Author Topic: wussy-itis (Read 1982 times)

myronman3 · « **on:** July 14, 2003, 05:19:29 PM »

awhile back i got tired of getting slammed by my 454rb. so off i go and get a sbh. then a hunter. recoil was a big step down. i tried to go back to shooting the casull one day and just couldnt do it accuratly.
so i finally get around to farting with a reduced load for the 454 today. i tried 12 grains unique under a 300 xtp. what a difference! seemed accurate enough and clean burning. i will have to chrono it to see if it is acceptable velocity.

TScottO · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2003, 06:15:02 PM »

I'm a pretty slim guy, 6" 180#. When I first started shooting these big guns I had a heck of a time managing the recoil. I'm such a light weight every time I touched off around my whole body would move. Talk en about hard to shoot a good group when you have a flimsy foundation in the first place. The recoil intimidated me. After a while of concentrating on overcoming the mental aspect 'that the recoil wont hurt me' my groups shrank considerably. As far as shooting mechanics go, if you do have a weakness, these big guns will surely bring them out. Once the mental aspect was taken care of the biggest thing that helped me was using one of those grip squeezers to strengthen my hands and wrist. After a few cylinders full my grip would get weak making it hard to shoot decent groups consistently. At that point the gun would recoil hard into the web of my hand making a nice bloody raw spot. At the present time I'm able to touch off 25-30 rounds or so of 400gr @ 1300fps from a .475 before my grip starts to weaken to the point of raw spot. Things are getting better, but I still have a ways to go. The biggest thing is not to think scared. As long as someone thinks "something" will get the best of them, you can be assured the "something" will win every time.

Scott

Robert · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2003, 07:46:40 PM »

..is to fix the problem. The RIGHT load is the accurate load, can't hit crap with your eyes closed.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:02:39 AM »

recoil is mostly a mental thing once you get over the fact that the gun is just noisy and isnt really going to hurt you it will be alot easier and if it does start to hurt put it down and shoot something lighter once you aquire a flinch its tough to get rid of. When I first started handgun shooting I thought a .357 kicked like a mule! But mostly it was just the noise. Now I have no problem cranking off a couple hundred .500s or .475s I have even had my girlfriend shooting the big guns. She was never told that they can hurt you and was coached in proper grip and respect for them. She doesnt exactly love shooting them but will shoot a round or two occasionally now and has even asked to touch one off occasaionaly. Funny thing is with me is that I have more problems now with hard kicking rifles then I do with handguns. To me they can actually hurt when they pound your shoulder.

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2003, 04:52:05 AM »

i guess my point is that i have been shooting full power 454 loads when the biggest thing i am likely to shoot is a black bear. finally the light bulb went on, and i figured it was time to develop a reduced load for the gun. since getting the blackhawks, the r.b. has mostly set on the shelf. and i like to shoot my guns. shooting "light" loads ( i am aiming for 44 mag performance levels) has rekindled my interest in shooting this gun. i am using less powder, shooting up to my standards, and not getting slammed by the gun everytime. besides, once the bullet blows through, the rest of the energy is wasted. i guess i am just surprised by how long i have been stubborn. :oops:

les hemby · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2003, 05:12:25 AM »

to my way of thinking bigger may be better but except maybe the big bears theres not anything 44mag cant kill with right load and i wouldnt feel un-armed in big bear country with 44 if i ever go hunt a freight train i will probably get 454. but i am in no way an expert :toast:

kciH · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:58:26 PM »

Myronman,
you should be able to load the Casull to hot .45 Colt levels in that RB and have a real pussycat for a revolver compared to the .44 Mag, with signifigantly less felt recoil. There are lots of good loads for this level of power, and it'll give nothing away to the .44 in any case.

