Author Topic: The coming food catastrophe  (Read 5539 times)

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Offline billy_56081

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2008, 04:50:55 PM »
"good post dixie dude. and i encourage everyone to buy as much direct from a farmer as you can"

  What are you going to grind some corn meal and refine a little oil out of the soy beans?  I don't know what they farm around you but its pretty rare to see anything but corn or soybeans in southern MN. How many of you so called experts even live in a farming community? French intensive farming? If you aint getting 180 to 200 bushells of corn per acre on this 3 to 5 thousand dollar an acre land you aint gonna be in buisiness long.
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Offline FourBee

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2008, 04:57:40 PM »
ms;          I thought about your thread this morning while reading today's Fort Smith, AR Times Record.    WalMart's  'Sams Club' made a statement that a limit of  4 bags of rice will be sold per customer due to a worldwide shortage.   And in California flour has been added to the limited sales.  SO, I searched the WEB and came across this - - - - - - - -

4/17/2008              Herald  Tribune
   Spurred panicked hoarding in Hong Kong and the Philippines, and set off violent protests in countries including Cameroon, Egypt, Ethiopia, Haiti, Indonesia, Italy, Ivory Coast, Mauritania, the Philippines, Thailand, Uzbekistan and Yemen.

In the last quarter-century, rice consumption has outpaced production.  More than 90 percent is consumed in the countries where it is grown.

The Deniliquin mill, the largest rice mill in the Southern Hemisphere, once processed enough grain to satisfy the daily needs of 20 million people. But six long years of drought have taken a toll, reducing Australia's rice crop by 98 percent and leading to the mothballing of the mill last December.

Voice of America News  04/02/2008
   Bangladesh is seeking three million tons of rice and wheat, in the next several months, to counter the lingering effects of a devastating cyclone amid soaring prices for staple foods. VOA Correspondent Steve Herman, in our South Asia bureau in New Delhi, reports Bangladesh is hoping purchases from India and donations from the United States will meet some of the pressing demand.
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Offline zombiewolf

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2008, 05:50:05 PM »
U.S rice shortage?    Bullpucky!




NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Although warehouse retailers are limiting specialty rice sales, industry experts say U.S. consumers shouldn't worry that there's a shortage in the making.

On the contrary, production of U.S. rice - which makes up the lion's share of domestic consumption - is expected to increase between 3% to 5% this year to about 198 million hundred-weight (hundredweight is a unit of measure equaling to 100 pounds).

That's a sizeable improvement over last year's mostly stagnant growth, according to Steve Martin, an agricultural economist with the Delta Research and Extension Center at Stoneville, Miss.

Martin said he was "puzzled" by media reports that said both Costco (COST, Fortune 500), the No. 1 wholesale club operator, and rival Sam's Club, a division of Wal-Mart (WMT, Fortune 500), were restricting how many bags of rice people could buy.

Sam's Club said Wednesday it was following the lead of other retailers in limiting customers to four 20-pound bags of "imported jasmine, basmati and long grain white rice." The store said there were no restrictions on smaller-size packages, on sales at Wal-Mart stores, or in New Mexico and Idaho.

Costco could not be reached for comment.

Martin and other experts said basmati and other varieties whose sale is restricted represented "specialty" rice, and not the mass-market rice that's primarily consumed in the United States.

"The mass-market variety is the long, medium and short-grain brands like Uncle Ben's that's produced here in the U.S.," Martin said, adding that there's no expected shortage in those varieties.

David Coia, spokesman for the U.S.A. Rice Federation, a trade group that represents the domestic rice industry, offered a similar assessment.

"There is no supply crunch for rice in the United States," Coia said. According to Coia, domestically produced rice makes up 88% of the U.S. market. And that's only half the crop - the other half is exported.

"The bottom line is that there is plenty of rice in the U.S. and there's no need to panic," Coia said.

So then why did these retailers place these restrictions?

Martin speculated that the move is tied to global concerns, specifically recent actions taken by major producers such as India to ban some rice exports.

India is the second-largest rice producer after Thailand, and one of the leading producers of the aromatic basmati rice variety.

In early April, the Indian government announced a ban on exports of low-grade, non-basmati rice that's essentially produced for domestic consumption, in an effort to control a surge in local food prices amid tightening supplies.

"There's no shortage of rice in India, but our buffer stock of rice has fallen. This means we could be going into the danger zone," said Dr. Amit Mitra, secretary general of the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry (FICCI).

What's more, Mitra said this was happening at a time when global commodity prices for grains had "shot through the roof."

