Author Topic: How safe are tube magazines? (Read 1594 times)

sport240 · « **on:** July 14, 2003, 04:47:19 PM »

Just wondering about this? The other day I was toying around with ammo and even with flat noses, I noticed that the tips really sit directly on the primer of the forward cartridge....for some reason I always thought that being a flat nose it partially rested on the case itself around the primer!?!? I had never really checked...suddenly I got a little worried, would a drop, a fall or any rearward impact of the rifle be enough to ignite the forward round in the magazine since it sits on the primer?

Sport240

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:21:03 AM »

I know we taked about this recently, but I can't find it.
There was a test done in a recent Gun Digest, where the author loaded a Marlin tube mag with spire points, and detonated the back one. All he succeeded in doing was to set the bullets ahead of it deeper in their cases. Didn't even hurt the tube.

I still consider the practice unsafe, as does the author of the article.

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** July 15, 2003, 04:47:30 AM »

Sport - Johnny is right in about that particular test with the Marlin magazine and his own position that he considered the practice of loading spire points into a levers tube magazine unsafe.

I will always err on the side of safety but for technical purposes please understand that in a tube magazine the cartridges do not stack flat with one on top of the other - the test he mentioned showed that the bullet nosed down while in the tube, it did not rest flat against the forward primer.

OK, that was only one test - but I'm sure not going to attempt to duplicate it. I don't think it is a safe practice. Mikey.

jhm · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2003, 11:29:16 AM »

In over 40+ years of fooling with guns and knowing maybe hundreds of other hunter/shooters I cant ever say I heard of a shell going off in any of the tube fed rifles in question but I would be willing to bet that any of the people I know and myself included would NOT load a rifle that to say they did it and nothing happened, stay safe and use flat points and if you have to use spire points settle on a 2 shooter, thats what I do with a Savage pump 30-30 I have around here somewhere.

JIM

Oldtimer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2003, 03:49:58 PM »

I have a reloading manual around here somewhere that warns against loading flatpoint FMJ bullets in a tubular magazine rifle, because of the danger of detonation. Most of the calibers in lever actions with tubular magazines won't really benefit from using spitzers, which are usually designed for higher velocities. If you have to try a spitzer, load one in the chamber and one in the magazine.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2003, 04:40:16 AM »

I wouldn't worry about it.

For one, there's no indication that even spire-points will ignite the rounds in the magazine. Probably because most people aren't stupid enough to load spire points into a tube mag.

For two, even if the flat point does contact the next round's primer, the flat point has more surface area and won't dent the primer. It would be like trying to drive a nail into wood head-first instead of point-first. Look at it this way, when you seat a primer during reloading, you push directly on the primer with a flat surface.

For three, even in the freak event that it WOULD go off, I suspect you would be startled but not badly hurt. A magazine tube is not built like the barrel's chamber. I doubt that sufficient pressure would develop to send schrapnel at lethal velocities.

CJ · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2003, 12:51:38 PM »

Consider the sheer #s of tube magazines out there and the time span they have been around and think "have I ever heard a reliable report of one blowing up". I havent. The test was interesting reading, but I still err on the side of safety. Dont see much use for a spire point or full metal jacket .35 rem anyway. When I want to shoot pointy ones I opt for a Savage99 or my BLR.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2003, 02:51:09 PM »

I asked a similar question last year myself.

I make .35 calibre bullets with pointed (metallic) pneumatic tips, and thinking that they may be useful in the .356 Winchester, I developed a variation that has a flat (slightly concave) tip. This tip has a diameter of.210, which is the same diameter as a primer. My concern was that since bullets don't necessarily line up perfectly with the bullet ahead, I might get magazine discharges. I measured the meplat of Speer 180 grain fp's, and they were about .170, and I know these are used in the .356.

It was my understanding that a primer could only be set off with compression at the centre - where the anvil is located, and that the slight cupping of my tip would be an advantage.

