6 Signs the U.S. May Be Headed for War in Iran

[powderman]

kev. Nothing to debate. You support the Godless ones and hate Jews, not hard to see that. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

Simple as that Powderman!

Kev, if you cn make it up here for the Bar B Que, I'll change that barrel for you on your Savage.

[ironglow]

Yes Kev;
  I have a pretty deep seated DISTRUST of Muslims;
  After the 3,000 murders on 9/11, the various beheadings, missionaries captured, tortured and often beheaded, Christian girls beheaded while going to school, Afghan parents being murdered for educating their little girls and teachers murdered for teaching them, planes, trains and busses bombed, soldiers tortured, helpless military captives beheaded..murder, slavery and massacre in Darfur, Sudan and throughout the world...and on..and on...and on...

   One would have to be a BLITHERING IDIOT not to be wary and distrustful.....DUH !

  BTW Kev: I have driven trucks often, with my work commitments..I also drove Jeeps, 3/4 tons, deuce and a halfs, APCs and tanks (M47, M48 and M41) for the Army...what did you drive while serving your country in the military ?

[zombiewolf]

Check this out.....


"Doubtless Iran’s government merits harsh condemnation, including for its recent actions that have inflamed the crisis. It is, however, useful to ask how we would act if Iran had invaded and occupied Canada and Mexico and was arresting U.S. government representatives there on the grounds that they were resisting the Iranian occupation (called “liberation,” of course). Imagine as well that Iran was deploying massive naval forces in the Caribbean and issuing credible threats to launch a wave of attacks against a vast range of sites — nuclear and otherwise — in the United States, if the U.S. government did not immediately terminate all its nuclear energy programs (and, naturally, dismantle all its nuclear weapons). Suppose that all of this happened after Iran had overthrown the government of the U.S. and installed a vicious tyrant (as the US did to Iran in 1953), then later supported a Russian invasion of the U.S. that killed millions of people (just as the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Iran in 1980, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians, a figure comparable to millions of Americans). Would we watch quietly?

It is easy to understand an observation by one of Israel’s leading military historians, Martin van Creveld. After the U.S. invaded Iraq, knowing it to be defenseless, he noted, “Had the Iranians not tried to build nuclear weapons, they would be crazy.”

Surely no sane person wants Iran (or any nation) to develop nuclear weapons. A reasonable resolution of the present crisis would permit Iran to develop nuclear energy, in accord with its rights under the Non-Proliferation Treaty, but not nuclear weapons. Is that outcome feasible? It would be, given one condition: that the U.S. and Iran were functioning democratic societies in which public opinion had a significant impact on public policy.

As it happens, this solution has overwhelming support among Iranians and Americans, who generally are in agreement on nuclear issues. The Iranian-American consensus includes the complete elimination of nuclear weapons everywhere (82% of Americans); if that cannot yet be achieved because of elite opposition, then at least a “nuclear-weapons-free zone in the Middle East that would include both Islamic countries and Israel” (71% of Americans). Seventy-five percent of Americans prefer building better relations with Iran to threats of force. In brief, if public opinion were to have a significant influence on state policy in the U.S. and Iran, resolution of the crisis might be at hand, along with much more far-reaching solutions to the global nuclear conundrum."

Exerpt from Noam Chomsky's "What if Iran Had invaded Mexico"

[ironglow]

TM;
  I wasn't trying to recite why Muslims were a threat to the US..even though they are. Kev accused me of hating Muslims..not quite accurate: so I listed just a few reasons why I DISTRUST Muslims.
  Apparently in most cases, Islam rules their lives ..so, go figure...

  Most on this forum..have already figured it out !

[ironglow]

Zombiewolf;
  I suppose you are aware that Noam Chomsky has little or no credibility with real Americans.. including most on this board. He is after all, the "Micheal Moore" of academia ! I would be a bit embarrassed to admit if I regularly read his drivel..

