Hand-loads for the 30-30 in a Bolt action

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

      During a thread here the question of hand-loads of higher performance in a suitable rifle came up. For several years now I have been using 130 grain Spire Points loaded to around 2800 fps in this bolt action rifle with excellent accuracy. Likewise the box of Sierra Flat Point 150 grain bullets in hand-loads proved very accurate but the two factory Winchester loadings of 150 grain weight prooved inaccurate in both HP and Silvertip type. Hand-loads using Hornady 150 grain round nose bullets so far have not provided suitable accuracy using the same sort of loads with the H-335 powder used for the other loads.

     This got me thinking as to why this should be plus I was asked how many re-loads I got out of a case with these high pressure rounds. Something which I couldn't answer as for some reason I had not made notes on the number of reloads. So to correct this and try and find an accurate load with the Hornady round nosed bullets I got out a part box of Winchester factory ammunition that had four rounds left so 16 once fired cases. These were sized then trimmed to 2.028" primed with CCI 200 primers and loaded with a maximum book load of BLC-2 powder from the Hodgdon's #26 manual. The bullets were seated so a light crimp could be applied into the cannulure on 9 of the cartridges and the other 7 were left uncrimped.

      The cartridges will be fired tomorrow (Sunday) at the clubs 75 meter range to see how they group. The powder was changed as I wondered if the burning rate of the H-335 was not right for the bearing surface of these bullets but I should add that so far I have not found a good load for these bullets in a 308 rifle either. I will see if I cannot get another make of 150 grain round nose or even flat point to load up as a comparision. I will also fire the remaning 4 factory Winchester rounds into a target for comparision and will take a few handloads with the 130 grain bullets and fire a group with them into a target so a comparision can be made as to grouping so let's hope I am shooting well tomorrow as I have not been well enough to go shooting for several weeks now.

   Oh the rifle is fitted with a 6x42 scope and if the customer had not ordered it in 30-30 would more have likely been built as a 243 or 308 so the action is designed to handle far higher pressures than I am subjescting it too. Instead of my normal high pressure loads I am starting with a book maximum so I can work up from there hopefully finding an accurate one at an ellevated velocity, somewhere around 2700-2800 fps would be ideal but that's not set in stone. The original data I worked with came from a Petersens Rifle Shooter article called "Maximize the 30-30" it was a couple of years later that I stumbled across thsi rifle as a Bisley show and the wheels set in motion to acquire it that turned out to be rather involved and finally meant I acquired 4 rifles off the chap and sold him 3.

[rickt300]

Even though you have a strong action the stretchy 30-30 case really wasn't designed for much more than 40.000 psi. I know you have been doing it for years but even a 130 grain bullet at 2800 fps sounds pretty stout to me. Starting with max loadings is never a good plan. My 30-30 kills well with a 150 grain bullet pushed to a mild 2250fps and you couldn't ask for better bullet performance.  I am working on a load using the 165 grain Ballistic Tip and using IMR 4320. Nice shooting and hopefully I will use it on a deer or a hog sometime.

[Brithunter]

Sorry but I don't swallow the weak brass theory! it was true originally with Balloon headed cases but with the solid base cases unless they are very, very thin at the juncture of head and wall then the case will handle the same pressure as any other case design. As for starting with the maximum book load well it's not my normal practice but seeing as how the loads I have normally been using are way above the book loads, I am actually starting low and working up. If I want to use this rifle and cartridge in Scotland  the velocity needs to be 2450fps minimum and producing a minimum muzzle energy of 1700 ftlbs now allowing for temperature and load variations to be safe I need to get at least 2600 fps as it's fairly warm right now at about 55 degrees F and I live at sea level. Scotland is not only higher in altitude but also often a lot colder. I have been there is August when all of a sudden it started to hail and by the time it stopped there was 2" of ice on the pavements.