"So India would be reluctant to import rice to supplement its buffer stock because of the high global prices," he said.

At the same time, Mitra said the forecast for this year's rice production in India was good, tied to what is expected to be a robust monsoon season in the country. He said the Indian government had not banned basmati rice exports.

Still, he suspects that U.S. retailers were probably concerned that because of the general rise in rice prices, "these retailers' ability to get imported rice at cheap prices will be constrained."

Dr. Robert Zeigler, director of the International Rice Research Institute, a leading rice research center based in the Philippines, told CNNMoney.com that emerging markets such as India, Thailand, Vietnam and China - all major rice producers - have seen sharp surges in consumption driven by economic growth and changes in food consumption patterns.

"But at the same time, these countries haven't really invested in the infrastructure and R&D, and that's led to plateauing of [rice] production growth," Zeigler said.

"There is a downtick in global rice supply and this could be making these retailers nervous," he said. "The bigger challenge is the global food price inflation."

Meanwhile, makers of some popular U.S. rice brands said they aren't concerned about a supply-demand imbalance in the United States.

"We are not worried about supply," Bastiaan de Zeeuw, CEO of Riviana Foods Inc. wrote in an e-mail to CNNMoney.com. The company is the U.S. rice subsidiary of the Spanish firm Ebro Puleva; its brands include Minute and Carolina Rice.

"We believe the action taken by Costco and Sam's [Club] is the result of much higher purchases as people are anticipating substantial additional price increases," he said. "You will note that Wal-Mart has not taken the same measures so far in its stores."


Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2008, 01:26:03 AM »
sounds like the gas / oil debate a few years ago .
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Offline gypsyman

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2008, 07:51:29 AM »
Most of us here are hunters/fisherman, outdoors man. How many times in the past, has a species of animal,deer,waterfowl,fish, gone through a die off, because of not enough food for that particular animal. Hate to tell you this, just because we're on the top of the food chain, doesn't make us much smarter. How many animals do you know, would take their food supply, and turn it into gas or diesel. Just for transportation. We're taking our corn and soybean crops, and turning them into fuel for our cars and trucks. The rice shortage right now, is due to the fact, Eastern nations,(India,China,Vietnam), have been going through a drought, and rice production is way down over there. So there relatives are buying it up here in the U.S., and shipping it back there.

Thing is, we've got lots of resources in this country, but a few tree huggers are running the show. And I have a feeling, it's getting too late to make a turn around. I think, what you seen in New Orleans, is going to be a just a hint, of what might happen.  gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2008, 08:20:22 AM »
critters don't have engines that require fuel so how would we know what they would do ?
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Offline rex6666

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2008, 09:51:18 AM »
Shootall
that may make the critters a little smarter.
Rex
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2008, 09:54:27 AM »
An article on Yahoo said to stock up on food, it pays better than interest.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/104914/Load-Up-the-Pantry

Offline ironglow

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2008, 01:12:32 AM »
 Dixie dude;
  Do you suppose this all started because some of those penny-wise, frugal Asian immigrants could see the good sense of this article, long before it was even written ?
  Having lived in poor countries, they have learned to anticipate such shortages and gain opportunity through them..

   Smart business..but any sudden change in demand causes concern, which builds to worry and often breaks out into full-fleged panic..

   So goes the psychology of the "sheeple"...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline 351 power

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2008, 01:30:51 AM »
billy56081, if you read back thru this thread you can establish on your own that i'm not talking about squeezing a few beans. the point i'm talking about is best handled by a quote i heard from a western farmer. on the radio, as he was interviewed from his farm/slaughter house/restaurant operation. he said that his farm was failing. then he stopped farming a commodity and started growing food. meaning that he started getting involved in the marketing of his products rather than dumping his yrs harvest at the mercy of the commodity traders. but you may already be familiar with that.

all those articles are good info. to me they are pictures of the extent to which markets are being manipulated.

beemanbeme, that modern icon of free trade, walmart, is now limiting people to 4 bags of rice. now that sounds communist
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2008, 04:31:48 AM »
The 4 bags of rice is 20# bags.  That is a lot of rice.  Some restaurants buy some of their bulk items from Sam's.  I still am using rice I saved for y2k. 

Offline Chilachuck

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2008, 06:24:08 AM »
As I recall, rice is the bulk of the eastern diet and what we in the west think of as the main dish is used as a condiment on the rice (and that's why when Westerners eat Chinese food, they are hungry again a few hours later, they leave the meal on the plate and eat the flavoring).