[powderman]

tm7. 911 never investigated??? The world watched as several groups of Godless, subhuman SOBS crashed planes into the twin towers, screaming allah akhbar, murdering 3,000 Americans and sending themselves to hell where they belong. Investigation complete. What part of that do you not understand??? Oh, I get it, the Jews and Bush did it, right??? POWDERMAN. 

[zombiewolf]

Zombiewolf;
  I suppose you are aware that Noam Chomsky has little or no credibility with real Americans.. including most on this board. He is after all, the "Micheal Moore" of academia ! I would be a bit embarrassed to admit if I regularly read his drivel..

I dunno, Chomsky sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Michal Moore, on the other hand, is definitely a waste of skin.
And his movies suck.

[ncsurveyor]

.............You and friends are in a distinct minority in and out of this country as believers of government crap.. ...............

I would disagree.

Perhaps a majority of the people you know believe in the conspiracy, certainly a majority of the people on the sites you visit, forums you frequent, etc, that cater to this theory believe the same way you do, so everyone else seems like a minority.

For the same reason that I would feel that people who are not Presbyterians are in the minority.

But I suspect that the majority of Americans feel the WTC was the result of militant Islams without collusion from the U.S. government.

Fanatics that interpret the word to be that of hatred, disillusioned because they have failed to achieve the success and freedom that is granted in the U.S. flew planes into our buildings.

Quack, quack.  Yep, its a duck.

[billy_56081]

"I dunno, Chomsky sounds pretty reasonable to me"

Hitler sounded pretty reasonable to the German people at one point too.

TM7 put on your tinfoil hat no one bleives in that "conspiracy" garbage except a few of the guys that rode the short bus.

[ncsurveyor]

ncsurveyor......nope don't think so.    Majority of Americans and 90% around the world don't think the event happened as the US government's official conspiracy account says.  That seems to be the case...look into it

So 9 in 10 people I know, or have contact with, or listen to on radio or TV - think that our government had a direct involvement?  Not a chance!

Again, 9 out of 10 people you know, or have contact with, or listen to on radio or TV - think that our government had a direct involvement.

Why would anybody worry about our 'success and freedom' when they believe in earnest that is is these so-called freedom and liberties and excesses that will indeed be the end of us.  Your conclusion is based on a phenomena known as 'narcissitic social nationalism':  i.e. thinking that other cultures desire to be like us and become aberrant when they can't therefore...kind of conspiracy theory in its own.

My thought is that people desire freedom regardless of their religion or country of origin.  People covet what they do not have, pure and simple.  And, when motivated, they hate those that have what they don't.  The fact that they say they think these things will be the end of us is an excuse for engaging in bringing about that end.  I try to determine why nations that do not hook the feedbag up to Israel, (Spain and france), are dealing with Islamic extremists also.  Oops, I forgot, Nato, right?

Sure, we westerners live to excess, but do you think for one minute if we all led a conservative lifestyle (not republican, just not extravagant) and were able to still move about, worship as we chose, help a friend, etc etc, that certain people wouldn't see that as a threat to the millions they oppress and fire them up to fly a plane into a building somewhere?  Maybe they will still decide to bomb the children of other less warm and fuzzy muslims, and use women with autism to carry bombs.  That's not a conspiracy, that's hate.

And simply because some of the knowledgeable folks you know or read came up with a term for it ('narcissitic social nationalism') doesn't mean its fact.  Its an opinion supported by perception only.

When are people going to realize that because a group of "experts" get together, already biased by their commonality, and coin phrases and support each others theories, all they are doing is creating culture.

Political culture, media culture, conspiracy culture, anti-semitism, prejudice.  Like a self feeding and self defeating prophecy.

Perhaps the Israelis are paranoid because everyone is out to get them?  I might get cabin fever if I was surrounded by people that wanted to kill me.