In my rifle I cannot use any longer bullets than I am now as they will not feed through the magazine and as it has a full length Mauser type extractor the cartridges must be fed from the magazine I did try to load some other type bullets one time but they just don't look right being so deeply seated that there is a gap between the case neck and bullet ogive not to mention that the bullet is protruding into the powder space.

[Dave in WV]

If you need more power from your 30-30 have a gunsmith cut the chamber to 30-30 AI (Ackley Improved) . The AI version has less body taper, the shoulder is moved forward,  and the neck is shorter. You increase powder capacity with this wildcat modification.

[jager]

Hi Brithunter - interesting experiment you are doing! I have a Savage 1899 in a 30/30 and have been working with the idea of finding a good load with "spitzer" bullets. Thus far, 36.0gr of "Varget" with a 130HP Speer has given me right at 2450fps out my 26" BBL. I've tried 35.0gr of H4895 with same bullet for 2460fps, as well.  While velocity may be increased, the accuracy in my rifle with both loads are superb. I tried increasing the H4895 load using a 125HP Sierra (temporarily ran out of 130's), but found extraction starts to get a bit "sticky" (about 2600fps) and had to back off. Of course, you have a much stronger action than mine. I am also limited on extraction "port clearance", which limits my C.O.A.L. to 2.555. By-the-way, I first tried the Remington factory 150gr load in my rifle with tremendous result; 2450fps (avg) and 1 3/4" group with iron sights at 100yd (about as good as I can do). While I tend to accept your premise on brass strength, I believe  Federal brass is "thicker" than Remington or Winchester (less volume, less powder, same velocity). I haven't run any "longevity" tests on the different brands of brass to date. I've also not fired any 30/30 brass to "failure", mostly because there are no loads listed in most reloading books above SAMI specs; that's why your data is of most interest. While I'll not subject my old '99 to any "high pressure" loads, I am certainly interested in any improvements that can be gained through judicial loading for this fine caliber. Thanks, Jager

[Siskiyou]

I find your efforts of interest as I have been shooting the same 30-30 Marlin for many years.  I have fired a variety of factory 30-30 ammunition in it.  The rifle is equipped with 4X scope.  Early test with it back in 1968-69 indicated that Federal ammunition was the most accurate in a shoot off between Federal, Winchester, and Remington ammunition. 

Reloads made up using IMR4320, CCI 200 primers, and the Hornady 150-grain round nose proved to be more accurate then factory ammunition.

A few years back I obtained a good supply of 150 grain Federal, Winchester, and Remington ammunition and again fired for accuracy.  My expectations were that Federal would again prove the most accurate, but the factory Remington 150 grain C-L provided to be the most accurate.  I then stocked up with a few boxes of the Remington ammunition on sale at Wal Mart. 

I returned to the reloading bench and loaded a bunch of Remington C-L bullets in front of IMR4320 using CCI200 primers.  The reloads using IMR4320 proved more accurate then any of the factory loads.  I am starting to think that load density maybe a factor.  The common factory visible to the eye is the very similar form of the 150-grain Hornady round nose and the 150-grain C-L.

I believe my Marlin 336 has a 1-in-10-twist barrel, while 30-30 rifles from other manufactures had 1-in-12 twist barrels.  This could be a none issue.

When I look back on my efforts to find an accurate 30-30 hunting load I found that the loads from all three manufactures provided what many would accept as hunting accuracy.  But the nature of the reloader is going for the greatest accuracy he can obtain.

A check on the 30-30 using a 150-grain bullet in a Lyman manual shows your chosen powder to give the highest velocity.

My assumption is that your rifle has a box magazine and crimping of the bullet is not critical.  You might want to check and see how far out you can practically load the bullet without contacting the lands and still have enough bullet in the neck to retain it under recoil.  You might gain a little powder capacity and accuracy by loading the bullet out the width of the cannelure.

 Currently I have a good stock of 150-grain bullets from Hornady, Speer, and Remington.  I have never loaded any of the Speer bullets in 30-30 so I have no measured results.  Based on field performance the manufactures have the 30-30 bullet down pat.  I think from field results, and cost the Remington C-L is tough to beat.