I posted the question on several boards, and received such a mixture of opinions on the safety of these bullets, that I've backed off the project (at least for now). About 70% of the responders thought it would be OK, but the other 30% made me concerned. I really think these things will be OK even in the heavy recoiling .356 (as opposed to the .35 Remington), but I have no idea how I can establish that as a fact.

I'm not really trying to hijack the thread, but if any of you have any ideas that could help me, I'd appreciate them.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:30:04 PM »

Hey Rick, have you looked at a Barnse X for the 30-30? Big hollow point about primer diameter, and solid copper.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2003, 03:16:17 AM »

Tube mags are safe as a skunk in church IF you stick to RN or FP bullets with a good bit of lead exposed. I would not use FMJ of any design. There was a well documented rash of blowup of Ruger and Marlin .44 mag carbines in the mid-70s from reloaders using FMJs. I also would not use HPs with jackets that extend to the nose of the bullet.

Something that folks do not seem to grasp is that doing something and having gotten away with it does not mean the practice is safe. Safe means it works all the time, not just for a few hundred or thousand shots.

Tube mag explosions are not about generating lethal velocities out of the tube. That's the least of your worries since the rifle shoulda been pointed ion a safe direction in the first place. The big worry is the tube rupturing, shattering the fore end and taking off fingers or a whole hand. I've seen pictures of some mighty wrecked rifles from a tube mag explosion.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2003, 03:58:41 AM »

Can you post some?

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2003, 07:07:13 AM »

Quote from: John Y Cannuck

Can you post some?

Nope, John. Mid '70s was way before the internet and I don't keep my magazines that long.

NRA Tech staff oughta have some and I know another fellow to ask.

sport240 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2003, 05:03:25 PM »

Who ever said anything about pointed or spitzer bullets?!?!

What I was actually asking about were regular's..flat noses...round noses...how did this thread get high-jacked into thinking that spitzers were the issue???...I KNOW THAT SPITZERS DO NOT GO INTO THE MAG!!! The basis of my question was about flat-noses connecting with the primer of the forward round...

BTW...I'm not stooooopid....

Sport240

w30wcf · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2003, 10:51:20 AM »

sport 240,

There is an IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE (!) between the shorter pistol cartridges and a .30-30 rifle cartridge. If you lay a .30-30 and .32 -.45 caliber pistol rounds on a table end to end, note the difference on where the nose of the bullet contacts the round in front of it.

Since it is longer and a smaller caliber, the nose of the .30-30 will rest more on the the rim of the forward cartridge. The .32-.45 caliber pistol rounds being shorter and bigger in diameter compared to their length, will line up more against the primer which is not a good situation with round nosed bullets.

As an example of this back in the late 60's or early 70's Ruger came out with a tube fed semi automatic carbine chambered in .44 magnum. After at least one fellow blew out the magazine when using full patch round nosed bullets, Ruger issued a stern warning not to use round nosed fmj bullets in that rifle.

With regards to the .30-30, it has been factory loaded with round nosed and flat point bullets since 1895, some of them even being full metal patched. Because the bullet nose rests more against the rear of the case and not on the primer, there have never been any problems. If there were, the ammunition manufacturers would have stopped loading them long ago.

Hope that answers your question.

w30wcf

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2003, 03:32:41 PM »

Quote from: w30wcf

sport 240,

With regards to the .30-30, it has been factory loaded with round nosed and flat point bullets since 1895, some of them even being full metal patched. Because the bullet nose rests more against the rear of the case and not on the primer, there have never been any problems. If there were, the ammunition manufacturers would have stopped loading them long ago.

Hope that answers your question.

w30wcf

I think they did. At least I ain't seen no full metal patched .30-30s of recent vintage.

Lemme know if I'm wrong about this.

marlinman93 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 27, 2003, 12:52:46 PM »

Tube magazines are horrible! They're extremely dangerous, and you guys who have them should send them all to me for disposal! I will gladly send you 10 cents on the dollar, or better yet, just pay your postage, so you wont be out the shipping!
I will keep all mine, as I have no fear of tubes at all, and plan to shoot until they kill me!