[myronman3]

my son wrote a story, he called it "what would you do?"   

if tommorrow, i waved a magic wand, and every weapon that the muslims had would vanish; no bombs, no knives, no guns, not even rocks to throw.  what would israel do?    i would wager that they would enjoy the peace and quite. 

 now, say i waved that same wand,  and instead,  every single weapon israel had would vanish instantly.   what would the muslims do?    i'll tell you.  they would over run israel, kill everyone they could get their hands on, mercy wouldnt exist. 

  muslims aint happy unless they are killing or dying; and i am more than happy to help them out with one of those.    they have been fighting someone or another for thousands of years.   desert glass sounds good to me.   

 i want my peace and quite

[powderman]

my son wrote a story, he called it "what would you do?"   

if tommorrow, i waved a magic wand, and every weapon that the muslims had would vanish; no bombs, no knives, no guns, not even rocks to throw.  what would israel do?    i would wager that they would enjoy the peace and quite. 

 now, say i waved that same wand,  and instead,  every single weapon israel had would vanish instantly.   what would the muslims do?    i'll tell you.  they would over run israel, kill everyone they could get their hands on, mercy wouldnt exist. 

  muslims aint happy unless they are killing or dying; and i am more than happy to help them out with one of those.    they have been fighting someone or another for thousands of years.   desert glass sounds good to me.   

 i want my peace and quite

All true. Sad. POWDERMAN. 

[ncsurveyor]

NC...

So 9 in 10 people I know, or have contact with, or listen to on radio or TV - think that our government had a direct involvement?  Not a chance!

Again, 9 out of 10 people you know, or have contact with, or listen to on radio or TV - think that our government had a direct involvement.

.
Not exactly what I wrote.  

My fault. I misread and jumped.

But I hold to the thought that a majority of Americans do not think that way.

The problem is that I rely on interpersonal discussions within the elusive "silent majority" and you are reacting to conspiracy theorists, which by nature are more outspoken.

Theocracies that have been in open war for millenia are problematic.  They are not serving in peaceful coexistence.  And if one solicits that peaceful coexistence is not obtainable, then they should back off our military involvement.  It can't be had both ways.

Terrorism, via grassroots hit and run does not bother me (been there, done that, no T-shirt), what bothers me is that its done against us, and rather than accept the fact that there are evil people out there that need to be dealt with, people fall into two groups.  1) they say we should show them more love and they will change their ways, OR 2) they mask the fact that man, as a unit, can be evil, and blame it on specific people (a few power brokers) so that they can still feel good about the human race in general.

If you sleep better thinking that the world is crap because of Israel, and our support of their power brokers, so be it.

But that's not the reason we will be at war with Iran.  Its because some evil people are directing them to attack us and build nuclear weapons.  And they are using their religion to foster it.

[myronman3]

  drop a bomb, then hold a news conference and only say "anybody else?"   if some moron opens their mouth, bomb the capital of that country.   then hold another news conference and ask "anyone else?"   

  they see us as weak.  sympathizing with them,  showing them more compassion,  giving them more chances only makes us appear weaker to them.   it would only embolden them.   
   
   i dont care how we got here.  i know the path out of this crap, ya just have to decide you have the balls to do it. 

[bighemidaddy]

Myronman3
I"ll 2nd. that,we could help then in the dying department.


bighemidaddy   

[billy_56081]

Well said Myronman!

  What TM7 and the others do not understand is that the US and Isael are right and the muslims are wrong in thier actions. Islam is a cult, the people following it are brainwashed and evil to the roots. They have no compassion or toleration for others.

  TM7 I do not know your religious affiliations if any, what I do know is that if you were to go to Saudi Arabia or ny other predominently Muslim nation you would be killed or imprisoned for your beliefs. Anyone who appears to have as adavanced of an education as you and cannot see what Islam is must not have even the tinyest lick of common sence.  There is no 9/11 conspiracy, the NWO is a dream of grown men who still live in thier mothers basements.  A majority of Americans do not believe that 9/11 was an American plot. You are wrong! You need to get out in the real world and see the sky.

[deltecs]

I've read this entire topic from front to end.  It seems to me to be a lot of baiting and personal attacks to others, while stating an opinion.  I think, and IMO, we need to temper our personal posts a bit more to limit these types of comments.  I've stated my personal beliefs, conclusions, and convictions, several times on this topic, attempted to persuade others to my point of view, and have tried to stay clear of baiting and personal attacks.  GBO has the best outdoor forum and I for one would not like to restricted from using this site.  I try to read the rules and standards of the forum at least once a month, lest I too, forget my manners. 

