45/70 reload saftey question**updated with grim range report**

[JBC]

Well, I got a deal on some 400 grain speer flatpoints for my 45/70 handi and before searching the posts I went ahead and loaded 25 rounds to the recommended c.o.l. and tried to chamber one and surprise the short throat of the handi 45/70 showed itself. Well I did the research on the boards and realized that this is a common problem and the only fix is buying or renting a throating reamer. I am a toolmaker by trade so this process does not scare me at all but my question is: would it be safe to fire these rounds with the rifling engaged or will the pressure increase to unsafe levels? With a good solid slam it locks up tight. The load is 40.5 grains of reloader 7 which by my sources is about 4 full grains below max for level 2 loads. It is listed at about 25,000cup so my thoughts are that it would almost have to double the pressure to be at a dangerous level. The biggest problem with pulling the bullets would be the fact that they are crimped with a lee factory crimp die which makes them a real b@*ch to pull. Any experience with this combo would be appreciated. Also is the bullet profile of the 400 grain remington different enough to make it chamber in the handi? Thanks, Joe

[quickdtoo]

I would chamber one and close the action firmly, then hold the rifle up to a bright light and look across the standing breech/barrel joint and see if it's actually closed, there may be a gap that's not there on an empty chamber. If there's no gap, shoot em,  it's below the SAAMI trapdoor max of 28kpsi, although loading into the lands will increase pressure about 7kpsi, but as you say, you're still in levergun data. The Handi is available in 500S&W with an operating pressure of 52kpsi, so 32kpsi isn't gonna bother it, although it may bother you!!

The ogive shape of the bullet determines how long a cartridge can be loaded relative to the throat depth, that's the problem with the 405gr Rem and 400gr Speer and even most 350gr, their fat ogive makes a big difference compared to the smaller 300gr bullets. You can see the difference in the comparison below, L to R, 300gr Speer, 300gr Rem, 405gr Rem, 400gr Speer FN, 350gr Speer FN, 350gr Hornady RN and 350gr Hornady FP Interlock.

Tim

 http://alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=400&shellid=1099&bulletid=354

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[JBC]

thanks for the quick reply Tim - that's a good tip about the gap I think I will try to make it to the range next week and give it a try and then I will have to exercise the old visa on a reamer rental and fix her right!

[AtlLaw]

Tim,
In your experience do most 45/70 Handi's have throats that short?  I think I've shot factory 405's before but I can't say for sure... if I did it was a looooong time ago!    All I've loaded so far have been 300's but I've got a bunch of 405's I was going to use the next time I get the urge to shoot the rifle.  I planned on loading to the most forward cannelure.

[quickdtoo]

Not all, but most do, if you do a search you'll see it's always been a complaint, there was a .458" throating reamer going around for little more than the cost of shipping a long time ago, but someone kept it and never fessed up.

Tim

[stimpylu32]

I must be the luckest guy in the world or the person that had my 45/70 barrel before me ran a reamer down it , I have no problem with any load i feed it even the 525 Piledrivers , while it likes the cast 405s and 425s best .

stimpy

[quickdtoo]

You'd be one of the lucky few Stimpy, I have four of em, three had the typical short throat, the fourth I never checked, it got a real loooong throat and became a 45-120 before I ever shot it!!

Tim

[LONGTOM]

Tim:
I just got some Starline brass 45-100 2.6" and was thinking of going that route. Sense you have done the 120 which do you think is a better choice?


LONGTOM

[quickdtoo]

The 45-120 carries all the shock and awe of the bunch, if you just want more case capacity, the 45-90 is the least expensive of the bunch, but the big 120 is well worth the extra cost if you want to have fun at the range, brass is the better part of $2 each tho. 

Tim

[petemi]

Well Tim, it looks like the wife may have to get a second job!

[EsoxLucius]

Tim,
In your experience do most 45/70 Handi's have throats that short?  I think I've shot factory 405's before but I can't say for sure... if I did it was a looooong time ago!    All I've loaded so far have been 300's but I've got a bunch of 405's I was going to use the next time I get the urge to shoot the rifle.  I planned on loading to the most forward cannelure.

The 405 grain Remington JSP has a double diameter, approximately .4575" on the shank down to about .452" at the noticable step, so they will chamber in short throated 45-70s like the new Ruger #1s and H&Rs.

[NFG]

I don't want to start a ruckus or confuse anyone...BUT...the receiver/action pressure capacity is the limiting factor in ALL rifles, pistols, shotguns or any other combustion device...AND...in most break action rifles the action will lock up before getting too close to the pressure limits of the receiver...BUT NOT ALWAYS AND DEPENDS ON MANY FACTORS. 