From your post I believe that you are trying to obtain factory .300 Savage velocities from your 30-30.  In the hands of family members the 150-grain Remington Pointed C-L has produced a number of deer kills.

Looking forward to your results.

[rickt300]

I wasn't talking about the case head, but the brass in front of that web.  The case design itself does not lend itself well to high pressures either, long tapered cases never have.    However a good action with tight headspace could maybe go a couple grains above listed maximums but you wouldn't gain enough to matter. I like the 30-30 for its flexibility in lighter than factory loadings.   

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

     Interesting comments here:-

I wasn't talking about the case head, but the brass in front of that web.  The case design itself does not lend itself well to high pressures either, long tapered cases never have.    However a good action with tight headspace could maybe go a couple grains above listed maximums but you wouldn't gain enough to matter. I like the 30-30 for its flexibility in lighter than factory loadings.  

     Sorry but your off base here and I suggest you look at one of the highest pressure rounds of all time. Namely the .280 Ross who's proof pressure was 28 tons for comparision the proof pressure of the 270 Winchester is only 19 tons.

Back to the 30-30 and my particular rifle, in this rifle I can only use Winchester cases as the bolt face recess is ground to take Winchester cases and only Winchester as the case head diameter of Winchester cases are undersize. I had considered having the bolt recess opened up but have not gone any firther as costs here get high quickly.

     So yesterday I fired those remaining 4 Winchester factory rounds left in the box of the 150 grain HP that I used the 16 cases for the new hand-loads. I fired them at a target on our clubs 75 meter range and to my amazement the four shots went into a group 1 1/4"!!!! This shocked me as they have never shot like this before and I have a couple more boxes of this ammo and I will repeat the test on my next range visit because if .............. if they shoot like this then they can be useful and not just a source of brass. I first fired some of my normal high pressure 130 grain loads from a cold clean barrel and the first two shots went wide the final 3 of the five fired made a group of 5/8".

      Firing the new hand-loads with the Hornady 150 grain RN bulelts and BLC-2 powder also proved to be the best ever fired with this bullet in any of my rifles. The load performed better with a light crimped applied using a Lee factory crimp die and the best two 3 shot groups were 0.09" and the cases show expansion at the web the same as the Winchester factory ammunition at 0.4175" using a set of Digital calipers. I will re-check this measurement using a proper micrometer and make notes of the sizes. Some of the cases had slightly smoked necks so the cases will be re-loaded with a poweder charge of BLC-2 increased by 1 grain of that of the first group.

   Now in answer to points raised by Siskiyou, the magazine dictates the length I can laod to and yes my rifle has a Mauser type staggered box magazine and also a full length Mauser extractor so loading from the magazine is required. I loaded some cartridges with a crimp applied by a Lee factory crimp die and some without as a direct comparision and the ones with the crimp made a group nearly half the size of the uncrimped ones so it looks the crimp is a good idea. I will load a few of the next ones without a crimp and try them again to see if it happens again. As for the increased velocity I have not set any aims as to cartridges to be compared against but I remembered reading the article in Petersens Rifle shooter and saw that much improved performance was possible and a velocity of 2600 or more would mean that I can safely take the rifle hunting in Scotland and having already achieved 2700fps with the Sierra 150 grain Flat Point bullet and taken Muntjac Deer with this load I cannot see why the Hornady bullet cannot get somewhere close to this. The BLC-2 power charge used so far gives a good loading density but there is still some air space and to see how much space 36.0 grains would take up I just went and loaded one of the cases I fired yesterday and the new charge comes to the base of the neck so with the bullet loaded to a COL of 2.545" there is still room for the powder to be shaken. Oh the case grew 0.004" in sizing and firing for it's second reload.

If you need more power from your 30-30 have a gunsmith cut the chamber to 30-30 AI (Ackley Improved) . The AI version has less body taper, the shoulder is moved forward,  and the neck is shorter. You increase powder capacity with this wildcat modification.