[ironglow]

Myronman;
  You didn't happen to state your son's age..but it is no matter. That is a concise, brilliant exposition of the situation even for an adult..if he is a youngster..kudos to him !

   Kevthebassman;
  You accused me of not being able to drive, so ignoring civilian experience, I went directly to the military vehicles I drove APCs, 5 ton wreckers, deuce &1/2s, m41, M47 & M48 tanks with proficency in on board weapoons systems..
   The; i asked for your experience with military vehicles (esp fighting vehicles)....I have yet to hear from you...Why not ? It's your chance to boast of your driving prowess !!

   Zombiewolf & Billoy;
             I mentioned that Noam Chomsky has little credibility with most here...Zombiewolf says " i don't know, Chomsky sounds pretty reasonable to me ".

   Let's look at Noam Chomsky:
 
       Noam Chomsky is a Jew..and a Jew hater.

         "          "        denies that the "holocaust" ever occurred.

         "          "        calls the state of Israel a "military occupation".

         "          "        accuses Israel of practicing "apartheid" ( I suppose Iran & Syria doesn't !! Of course, Jimmy Carter agrees with Chomsky)

         "          "        Began a visit to Lebanon. He recieved a "heroes welcome" and effectively became a propagandist for the terrorists.

         "          "        On this same visit expressed support for arming Hezbollah  ( Against a UN resolution and all common sense)

                     Chomsky supports Anarchy and anarchist movements..he is basically an Anarcho/ communist.  He said " the Bible is the most genocidal book in history !" 
          ...he didn't, at the time , comment upon the Koran...
  He hates big business, the wealthy (claiming they made it on the backs of the workers)..But curiously, Chomsky himself, is a milliomaire that lives in a mansion in  exclusive Lexington, Massachusetts.

   For those not acquainted with Chomsky..there is the  Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting for America.. you can go to their site..on the left border (where else ?).. and do a search for    <   Chomsky  >  you will get the REAL lowdown on this nutcase with tenure at MIT..


                                              www.camera.org/

   

[powderman]

MYRONMAN. Good post, agreed.
tm. Hard to annex land Israel already owns, God gave it to them. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

TM7;

   I don't support any "parties"..but it doesn't take a great deal of deductive effort to see where the problem springs from. Just read the  short story that Myron's son wrote;
  Things pretty well explain themselves.
  I prefaced my link with a couple statements of common knowledge. Nevertheless; one need not take my statement seriously if they wish not to, they can just follow the link for much info..

  Even though Chomsky sounds "quite reasonable"to some, most, reading just what Chomsky is about...may well disagree with that conclusion...

[ironglow]

  We have seen Israel " give land for peace" several times over...and still the Muslims attack..

[kevthebassman]

Yes Kev;
  I have a pretty deep seated DISTRUST of Muslims;
  After the 3,000 murders on 9/11, the various beheadings, missionaries captured, tortured and often beheaded, Christian girls beheaded while going to school, Afghan parents being murdered for educating their little girls and teachers murdered for teaching them, planes, trains and busses bombed, soldiers tortured, helpless military captives beheaded..murder, slavery and massacre in Darfur, Sudan and throughout the world...and on..and on...and on...

   One would have to be a BLITHERING IDIOT not to be wary and distrustful.....DUH !

You no doubt distrust the Muslims. (as do I)  But you also hate them with a burning passion.  I distrust the Chinese (and everyone else, for that matter) but I don't want to turn their cities into radioactive wastelands. 

You regard Muslims as animals and wish to kill as many as possible.... that's hate where I come from.

For 40 years, we aided and abetted murder and genocide in the mid-east. 

We put murderous thugs into power and gave them the means to kill other peoples, all in the name of our ideological struggle with the Soviet Union. 

After the first Gulf War, we encouraged the Shi'a and Kurds in Iraq to revolt against Saddam, then hung them out to dry as Saddam massacred them. 