IT IS ALWAYS BEST TO FOLLOW ACCEPTED RELOADING PROCEDURES AND NOT EXCEED SAMMI SPECS CONCERNING THE PRESSURE OF A SPECIFIC CARTRIDGE.

I ran some pressure data through a software program using 4140 steel specifications and came up with some very interesting information.  I was going to provide this information to this forum but decided against it as I don't have any way to control it's use.  I will say that  NEF centerfire barrels made of 4140 will handle the pressure of all the cartridges that NEF chambers for with at least a 1.5 SAFETY factor, so as long as reasonable reloading procedures are followed there is plenty of built in safety and as far as 45-70 reloading is concerned...not to worry over a slight increase in pressure due to bullets touching or into the lands by a bit, although NOT a good practice to do.

I have loaded my NEF BC to velocities beyond those listed in any manual with bullets ranging from 300-500+ but staying within the pressure limits of the NEF receiver and in all cases the action started to lock up before getting too close to any pressure maximum for the receiver.  I was using powders with the correct burning rate for the bullet weight and cartridge capacity...using data from "Load from a Disk" and NOT GUESSING.

The 45-70 may be old but using modern strong cases and powders, she is still ready to kickazz and forget names and make the magnums look sideways and wonder what's going on.

'Njoy

[JBC]

nfg- as I stated in my original post I did not intentionally load them into the lands but loaded them to the recommended c.o.l. and it was too long for my chamber and since I had at least a 100% saftey margin I was going to give them a try anyways. I am not one to push the upper limits of pressure anyways and I was quite certain that this would not come close. Actually what I ended up doing was running them through my seater again and bumping them back to 2.500" and re crimping them in front of the cannelure with my factory crimp die. As it ends up the o.a.l. was the least of my problems when I went to the range. I shot the first round and everything looked great-primer still nice and round around the edeges and no other pressure signs whatsoever. Shot #2 ***click*** no bang! and on through the box about one out of every two a big click. I seem to be getting slightly light primer strikes and as my gun was a display model for who knows how long I am wondering if the firing pin was bent from dry firing?? I do notice that when holding the action open and dropping the hammer the firing pin has a definate downward angle, is this normal or should it portrude straight? Well let me tell you firing duds from a lightweight 45/70 will sure let you know how bad your flinch is!!! And all was not lost for the day I shot some beautifull 3/4" groups at 100yds with my Tikka t3 lite .308.

[quickdtoo]

Joe, the firing pin isn't level, it's aligned on an angle to the breech face, if you look at both ends you'll see they aren't level. You can see an exagerated graphic of the angle in the owner's manual. Some H&R 45-70s have too much headspace due to the rim cut being too deep, seems to me around .067" is normal, if the rim of the brass in on the thin side and the rim cut is on deep side, you can get light pin strikes, but letting off on the trigger can cause that too since the transfer bar doesn't stay up for full impact on the firing pin. You can check pin projection by cocking the hammer, then pull the trigger alll the way to the rear as it should be pulled when shooting it, while holding the hammer and letting it down gently to push the firing pin out, then measure the amount of projection, you should get at least .035", up to about .050", anything on the shallow side may cause problems. Ejector barrels shouldn't be a problem as the spring tension of the ejector will hold the rim against the breech, but extractors don't and may be a problem.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/HR_NEF_HANDI_RIFLE_MANUAL.pdf

[NFG]

Quick has the answer.

Chambers, throats, leads, etc are notorious for NOT being what they are "supposed to be".  The best way to know for sure is to drop a bullet down the chamber, measure the depth...add the length of the bullet...this is the COAL of THAT bullet in THAT chamber.  You have to measure every bullet weight and brand and keep good notes because the bullet ogives are not in the same place all the time. 

AND...the crimping groove in bullets isn't necessarily in the right spot to be crimped in for YOUR chamber...it is where a SAMMI spec says it SHOULD be for that perfect and correctly cut chamber, plus you know how tolerances can stack up or get lost.

You might have to change brands of brass if your rim rebate is cut too deep.  There is variation in everything especially brass.  Belted Magnum brass is notorious for having varying widths in the belts.  You can measure the amount of difference in your brass and the rim rebate with a straight edge and feeler gages to get a direct reading.  You being a toolmaker have access to lots of excellent tools to do this chore.

Burrs in the works, grease and other guk from machining can gum up the working pieces and parts and can also cause a hammer to hang up slightly.  I take any rifle I buy apart and give it a good cleaning plus stone down (polish) the different sliding or rubbing points and knock off the sharp edges just to be on the safe side...and do a trigger job at the same time...two birds with one stone so to speak.  Every NEF I have had razors and garbage inside it especially around the hammer slot and lots of machining gouges...Just a pleasant way to get to know things...you, your stone and your toy.