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2003, 01:01:10 PM »

My first 44 mag was a T/C it like to crush my hand, could not shake hands for a week after 5 cont. rds. Now I am back to the 44mag, I have a 7.5 sbh with pac grips, a Taurus 8.75 m44 ported and these are ok for me to shoot at the range. Then I got into a Ruger Redhawk 5.5 with grips and trigger job its nice but factory 240 grn sting. Now iI realize that on the hunt this recoil will probably not register. I like to reload and test these loads, so target loads are some thing I don't do. My redhawk is my primary carry gun in the field. After reading on Elmer Keith I went to 44sp loads on the top end, and it works fine.
Jim

pjh421 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2003, 09:21:32 PM »

Gun design is a factor. Like Jim said, the Contender can do a number on you. A buddy of mine had one when we were stationed in CA. I made him some nice-shooting "mid-range" loads and some "barnburners" as he liked to call them. This particular gun was a 10" .44 magnum. I don't know what possessed him to do this, but he absentmindedly dumped the light loads in with the heavy loads. It was kind of funny, and at the same time rather annoying. We just figured we'd better shoot them up so as not to run into problems later. This gun would recoil so hard that the rear of the trigger guard would injure your middle finger. In a better designed gun, these loads would not have caused as much distraction.

The next biggest factor might be your expectation of getting hurt. Douglas MacArthur coined the phrase, "The anticipation is greater than the realization." Maybe he plagarized it but it rings true when shooting. If you look at another shooter firing a hard kicking handgun, notice the total movement of the gun. It just doesn't amount to much. Grip the gun firmly, press the trigger and let the gun do what it's going to do. It will kick and move the same amount whether you are tense & nervous or calm & relaxed. Choosing the latter, the difference will be that, one, you will enjoy the shooting much more and, two, your bullet will likely be free of the barrel before you are able to jerk the sights out of alignment with the target. The discharge should surprise you. You should not attempt to control exactly when the gun will fire in less than emergent situations. Obviously if a lion is flying through the air with the intention of eating you, it's appropriate to maybe put up a wall of lead. In nearly all other instances you would probably do better to focus on breath control, relaxing, aiming/sight alignment and finally, squeezing the trigger. The gun will fire but that is not your prime concern. Focus on the other things I mentioned and your bullet will cut through the target before you know what happened.

Once in a while you run across someone who knows someone who stuck their face up too close to the rear of a 1911 slide or shot a rifle with their eye pressing against the occular lens of the scope. This is rare. Most shooters don't get injured by firing their guns. Just recognize the recoil and muzzle blast for what it is and that doesn't amount to much. We take harder hits playing basketball and backyard football.

Paul

kciH · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2003, 09:47:37 PM »

I used to shoot a 10" octagonal 44Mag in the T/C with 300gr full steam loads, it made ANYTHING I've ever fired in a handgun seem like a pussycat. This GD thing would bruise the palms of your hands with rubber grips!

ssmith_1187 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2003, 02:41:11 AM »

Lloyd hit the nail right on the head, recoil is such a mental game.

I like to think about it like this…the punishing effects of recoil will come after the bullet leaves the barrel. Therefore, I need to put all of my concentration and energy into executing the shot FIRST, above all else.

Steve

Questor · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:01:47 AM »

Myronman:

Your change in loads was the best thing you could have done. There's nothing "wussie" about it. Those reduced loads will kill deer just fine.

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2003, 04:00:43 AM »

when i first got the 454 i was shooting 250 grain xtp with 36 grains h110. they rocked. and i shot them well. i continued to shoot them well; then i got a blackhawk and got used to the lighter trigger and lighter recoil. when i stepped back up to the 454, the different trigger and harder recoil really played hell on me. i am a very accomplished marksman and know full well the fundamentals of shooting and handling recoil. i am surprised that i had such a problem given my experience level. so i figured the best thing i could do was lighten up the load and get back on track to accurate shooting.
the older i get, the more i continue to learn.