So, if rice is the bulk of the diet, that runs about a pound a day. Three weeks per person, or one week for three.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2008, 06:40:42 AM »
Billy56081, the remark about French intensive was about gardening not farming. TM7 made one of his usual remarks about which he knows nothing in his usual babblespeak way.  

351power, You need to read the posts. It seems Wally is restricting the sale of some sort of specialty rice.  But, oddly enough, SAM'S is not. Also the restrictions are for 20# sacks of rice. (I'll help you with the math) That's 80# of rice. Or over 1.5# of dry rice a week.  How much rice does your family eat?  And,mind you, this is specialty rice. Not the common rice like is grown by the tons over in Arkansas on which Wally has no restrictions.
But you say every farmer should stop growing corn or soybeans or sugar beets and switch over to diverse truck crops and have his own little shop beside the road.  Instead of taking trailer loads of snap beans to the processor, he should have a "pick it yourself" plantation on 850 acres.  
351power, do you belong to a Co-op?  





Offline ironglow

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2008, 11:44:30 AM »
  There are Biblical; reasons for stocking food..even beside those reasons why Mormons (I understand) stock food stuffs.

   If a man wants to stock some easy-keeper food that has a lot of nutritional value..try beans, in any of their many varieties.
   Lots of protein & other food value. Don't forget also the legumes..peas, lentils etc....and there's also pastas.

         Try to find all metal cans that will keep bugs and rodents at bay. I have forgotten what can be used as a desiccant (dryer)
   that can be put in each can, to keep it dry after taping the lid seam..but perhaps someone here can remind us.
  There are some forms of clay that can be used..but I don't have any info on that..
    Flour can also be kept in the same way..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline 351 power

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2008, 03:28:27 PM »
bemanbeme, with your limited knowledge of farming i can see why i have to explain in so much detail. i really don't mean for farmers to all start market gardening. but i do think they all need to be aware of the market characteristics and try to sell for themselves. or value add to their crops. and diversify. so that they have market intensiveness, as well as production intensiveness. diversity is an attractive option. spread risk over a wider income base.

now about those market gardens. i know families grossing 1000$/week thru a saturday farm market. in a city of about 50000 people. they grow about 5 acres.

and a purchase restriction on specialty rice is still a restriction. but if you don't mind that precedence in a free market society then maybe you do have some socialist roots too.

from the way you try to simplify this very complex problem of food sustainability i can only gather that you recently have become aware of the need for adjustments in international food policy. if i can help you find some cred able info just ask.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2008, 03:42:38 PM »
" the point i'm talking about is best handled by a quote i heard from a western farmer"  Quote from 351power

  So this make you an expert on farming? I'm sure your extensive experience in your garden growing tomatoes and potatoes has givin you some insight on modern farming and marketing of grain and commodities.  Most farmers have a part of their crops and fuel contracted before they plant, so prices only affect their profit. Hoeing your garden and pulling weeds give you no experience what so ever. Modernd farming is a huge investment for the farmers, millions of dollars in land and millions of dollars in equipment. And by the way I live in southern MN right in the heart of farm country, and most of the farms are still family owned here. Many do incorperate for the tax advantages but they are still family owned.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline 351 power

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2008, 05:18:00 PM »
my dear friend if you had read back thru this thread you would know that i have some knowledge of farming too. and like you i also live amongst large farms with large tractors. and large fields. and large bills. i live there on my own farm. and i work on another farm for most of my income. where i drive large tractors. in large fields. i spray lots of chemicals. and harvest lots of crops. i both read and listen to info about farming. and so we are now equals when it comes to farm knowledge
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Offline 351 power

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2008, 05:22:56 PM »
we have contracts too
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Offline ironglow

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2008, 02:09:07 AM »
      I was raised on a Dairy farm and live in farm country...and we have a panoply of farming styles here; from the corporate farms...just as Billy said..most are still family
  owned. Then we have the Amish farmers, who are very much into "sustainable" farming.
     The Amish do well on small scale, primarily because they live so simply..no trucks, tractors, cars, TVs, video games, computers, Danish furniture, swimming pools, Florida/Arizona vacations, $10K wardrobes, jewelry, kitchen appliances, retirement plans or 401Ks  to be concerned with..they don't even have curtains on the windows.
   
      It would appear that for a small operator to have a modern lifestyle by producing labor intensive crops..he would have to be in proximity to an "upscale "yuppie" town.
   I believe the yuppie types with lots of $$ to throw around would be about the only folks willing to pay at least double for any crop.
        I have serious doubts that such an operator could make the grade just anywhere; especially in a "farming community", where folks "know their onions"...to use
   an old proverb.
   