'Njoy

[wgr]

Tim when you throat ed your 45-70 did it affect the use off other bullet lengths .i have a BC with a short throat would like to shoot some 500+grain pp bullets but would still like to shoot others as well

[quickdtoo]

The only load I've compared is the 300gr Nosler Partition w/H4198, before throating velocity was 2425fps, after it the same load went 2350fps.

Tim

[wgr]

Tim what  i meant to say was how will it  affect accuracy  going from a pp bullet around 1 3/8 then shooting a cast 405 grain bullet that will be alot   shorter.would like to shoot pp but don't want to mess it up for the shorter rounds  thinks bill

[phaessler]

I really have to commend this board and all its contributors.  Seems every time I have a question and/or an issue with my Handi Rifle, this place has the answer or a reasonable theory.

I started with an SB2 in 22-250, mainly for my son.  But the barrel accessory for was staring at me.  Joined a local club around Christmas and they shoot BPCR Silhouette, I know I know, the H&R BC doesnt count, but hey I dont want to compete, I am out to have fun.  I have rifles that shoot subMOA at 200+yds. And the Handi is fun. 
Sent it back to get the trigger adjusted, and 2 barrels,  .204 fluted , and 32" .45-70 BC.  Had it back inside of 2 weeks. Was shooting the .204 in 2 days.  Great little round, and after doing the O-ring forend, have them touching holes at 100yds (29gr AA2460 / 32gr Vmax). Fun to shoot to say the least.
Well I figured ok time for the BC, ordered the Straight buttstock. Got a set of Williams foolproof target knob peeps, a selection of Lyman front sights (want to be sure to reach 500yds   ) And lastly ordered brass and bullets.   I bought Star-Line brass, looked good, measured good, so primed and loaded some.  49grs 3031/300gr  Horn HP, and 63gr 1 1/2F Swiss behind a .030 veg wad and a 405gr SPG lubed flat-point lead bullet.
First shot was click, re-cock, click Bang. Then I was well ok maybe its me. Continued thru both boxes off and on with no consistency. But 40% were double clicks.  I cant blame the primers, same batch I use in my .22-250Ackley bolt gun, I cant blame the Handi, it fires the .204 and .22-250 without issue.
Ok back to the house we go, I clean off my reloading bench and line up the variables, I measure firing pin protrusion, seems light at .040" but acceptable. I look at .204, and .22-250 brass, good consistent primer strikes.  Prime brass (204, 22-250) snap primers, they go off and look like fired rounds.  I look at .45-70 brass, UH OH!!! light strikes. But they were doubled snapped on. Hmm, I start measuring. Primers are match rifle primers, no need to go there. I measure primer pockets on .22-250 brass, all fall between .128 - .130" out of 20 pieces, I measure .45-70 brass out of 20, .132-138".  Big deviations in pocket depth. Never thought to measure rim thickness. But this BC barrel locks up nice and tight so headspace now is totally dependent on rim thickness as I see it.  Ordered RP 45-70 brass, hope to get this sorted out.
Oh, and the AUG .584" front sight was too high, at 100yds rear sight was 1/2 travel and shooting 2" low. So installed the .404" front sight. Still managed to get  1 1/2" groups with the 3031 loads and 2"  with the BP.
Anyone have brass comments? Throat on this barrel seems sharp, but not messing with it, yet.    I did fashion a weight to go in the buttstock, and got the weight up to 9 1/2 pounds.  Figured it would kick like a mad mule if I didnt with the .45-70.
Pictures are coming, need to figure that out.
Thanks again, and sorry for being long winded.
Pete

[phaessler]

Forgot to mention, when primed the Star-Line brass primers sit 0.008-0.010" deeper than flush.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

Welcome aboard Pete! I just checked some of my Starline brass, same primer pocket depth, so it's apparently normal, I've not had any problems, but I use Rem and Win primers which are bit taller than CCI and Fed, could possibly make a difference, but mine are all ejector barrels too which helps. Just an FYI, I measured a bunch of pin projections, they vary from .035" to .047", if you want to increase it, just remove a bit off the face of the hammer. A new hammer is about $10 and not hard to replace using the trigger info in the FAQs and Help sticky......just in case!!

Tim

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

[phaessler]

Once again, thank you. Tim, I never thought the primer cups would deviate that much, might just try a batch of Win. primers. Sort of thought about adjusting the hammer, but dont want to mess up the other calibers. Will give it a try and report back

Really liking this site, have questions , get answers. Very valuable information here.

thanks again

Pete

[dodd3]

I must be the luckest guy in the world or the person that had my 45/70 barrel before me ran a reamer down it , I have no problem with any load i feed it even the 525 Piledrivers , while it likes the cast 405s and 425s best .

stimpy

Dito that stimpy my buff classic is the same never had a problem.
bernie