The CIA propped up a brutal and elitist regime in Iran until it finally crumbled under the weight of the opposition it produced.  Then, in the name of repressing this movement, we gave Saddam Chemical weapons and satellite photographs of the places he should use them.

Considering our history in the mid-east, 9-11 was an inevitability.  With our current foreign policy the way it is, we've got more coming to us that no amount of bombs or bullets is going to stop.

 

BTW Kev: I have driven trucks often, with my work commitments..I also drove Jeeps, 3/4 tons, deuce and a halfs, APCs and tanks (M47, M48 and M41) for the Army...what did you drive while serving your country in the military ?

Red Herring.  Your military service is wholly irrelevant to this discussion. 

  drop a bomb, then hold a news conference and only say "anybody else?"   if some moron opens their mouth, bomb the capital of that country.   then hold another news conference and ask "anyone else?"   

  they see us as weak.  sympathizing with them,  showing them more compassion,  giving them more chances only makes us appear weaker to them.   it would only embolden them.   
   
   i dont care how we got here.  i know the path out of this crap, ya just have to decide you have the balls to do it. 

You're out of your mind.  If we started that, I, and a large number of the people in this nation (and no doubt much of the military), would go into open rebellion.  That is if the Russians don't launch after our first one goes off.

That's not how our nation works, thank God.  You cannot simply go around using nuclear weapons on everyone who disagrees with you.  Would you shoot someone in the face with a shotgun if they told you they didn't like something you said?  Would you burn down their house with their family inside if they looked at you wrong?  Why should our nation work like that?

[billy_56081]

  OK Kev, so should we just pull back and leave the Muslims to thier own affairs? Do you really think for one second they will leave us alone? Come now! Can anyone be that lost? The whole premise of thier sick cult religion is subjegation. In Islam you are either a believer or you are an infidel. Go to Saudi and tell them you are not Muslim and want to preach the word of Jesus. You will either be killed or imprisoned. They are not the religion of love. They are a cancer on the world, and if being against this cancer is hate , well then put me first in line to be a hater!

[ironglow]

  Whoa Kev; Let me speak my own words..I think I have a better grasp of my THOUGHTS than you do. I never said I hate them, never said turn it into a waste land..
  Never said all Muslims are animals..never said kill as many as possible (in spite of some of them wanting to kill as many "infidels" as possible).
   Please; let me speak my own words..I'm the one that's thinking them up !

   ...And please, tell us who "we" is !  Note; I am only asking you to clarify YOUR OWN WORDS..

  Driving record:
    You brought the subject up..accusing me of not being able to drive anything..so I answered. Proud of my time in tanks, APCs and deuce & 1/2s..
    Again; here's a chance to display your versatility in driving and military experience.

   Land for peace:
   You haven't given a retort to the short post I made concerning that subject. The Sinai Peninsula, much of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip etc..
    all in a promised "land for peace" agreement.  They got their land as promised, but the treacherous ones attacked AGAIN before the ink was dry !
    Even a rattlesnake warns before he strikes..especially the hand that was just kind to him.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. Well said Sir. Israel has given up or lost over 1/2 of what God gave them, I doubt he is happy about that. You can't negotiate with scum whose cult teaches them to murder, lie, cheat, and steal from all non muslims. Satan used mohamed to do his dirty work. The goal of islam then, now, and forever, is world domination and the destruction of Christianity. Their goal is to destroy everything that Jesus Christ taught, and built. They are ALL a Godless cancer on the face of the world. Every convert to islam is a soul lost to God, and gained by satan himself. Jesus preached love and forgiveness. Their mohamed preached hatred and death. I bet kev voted for kerry, whatta ya think?? POWDERMAN.

[kevthebassman]

  Whoa Kev; Let me speak my own words..I think I have a better grasp of my THOUGHTS than you do. I never said I hate them, never said turn it into a waste land..
  Never said all Muslims are animals..never said kill as many as possible (in spite of some of them wanting to kill as many "infidels" as possible).
   Please; let me speak my own words..I'm the one that's thinking them up !