     There have been times past when I had ruminated about doing such a thing..but after investigating I found the message was clear..not here..not now..
    Perhaps if I lived in proximity to a market in Aspen, CO...Grosse Pointe, MI or Lake Tahoe, $1,000 per week may be possible, but those places are rare and land is commensurately expensive.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Chilachuck

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2008, 08:42:55 AM »
351: "... meaning that he started getting involved in the marketing of his products rather than dumping his yrs harvest at the mercy of the commodity traders."

That sounds like taking what a smart farmer should be doing a few steps further. It also sounds like how commodity markets get created. Prove there's a profit and all of a sudden everybody is doing it. Someone has to take the chance and go exploring, though.

Back to the rice: This "specialty rice" they are talking about is considered a staple in some parts of the world, and they consider Calrose rice fit only for animal feed. And there's people who will starve if all they have is "animal feed" (example: French and yellow corn).

A US rice farmer who can afford to pull some land out of known money making production, figure out how to grow a specialty rice, give it whatever processing it needs, and get it to the people who want to buy it might be able to make a good profit here in the US.

That sounds like "get involved with the marketing" to me.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2008, 06:27:09 AM »
It's called market research.
351, What works for a 5 acre farmer doesn't work for a 5000 acre farmer.  That's simple enough.  When I was keeping bees, I rarely had even 25 hives. But my honey was custom packaged to reflect that it was local honey, and it was only available thru the organic and Amish outlets. I sold only to the carriage trade so to speak and got double top-dollar+ for my honey. The equipment I had was labour intensive but it got the job done. --please don't tell me a lot of farms haven't been lost because old Mcdonald had the equipment he needed but couldn't resist buying that big shiney new JD that he couldn't afford to make payments on--  My staff (aka wife and son) didn't mind the work when, after the hives were put to bed and the extraction eq put away, we'd take a vacation to Hawaii or a hunting trip to Wy paid for with "honey money".  I lived near a metro area and was selling to a niche market. That's something that's not always possible when you are farming 5000 acres or have 2500 hives.

I'm thinking that the idea of taking part of your acreage out to try a specialty item or address a niche market might not be a bad idea. I don't know if a farmer that comes in at the end of a day is gonna feel up to shoveling composted horse s**t around and hand picking potato bugs off of 5 acres of organic spuds however.

 When I was a kid, back when kids were expected to do that four letter word (work) , this boy and girl I knew got an allowance every year.  A plot of ground. Maybe, as I remember, an acre or a little better.  Their Dad would buy the seed, fertizer, etc, and, of course had the eq. The kids had to decide what they were gonna grow (it didn't have to be the same thing), and how they were gonna market it.  What they made off their patch of ground was their money for the year.  It also taught them how to budget.  I don't know how it is now, but back then, a farmer only got paid once a year. The rest of the time he lived on bank credit or that dwindling roll of cash buried in a canning jar in the back yard. :D

Offline 351 power

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2008, 02:27:55 PM »
beemanbeme, we do have some common ground. market research describes what i been talking about perfectly. any change a farmer makes that helps to insure the sustainability of their own farm is ultimately better for farming in general, and the nation as a whole.
yes proximity to market is important. so some ventures are tougher to try farther from town. that's why, say a feed lot, may make sense in the middle of a grain belt instead of just producing more grain. feed up poorer stocks of grain. you then convert the grain to a more saleable product. take it one step farther and  start a bison operation. look for high end restaurants to supply. soon you supply work for your kids. this is just a quick example but i hope it illustrates my meaning. this would be my vision of sustaining independant family farms
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Offline ironglow

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2008, 05:38:37 PM »
  Hmmm;
  I'm still trying to figure where my last post was irrelevant..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2008, 01:44:43 AM »
it sounds great to offer how a small farm can survive but like any business competition dictates survival rate as much as anything . Much like the ability of an acre of land is limited to yield , a location is limited in how much produce it can use . So reason says that only enough farms are needed to supply what can be used .
Its nice to romance about the family farm , and as long as i can remember subsidies have been used to artificially support the farms , but in a world with $4.00 fuel and everything on a farm involves fuel in some way , we as a nation can't keep supporting a life style that is not profitable . What i see in Va. is people who farm a couple hundred acres or less have a main job and farm on the side for extra cash. There is one guy that make over $40000.00 in pumpkins each year as a side job farming 5 acres . how many people can do that in one area ?
I raise a few cows for beef , i sell a cow or two to pay for raising the ones i butcher , i could not call it a profit maker in any way . But i do get good beef !
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2008, 07:44:47 AM »
Farm subsidies. It's a really, really bad word. Especially to the cliff dwellers in NYC.  Or city dwellers in general.  They don't seem to mind "gov'ment money" to help kill the rats that plague their towns or to pave their streets or renovate their slums but give a farmer a few bucks and they get ballistic.