   Dave this is a non starter not only would it mark the beautiful blacking job on this custom rifle but the costs are prohibative. I had a P-14 Centurion sporter from Century Arms modded to .303 IMP and it cost nearly $400 US. Then of course feeding might be problematic from the magazine which is set up as is the action for feeding the tapered normal case so it's not an option in this rifle. I have considered doing the improved in a Martini which is a project of mine but that to may fall behind a wildcat that I am working on based on the 303 British case.


   Now comes the need for a chrongraph to prove the velocity gains and once I reach those goals with the accuracy I want it might be time to stump up the cash to take soem of my hand-loads to teh Birmingham Proof House and get the pressures checked to see what they actually are and rmove the guessimation part. This is a service avaialbel but not that cheap, I think it would cost about $100US to get five cartridges checked and report issued. Previously I borrowed a friends chronograph but he now lives 200 miles away since my move so it's about time I got my own.

[rickt300]

It's funny you would mention the Ross in a positive light as it was made famous for rifles being blown up and it's users getting reduced to dead by lions.  Case head thrust is increased by tapered cases. I have never seen a Ross case in real life but I bet the brass in front of the web is much thicker than that of the common 30-30 case. Many who pressure up the 30-30 often reform 375 Winchester brass for the reason it is thicker and heavier.  I have loaded thousands of round for my various 30-30's some of which were bolt rifles and Contender single shots.  At .004 per shot lengthening the case just how many shots do you think it will take to weaken that case?  Typical lever actions allow case stretching of at leas .006 per shot with full power loadings, some rifles even more.  If I was using once fired or new brass you could get away with somewhat heavier loadings but the question remains; is it worth it?  Of course I look at it from the perspective of having a .308, and a 30-06 so more power from the 30-30 does not appeal to me.  I think the 30-30 is a nice medium range deer rifle and plinker, nothing more or less.

[Dave in WV]

Brithunter , on a bolt action rifle cutting the chamber to 30-30 AI the barrel may not need to be removed. The reason is since the case head spaces on the rim the brass will blow out fine without the crush fit needed with rimless cartridges.

You may wwnt to order a Load Book for the 30-30. They are cartridge specific and have data from all of the US bullet and powder companies.


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat601672&id=0003193210759a&navCount=1&podId=0003193&parentId=cat601672&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IJ&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601672&hasJS=true

[Brithunter]

Hi All,
 
      Well rickt300 I do know something about the 280 Ross and have few rounds of factory ammunition. Now you mention two different problems acssociated with the Ross, firstly we will deal with the deaths caused by using the wrong type bullet. Remember we are talking about the very begining of time as it relates to real high velocity, the 280 Ross fired a 140 grain bullet at 3100fps and this was 1906, in fact they even had the infamous 0-500 yards because it was thought that the one sight could cope with any shot out to 500 yards of course we know this is daft but at the time it was reasonably thoguht that such a high velocity really could straighten out the trajectory enough to make this possible. As to blowing up guns, well there were those who with dificulty managed to assemble the bolt og the M-10 wrongly enabling it to be fired with an unlocked bolt however there seems to be only one relably recorded event of this happening the rest are just rumours. Blow up guns did occure but this was with other actions being used for cartridges providing more pressure than the action can handle. The Mauser M98 cannot handle the pressure of the original Ross cartridge abd Eley bros ever introduced the 280 nitro which used the Ross case but loaded to a lower pressure for thsoe who wanted a 280 ross but had to have the Mauser action.

  As for 308 and 30-06 yes I have them too but that is no reason to restrict the usefulness of these hand-loads in the 30-30 and if you like think of it this way, I get almost equal velocity but with less powder which means the 30-30 is actually more effcient than the other two.


     

Brithunter , on a bolt action rifle cutting the chamber to 30-30 AI the barrel may not need to be removed. The reason is since the case head spaces on the rim the brass will blow out fine without the crush fit needed with rimless cartridges.