I apologize, that was Billy.  I had your posts confused.

   

...And please, tell us who "we" is !  Note; I am only asking you to clarify YOUR OWN WORDS..

I answered this question in an earlier post:

In some instances, the United States.  In other cases, the west (the US and Europe) collectively.  If you cannot tell by the context of the sentence you should ask nicely and I'll specify. 

 

  Land for peace:
   You haven't given a retort to the short post I made concerning that subject. The Sinai Peninsula, much of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip etc..
    all in a promised "land for peace" agreement.  They got their land as promised, but the treacherous ones attacked AGAIN before the ink was dry !
    Even a rattlesnake warns before he strikes..especially the hand that was just kind to him.

Again, that's Israel's problem.  India and Pakistan are constantly at each other's throats over land, so is about half of Africa.  When did we take it upon our nation to be the world's police force?  I don't remember voting for that referendum, so by what right does the government take my tax dollars and give them to foreign people in a foreign land?

I want our government to look out for our people.  Citizens of the United States first, everyone else second.  When we have affordable (NOT FREE) college education, affordable (NOT FREE) health insurance, roads in decent shape, borders secure and illegals expelled, gasoline problem fixed, social security solved, and our national debt paid off, THEN we ought to worry about Israel and the rest of the world.

We could protect our nation a whole lot better if we would use some of that money we're spending in Iraq to protect our borders and track down people overstaying their visas.  Still, we created a mess in Iraq and we ought to fix it before we bug out.  But what's certain is that we have no business getting into further entanglements in any part of the globe while we are $9 trillion (and growing) in debt.

[ironglow]

Kev;
  I can agree with some of you positions but I have a bit of trepidation over pulling in our borders and influences. if we choose the route of isolationism, we lose the chance to grow and influence the world. Many nations & terrorist groups would like us to completely collapse. If we were to harbor any doubts about this hatred (more often
  it is envy) for our nation we have only to listen to the fat, little Hitler in Venezuela.

   TM7;
  I appreciate your efforts with that post from Knox Seminary..but it does nothing to reinforce your position. It sounds as if those 100 "evangelists", who we don't know
  have bought into the error of "replacement theology"..which most real evangelists rejected long ago. If there were a hundred that signed ..there are thousands upon thousands that would tell them they are mistaken.

  Besides; Knox has it's own problems..a problem often present in the "hierarchy" type churches.  Just do a Google search for   <  dispute at knox seminary  >

    The document could have been penned somehow as an argument in the dispute...

[kevthebassman]

Kev;
  I can agree with some of you positions but I have a bit of trepidation over pulling in our borders and influences. if we choose the route of isolationism, we lose the chance to grow and influence the world. Many nations & terrorist groups would like us to completely collapse. If we were to harbor any doubts about this hatred (more often
  it is envy) for our nation we have only to listen to the fat, little Hitler in Venezuela.   

Ironglow, we are a mighty nation.  Power over this earth such as ours has only been seen by the likes of Rome, Alexander the Great, and Great Britain.  The problem with great power is that it is easily abused and causes great resentment when it is not used wisely.  I don't advocate total isolationism.... there are times when our intervention in world affairs is necessary.  The two World Wars were perfect examples.

We have been foolish in the accumulation of so much power, and in the use of our power.  Our military is larger than is necessary for the defense of our nation.  We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on new weapons systems with little oversight or transparency, which leads to wasting taxpayer dollars that could be better spent elsewhere, or better yet, given back to the taxpayers!

Our imprudent use of power is evident in our past and current mid-east policy, as well as President Clinton's seemingly random bombing of Aspirin factories and small Balkan nations, as well as the ill-fated foray into Somalia.  Lets not forget our numerous invasions of South American countries as well as the hypocritical and pointless embargo against Cuba.

The point I'm trying to make is that our foreign policy is ham-handed.  We've been charging around like a bull in a china shop since 1946, and our allies are getting tired of it.

[myronman3]

sounds like reverse pyscology to me.  he is trying to bugs bunny us.