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2003, 04:10:07 AM »

Fellas: let's not forget about the grip. I have shot some of the big boomers and once mentioned to the GrayBeard that a man should know his limitations - and I do. I'm not an overly large or heavily muscled guy, I don't have wrists the size of hillary clinton's ankles, and unlike some of ya'll, I can take only a limited amount of pounding (sausage not included).

My biggest bore handgun is a 44 magnum and my favorite is a Smith and Wesson Model 29-2. It carries the 4" Mountain Gun tapered barrel. It is fairly lightweight for a 44 magnum and will tweak my wrist after too many loads. The biggest problem for me isn't the wrist business, it's the grip shape and the pain it imparts to the web of my right hand, just forward of my right thumb-joint.

The piece carries a pair of Buffalo Horn grips by Eagle Grips, which is just fine for a cylinder or two of even the heavier loads but after that, the ol thumb is cooked and my grouping goes straight to, well, you know.

If I take off the nice grips and put on a pair of old S&W smooth target grips I can just about shoot up a full box of heavy loads without going 'ouch' too many times. If the darn gun didn't look so neat with the small Buffalo Horn panels (grips) on it I would opt for something more conducive with my State of Wuzziness.

I see fellas spend tons of hard earned dollars for the gun of a lifetime yet they rarely seem to consider how well the grips will function for them and mainly stick with what came on the gun. It would seem to me that if you are going to spend that much money for a revolver or pistol, you should have a set of grips that work as well for you. Forgive my blathering but I just felt it necessary to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. Mikey.

pjh421 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2003, 01:18:19 PM »

I sure don't shoot full power loads all the time. Its hard on my reloadable brass, my beloved guns and you just can't shoot as much as when you load them down a bit.

I didn't mean to lecture about the basic fundamentals like you don't know how to shoot. I was just letting you know what I do when I know I'm going to experience some pain but for some reason I still want the bullet to hit the target.

Just what makes her ankles so darn big? Its a source of national embarrassment. I'll bet you Laura Bush's ankles aren't anywhere near that stout.

Paul

Bullseye · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2003, 05:42:13 PM »

Lets also keep in mind that in a lot of calibers the max. loads are not even the most accurate loads. Go for the accuracy, hopefully it is an easy to shoot load.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2003, 03:38:56 PM »

At hand gun ranges, the max load just may not be the best load in a 454 anyway if your aiming for deer and black bear. Slowing it down may in fact give you better bullet performance on thin skinned game. Like you said earlier, if your hot loads are passing thru anyway and can still go thru a oak tree, all that energy is waisted and not needed.

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2003, 04:03:59 AM »

OK, guys, it's time for you to stop feelin' bad about your recoil sensitivity...I was out at the range yesterday afternoon (nicest day in SE Wisconsin all summer...if you don't live here, you missed somethin'!) and some fella I didn't know was all set up, poppin' away with a little lever-action .22 LR rifle. I didn't pay much attention for a while, and then I noticed...he was wearing a wussy pad! Cripes! I own a wussy pad, too, but I use it for long strings with my .54 percussion (and I mean long strings!) and .45-70 matches when I might blast off 40-50 rounds; or when I'm doing sight-in work for the club before deer season. But a .22? Come on! Most .22s you have to pay attention to know when it's fired.

kciH · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2003, 11:28:31 AM »

Charlie Detroit,
I wear my wussy pad while I'm shooting my .17 HMR, while I'm letting my .340 Weatherby cool down.

I also like to wear it when I shoot a SKS or AK from prone because the stocks are so darn short..