You may wwnt to order a Load Book for the 30-30. They are cartridge specific and have data from all of the US bullet and powder companies.


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat601672&id=0003193210759a&navCount=1&podId=0003193&parentId=cat601672&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IJ&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601672&hasJS=true

   Even Ackley recommends turning the shoulder back before re-chambering to his improved cases AND we still have to consider the feeding of the cases from the magazine and as for reloading mauuals I already have several which I use the one cartridge ones you speak I have seen but not been impressed by.

[billy_56081]

If you are getting velocity almost equal to the 308 win or 30-06, please don't shoot next to me at the range! If you have access to have your round pressure tested, please do and share the info.

Now for some good loads for a non tube fed 3030 I like the 130 grain Hornady Single Shot Pistol bullets. My daughter has used them in her Stevens 325to take black bears and wild boar. But unfortunately I believe Hornady has discontinued them.

By the way many actions will take much higher pressure, but with higher pressures barrel life drops dramaticcally.

[Siskiyou]

What is the barrel length of you bolt action 30-30?

[Brithunter]

What is the barrel length of you bolt action 30-30?

   From crown to breech face it's 25" measured using a cleaning rod.

If you are getting velocity almost equal to the 308 win or 30-06, please don't shoot next to me at the range! If you have access to have your round pressure tested, please do and share the info.

Now for some good loads for a non tube fed 3030 I like the 130 grain Hornady Single Shot Pistol bullets. My daughter has used them in her Stevens 325to take black bears and wild boar. But unfortunately I believe Hornady has discontinued them.

By the way many actions will take much higher pressure, but with higher pressures barrel life drops dramaticcally.

    So what your saying is that cartridge like the 243 & 308 have short barrel life? The receiver ring measures 1.420" in diameter and this is the bolt:-







as you see it's of a Mauser trype and I suppose that you don't feel safe with cartridges and rifles shooting such normal cartridges as 270, 243 nor 308 next to you on the range?

  Although I have not seen the Hornady I did pick up a box of Sierra 135 grain Single shot pistol bullets and did try a few and then seem to shoot well enough. As for getting the hand-loads proof tested that will take some time as first I have to work up the new loads as I want the 150 grain loads as well as the 130 grain loads tested. Then make the appointment and get the funds sorted out to pay for it. I am now on a very limited income and things like new tyres for the car are needed and then the transmission needs a service as when cold it's difficult to get into park.

[Siskiyou]

I was thinking you might have a long barrel rifle.  Your goal of achieving higher velocity compared to my 20-inche carbine barrel is easier to reach.  I think a target velocity of 2600 feet per second is reachable.

I have not fired over the Chrony with my 30-30 but I have with a .300 Savage 24-inch barreled Remington M722.  A factory load that is advertised at 2670 fps gives an average of 2430 fps at 6700-foot elevation.  I have experience similar reductions in actual velocity with some factory .270 ammo. At the same location I am achieving 2670 fps with a 165-grain bullet.  Like you I am trying to get a little more from an old factory round.  My load is still within the publish maximum in the Hornady manual.


Hornady has listed a 130-grain Spire Point bullet in .308 since Charlton Heston parted the waters of the Red Sea.  A couple of my childhood friend’s father was a County Trapper.  His work and fun rifle was a Savage 99, which he used on all kinds of critters including a few black bear every year.  His load consisted of the Hornady 130-grain bullet pushed by surplus 4895.  The point being the bullet has a proven track record on game up to and including deer and bear.  Hornady list the 130-grain bullet for varmints and medium game.  I have a box of them

Speer also offers a couple of 130-grain bullets in .308.  Speer also warns against hot loads in the thin wall 30-30 cases in bolt-action rifles such as the Remington 788.  The cases are the issue, not the bolt-action rifle.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000033020

“I am actually starting low and working up. If I want to use this rifle and cartridge in Scotland the velocity needs to be 2450fps minimum and producing a minimum muzzle energy of 1700 ftlbs now allowing for temperature and load variations to be safe I need to get at least 2600 fps” 

Two items may give you the best bang for the pound, a Chrony, and Sierra Bullets Infinity software.  The Sierra software gives you a wide selection of bullets from different manufactures to compute the results you obtain from your Chrony.  According to the Sierra program the 130-grain Hornady bullet will give 1951 pounds of energy at muzzle with the 2600 fps muzzle velocity.  I use these two products to judge my loads and I think they have enhanced the experience over the years.

