 7/8" x 20 TPI. I called Hubbards earlier today and he doesn't have any of the 1/4" x 28 209 adapters or the mag-spark adapters in stock. He said he might have some by June 1st, to call back then. It sounds as if he has too many irons in the fire right now. He also hasn't made any 209 breech plugs for the newer Huntsman/sidekicks, so no joy there either.

His 209 adapters would work, but the plug would have to be counter bored just a little to accept the adapter. It would also require drilling and tapping the 1/4" x 28 hole for the threads. I have 3 standard 7/8" NEF breech plugs right now and one .25 ACP Plug. I will be converting a couple to carrier-less 209 when Hubbard tools up to make the 209 adapters. He now uses hex stock, so removing the 209 nipple will be a piece of cake.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2008, 11:42:55 PM »

Busta,
Good info, Thanks for checking that out!

bubba · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2008, 11:50:54 AM »

I have been thinking sabout this. Why not a t/c 209 adapter? Part number 7805. The breech plug could be drilled out and tapped and a small area for it to sit in deep enough. Thread it in and pit a primer in it so it will close and the pin hit it. Been pondering this for a while. 12.95 for the part. Thread it back out to remove the brrech plug and if it works like it does in the black diamond, lots of times the whole breeech plug will come out all at once.

preventec47 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 31, 2008, 10:59:23 PM »

Sounds like a good idea using the off the shelf T/C part.
For anyone wanting to create new parts from blank stock,
initially at least I advise using hi strength steel stock like alloy
4130 or 4140 instead of any stainless steel as the stainless
steel is 3 or 4 times as hard to machine due to it's
characteristic work hardening during machining operations.

Later once the prototype has proven itself and production
is planned and corrosive susceptability requires it then go
ahead and work in the appropriate stainless alloy.

Busta · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2008, 07:21:23 AM »

Quote from: bubba on October 30, 2008, 11:50:54 AM

I have been thinking sabout this. Why not a t/c 209 adapter? Part number 7805. The breech plug could be drilled out and tapped and a small area for it to sit in deep enough. Thread it in and pit a primer in it so it will close and the pin hit it. Been pondering this for a while. 12.95 for the part. Thread it back out to remove the brrech plug and if it works like it does in the black diamond, lots of times the whole breeech plug will come out all at once.

bubba,

While that may work for ignition, the blowback would be bad, very bad. I am looking to convert a couple existing 5/8" - 18 TPI breech plugs to work in the new Sidekick. One has a bare sealed primer pocket, which is very desirable and recommended with BH209.

kody · « **Reply #14 on:** November 03, 2008, 07:44:24 PM »

Busta ,2 things; what is a "bare sealed primer pocket" and what are the avenues of escape that the blowback, you mentioned, follows? Ken

bubba · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2008, 01:08:21 PM »

never thought of that busta. Plus I had a machinist friend look into it and he said you would have to remove some of the face of the breech plug to allow the nipple to sit in far enough to let the action close. By removing the metal, it will make the plug weaker and possibly dangerous. So, I would not recommend anyone trying this.

preventec47 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2008, 02:50:59 AM »

Quote from: bubba on November 05, 2008, 01:08:21 PM

never thought of that busta. Plus I had a machinist friend look into it and he said you would have to remove some of the face of the breech plug to allow the nipple to sit in far enough to let the action close. By removing the metal, it will make the plug weaker and possibly dangerous. So, I would not recommend anyone trying this.

--------------
Dont be so quick to dismiss an idea that may have some merit. Any
issue of strength reduction requires an analysis of the stresses
placed during firing vs the capability of the design. An altering
of the design does not mean absolutely that the capacity
will be reduced below the stress level minus a safety margin.
Remember that in the muzzle loader almost zero thrust forces
are applied to the action at the primer location. The breech plug
itself is absorbing most of the thrust forces. With the use of
a 25 ACP case for instance with and proper head space, some
of the rear thrust could be transmitted to the case head with
zero stress occuring in that portion of the breech plug.

Busta · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2008, 05:38:14 AM »

Quote from: kody on November 03, 2008, 07:44:24 PM

Busta ,2 things; what is a "bare sealed primer pocket" and what are the avenues of escape that the blowback, you mentioned, follows? Ken

Ken,

Take a look at the recommended breech plugs from Western, they have bare sealed 209 primer pockets. Then look at the one on the right that is not recommended, the avenues for escape of blowback will be very obvious. The T/C 209 primer adapter/nipple is very similar to the not recommended breech plug. The slots are designed into these 209 adapters for the plunger ignition type guns such as the Black Diamond, the bleed-off of blowback is desired in these open breech guns as to not make the primer a projectile also, but with Blackhorn 209 powder it still can and will happen. In a sealed breech muzzleloader such as the Sidekick/Huntsman, the standing breech prevents rearward movement of the primer, but the slots on the side of the primer pocket will allow serious blowback to bleed off. I hope that explains your questions.

Go to page 3 of this brochure PDF for pic of breech plugs.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/brochure.pdf

kody · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2008, 10:54:05 PM »

Busta, I thank you again, I've noticed the slotted , spring-tensioned plugs and felt they were not what I wanted, and now you've identified them for what they are. Why the retainer spring in this type holder, and similar ones made by other mfrs. too,when the closed type manage without any? What have you found to be the best size and shape of the space immediately below the 209 primer? Ken

mcgiiver · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2008, 03:02:39 AM »

Here is my homemade version on the right in picture, for my older Huntsman. 5/8" socket removes plug easily. The plug on the left is an old style modified for a four pin spanner wrench

jjvw · « **Reply #20 on:** November 29, 2008, 06:38:05 PM »

mcgiiver- how does that homemade plug work with Bh 209?

mcgiiver · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:07:32 AM »

I haven't tried out the new plug. I don't use BH209 only Pyrodex P in my gun. I don't see a problem, must guns had reliable ignition with the #11's.

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2008, 07:20:37 AM »

Mcgiiver,
Is the plug on the left a #11 for the huntsman ??
I want to convert My standard Huntsman to #11.

Nick

mcgiiver · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2008, 02:48:02 PM »

Yes it is, its the plug that came with the gun. It was just modified for a four pin spanner wrench rather than the wimpy two pin that comes with the gun. Just to be clear here, the guns I am talking about are 1970's vintage Huntsman, not the newer varieties, .45 cal., .58 cal., and 12 gauge. .50 cal. wasn't invented yet.

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #24 on:** December 01, 2008, 01:05:50 PM »

I would love to use #11 caps in the modern Huntsman 50cal, would it work ?

Nick

mcgiiver · « **Reply #25 on:** December 01, 2008, 02:36:13 PM »

I am not sure, I have never actually looked at a modern Huntsman so I don't know what gthe firing pin looks like. On the old Huntsmans, the firing pin was a flat affair about 1/8" in diameter. I have no problem lighting off Pyrodex with the #11 caps, but maybe this BH 209 powder is harder to ignite.

Busta · « **Reply #26 on:** December 01, 2008, 07:57:17 PM »

Quote from: Slackdaddy on December 01, 2008, 01:05:50 PM

I would love to use #11 caps in the modern Huntsman 50cal, would it work ?

Nick

Slackdaddy,

See this thread, this is one way to do it.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124756.0.html

I also think I could screw in a #11 nipple into my Hubbard plug. I would still have to deal with the blowback, but maybe no where near as much since it would not be pushing out around the primer carrier.

Underclocked · « **Reply #27 on:** December 02, 2008, 04:56:28 AM »

For the 7/8" plugs, couldn't someone make threaded sleeves that simply allow the use of an Encore plug (or similar)? Or would that result in a weak plug?