Charlie Detroit · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2003, 03:51:35 AM »

Don't you just hate those short stocks? I've got one on my Win'94 carbine. It's real hard for me to shoot, but not because of felt recoil (after all, it's just a thutty-thutty), but it's hard to aim the thing when your trigger hand is practically in your armpit. I could use another 1"-!½" of pull on that puppy...a crescent buttblate would be nice, too; I'm always pulling the gun off my shoulder when I cycle the action.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2003, 09:13:58 AM »

Since most of us aren't going to Kodiak Island or Zimbabwe anytime soon, what do we need with loads that use a 300+ grain bullet at 1500fps when a 250 gr at 1200fps will shoot completely through all the deer and most of the elk we'll probably ever see? I too like to be the newest with the neatest, but old age and reality are creeping upon me, and I am seeing more and more toys that truly won't ever accomplish anything tht I can't already do. Sometimes its terrrible to think that those new 454s, 475s, and 500s will do things that you just don't need done. Really it only messes up your dreaming about new toys. Maybe not. After wearing out a good 44 mag, I got to dream about builing the perfect 44 Spec on a heavy 357 frame. Worked out pretty well since I've only carried it for 20 years and nothing has run from it yet. But if only I had bought one dual cylinder Single Six, a dual cylinder 45 Blackhawk, and a Contender along with my loading tools, imagine over the years how much money I could have saved...

ROB · « **Reply #21 on:** July 23, 2003, 02:08:07 PM »

The legendary Elmer Keith did most of his practice with light loads. That enabled him to shoot a lot to develope " muscle memory " without fatigue. He shot the hot ones just enough to know what to expect when he needed them. The key was he shot a lot. Rob

MePlat · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2003, 04:22:31 AM »

I do not buy the myth of using much reduced loads to learn to handle recoil. reduced loads will help with learning sight alignment, trigger control, and shrinking your movement area but as far as handling recoil you have to experience it to handle it then it is 95 percent mind control. a 44 mag or a 454 will not hurt you. learn to handle the recoil of these guns by using your mind to do so and you will be far better off. flinching is a product of being afraid of recoil and i don't care how well you can shoot a powder puff load or a 22 rimfire it is what you can do with the big boys that count and when it come to recoil mind set is paramount.

train your mind not your body when it come to handling recoil. just think you have already shot the big boy and evidentally your still alive to type on the computer. that ought to tell one something. right?

think about it.

myronman3 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2003, 05:35:41 PM »

well meplat, i agree on some of what you say. mainly, one ought to practice with what he is going to use. and these reduced loads are exactly what i intend to shoot deer with. when i say reduced loads i am talking a 300gr. xtp @ 1000 fps (that is soon to be a 300+gr. hardcast lead bullet @1000fps). reduced from top 454 levels; but non-the-less potent enough for whitetails or black bear (i might bump them up a bit for bear when the time comes). reduced? yep. still enough? you bet.
now i just cant see why anyone should endure the full recoil when they only need half the power. all you are doing is burning (wasting) more powder, throwing a bigger flame, and taking more punishment than need be. i guess if a guy wants to it is his business. i dont.
i was ready to send my gun down the road in favor of a milder caliber and decided to try a less potent loading just for kicks. i am glad i did because the gun is a fine one and these loads have breathed new life into my interest in the 454 casull.

MePlat · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2003, 12:02:57 AM »

myronman3: Sorry you thought I was questioning the power of your load. I wasn't. I, in my own opinion, think if I own a 454 I want near top end performance even for tin cans. Not absolute top end but near top end. I have 3 44 Mags for lesser power.
As I have said before these guns are not for learning or for an afternoon of plinking. They are for people who can already shoot well to begin with and who just want to stay use to the recoil of the gun and shooting a few rounds ocassionally will do that.
I had a RB and shot mostly hopped up 45 Colt loads in it but they were above the 44 Mag powerwise by a goodly amount. Even with full loads the RB is an easy gun to shoot.
I just was making a comment because I have seen many recommend people using much reduced loads or dropping back to a 22 rimfire or even dry firing when someone is having recoil problems but that is a deceiving piece of advice to give people because when they go back to the heavy recoil the problem still exists. If it were true we could just shoot the much cheaper 22 rimfire and then go to the 475 Linbaugh or even a more powerful gun and be a tackdriver with it. But it doesn't work that way.