The Hornady 150-grain round nose at 2400 feet per second will give 1918 of energy at muzzle out of a 20-inch barrel.  In theory you should gain 20 feet per second or more velocity per additional inch of barrel.  A muzzle velocity of 2450 fps will give you 1998.9 foot-pounds of energy.


You are efforts with the bolt action 30-30 in a sense parallel my efforts with a bolt action .300 Savage.  The base round in both cases are around older lever action rifles.  I have taken my rifle to the published maximum and stopped.  I have found some data that indicates that I can add more powder and achieve slightly higher velocities.  But I have decided to stop where I am. 

I have admired the pictures of you rifles that you have posted so I know you have a number of options.  You can easily meet the standards for the hunt; it comes back to how far you want to push the case, and the rifle.

[coyotejoe]

Well, Brithunter, I'm still waiting to hear about case life. Not that it is an issue in itself but as an indication of how much you are stressing the brass. My own experience with hot loads in the 30/30 is that primer pockets enlarge rather quickly and case trimming is required after nearly every loading. But that is just one rifle, one lot of Remington brass, and Alliant RL-15 powder.

[Brithunter]

Well I am working on the case life now. So I can be accurate I got 16 once fired cases from a new box of Winchester ammo and are working with them. As for primer pockets enlarging I cannot say i have noticed any doing so and the stretching I have noticed is caused by re-sizing and not the firing. I measure the trimmed and then fired case before re-sizing and then afterwards. The sizing stretched them 0.006" as they actually shrunk 0.002" in firing from their trim length. We will have to see how they do after this trip to the range and firing off the new higher loads of BLC-2 later this morning as it's 01:13 as I write this.

[Dave in WV]

Here's Hodgdon's site: http://www.hodgdon.com/

4895 looks like it may be a good choice for the .308 & 30-30. I didn't know you had such a nice and well made 30-30. I agree the feed rails may be a problem with the 30-30AI. If going for a higher than normal pressure load, neck sizing may prolong case life.

 

[Brithunter]

Well I shot the test loads today and again the crimped rounds made a much smaller group than the un-crimped rounds. Now the 37.0 grain charge improved the accuracy over the 36.0 grain loads. I shot 11 rounds into a group of 1.6" with 8 of those making a nice rounded group of 3/4" #9 takes it to 1.050" with two shots lower which may have been me or could just be a slight velocity variation and normal for this load only further testing will tell. On firing the cases have shrunk in length by 0.002" but will I am sure stretch upon sizing. Primers are still rounded at the edges although this is not an accurate indication of pressures as I am sure you are aware.

Meanwhile for the next reloads I will increase the powder charge by 1/2 a grain to 37.5 grains and retest them for accuracy and pressure signs. So far the expansion ring is at 0.4175"  just wish I knew what velocity it was giving!

On another note I enquired about a chronograph and the pro Chrony now retails at £102 ($200 US) which is nearly double what I recall them being when I last looked into getting one. Now of course I wish I had then.

[T.R.]

This is an older Stevens with tasteful bolt handle and trigger guard.  Savage 340 did not have these features.

I've had very good results from the 125 grain Sierra spitzer bullet.  Sierra techie told me this bullet is intended as varmint bullet for 30-06 and .308 but I found that it performs like a big game bullet at 30-30 velocity.  WIN 748 is an older powder; you might receive better velocity with ACCURATE powder or RE-15.

TR

[Brithunter]

Yes it must be said that your Stevens looks much better than the Savage 340's I have seen.