What is the real reason for paying a farmer to grow something or not grow something?  To keep the farmer on the farm.

 Look at the oil crisis. Everyone is screaming about $4.00 gas and want to use our oil rather than be dependent on foreign oil.  But while we're using theirs, we're not using ours.  Think about that. 

Getting back to farm subsidies, supposed we imported all of our food and the country(s) we imported it from decided they were gonna shut us off.  We'd be in a lot worse shape than from an oil imbargo.  So farm subsidies are more important to our defense than this fence some loony is talking about building acrost the USA. Simply put, we need farmers on the farm, ready to farm.  And this mono-culture stuff ain't as real as it seems when you're standing in the middle of Iowa.  They may grow a lot of corn in Iowa and a lot of rice in Arkansas but they grow miles and miles of snap beans and tomatoes and such in the Imperial Valley. And they do it year around.  America can feed itself.  And, of course, the beef that farm subsidies go into the pocket of some rich cliff dweller in NYC is partly true but somewhere there has to be a farm, with equipment, and folks to run it.  Again, simply stated, the farmer on the farm is a vital part of America's infrastructure and they are certainly worth whatever bucks the gov'ment gives them back.

Let's never forget that any money the gov'ment gives us was ours to begin with.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2008, 09:02:17 AM »
First the corporate farms seem to be doing good ( so i don't see some foreign power cutting us off ), second the money GOVT.gives us was someones ( i don't like govt. playing Robin Hood ) It seems every time GOVT. tries to manipulate something it seems to sound good at the time but we pay later .
I see the help farmers get as a way to control them , what would happen if supply and demand set price ? I feel the average farmer is smarter than given credit . Lets face it the people making the money are the guys playing futures markets and if they can keep supply down by paying the farmer to hold back . Well you get the picture ?
Trust me when i say i side with the farmer , i would like to see them decide their own fate !
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2008, 04:05:16 AM »
I hate to say it but this is one area that I (almost) wish there was more control. Maybe not in crop manipulation but in zoning. The developers, too often with the connivence of the city and state planners (it's a tax base thing), will force the farmers into selling their land by zoning changes, excessive taxes,  and the latest thing is the environmental "studies" that have to be done before a crop can be grown.
351 touched on the damage that poor farming practices can do to the environment if you continue to farm like great grand dad did but that doesn't mean the farm has to be cut up into quarter acre building lots. The farm needs to be zoned as a farm and kept intact and resold as a farm to a knowledgeable farmer. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2008, 05:01:36 AM »
so where do all the new people live ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2008, 07:00:12 AM »
I think everyone, if possible, should grow "victory gardens", back yard gardens, hunt and fish, to supplement their food supplies.  They should plant fruit trees on their property if they don't want to do much gardening.  Figs, peaches, apples, and pears grow well in my area, as well as pecan and walnut trees.  Grapes and muskedines can also be grown.  If the ladies can learn how to can and blanch food for preservation, it would help too.  Then if there are food shortages due to wars, famines, droughts, etc. you will be more prepared.  I once grew all my yearly vegetables, and provided about half my meat from gardening, hunting and fishing.  I moved to a better school district and have nothing but trees in my back yard now, but when my youngest gets out of high school in two years, I plan on returning to the country somewhere.  I grew almost everything but wheat, rice, and meal corn. I grew something almost year round.  Corn, tomatoes, beats, cucumbers (for pickles), eggplant, raddishes, turnips, rutabagas, okra, peas, butter beans, English peas, cabbage, collards, carrots, potatoes, yellow squash, butternut squash, watermellons, bell pepper, Cayenne pepper, and string beans.  I getting hungry.


Offline ironglow

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Re: The coming food catastrophe
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2008, 01:09:19 PM »
  Save foods by canning, drying, curing in crocks, ala pickels & sauerkraut. Don't even plan on the freezer..In case of a real calamity you aren't likely to have electric power
  nor will you have enough gas or diesel to keep a generator running for months on end...
   there's also salting and smoking...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)