That was what I meant. As far as killing deer you could load a 300 gr to 700 fps and kill deer with proper shot placement.

Just my opinion though but what do I know? Not much thats for sure.

myronman3 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 27, 2003, 01:05:43 PM »

hey meplat! i cant argue with that at all! btw, i chrono-ed these loads today (300 gr. xtp over 12 grains unique out of a 6 1/2 inch rb) and was getting 1155 fps. it is a breeze to shoot and plenty accurate. my new adopted load for venisons. bears i will use the hot ones. i took a few hot ones today and they dont seem that bad after 'warming up' with the lighter loads. i also chrono-ed my 44 mags and my 310 cast clocked 874 fps which is a bit slower than i was aiming for. but you say they will kill with good placement, eh? which would be o.k. with me because i can really put them in there with this load (3 1/2 inch group at 75 yards!).

TScottO · « **Reply #26 on:** July 27, 2003, 02:00:56 PM »

I shoot a 410grwfngc plinking load, according to reloading data, shoots ~ 850fps. This load prints 5" groups off bags at 100yards. Matter of factly speaking this load passes slam through a 200# hog at 25-30 yards on a broad side shot. Honestly I think it would pass clean through at 100 yards also. However I'd prefer something a bit faster for a full time deer hunting load.

A lot of people adhere to saying if a bullet passes through at 850fps that the bullet has done all it will do. Just as if the same bullet passes through at 1200fps. What do yall think? Is the extra velocity just wasted energy? Or would the extra velocity impart more shock to the animal aiding in a swifter kill? You don't hear much about the "shock affect" with handgun loads. Does the "shock affect" play apart at handgun velocities enough to really consider?

I know shooting a faster load makes me feel more confident.

Scott

Mikey · « **Reply #27 on:** July 28, 2003, 08:52:05 AM »

TScott0: I have read, within the past year, a short take on your last post. Basically, what the author said was that increasing the velocity of heavy 44 magnum and 444 marlin bullets does not increase their effectiveness.

I do not know if animals really understand the notion of either 'shock effect' or 'hydrostatic shock' (that the M-16 was supposed to be famous for and to be very honest, that 5.56mm M-16 concept didn't seem to work very well early on in it's career even at close range and from postings I've read recently, that hasn't changed). If an animal is hurt it just tries to get away from whatever caused the pain and if injured fatally will run until it drops. I think humans, on the other hand, react more to the visualized rational of 'Oh My Gawd, I've been shot - I'm gonna die', notion, even if it's a non-mortal injury.

You can try this yourself by filling some water jugs - add some small wood chips to increase the density of the contents - and fire some different loads through them. If one just plows through and through without disrupting the entire contents while the other really shakes things up or blows them apart, you might have found your answer.

Or, take a box and place a large garbage bag in it and then fill it with water and freeze it. This is similar to shooting at the frozen water in a frozen waterfall. If the bullet penetrates in but then bounces back out when loaded to slower velocities but blasts on through when loaded faster, that will also answer your question.

Just wanted to add my 2 centavos. Danke! Mikey.

willis5 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 28, 2003, 01:58:36 PM »

I know not all of you read Outdoor Life because of it's bias towards comercialism or what ever, but did you see the article in this latest issue (august) on knockdown power? it presents a theory explaining how animals who are shot willeither drop stone dead or run off. They say that when a bullets enegy hits the animal at the same time that the animal's heart beats, this produces an ultra high pressure in the vascular system causing brain hemoraging(sp).

I know this is a bit off topic, but...
By the way, My 454 RB scared me a little when first sho i. I thought "Damn, did I just waste my money on a gun I will be afraid to shoot?" I fixed my problem by shooting with my head down away from teh arget, and just shooting. I wasn't worried about flinching, I was letting the blast suprise me. I got used to the gun and now I am shooting 3" at 75yards (which I won't complain about)