Author Topic: anybody seen one of these (Read 2727 times)

Illhunter · « **on:** April 13, 2008, 11:46:51 AM »

http://www.auctionarms.com/Search/DisplayItem.cfm?ItemNum=8569160 and if so what do you think of them and how do they shoot

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2008, 12:00:54 PM »

There are several threads on them in the Huntsman forum, use the search to find em.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,101712.msg1098273338.html#msg1098273338

toysoldier · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2008, 01:16:47 PM »

DO NOT BUY A HUNTSMAN!!!

I owned one once. Powder fouling would very quickly jam the firing pin, so that it either would not fire, or would fire as it was closed. It also jammed the barrel latch, so the gun would pop open when fired. A radiologist in our shooting club told of seeing an x-ray of a guy with a breech plug from one of these embedded in his forehead.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS MODERN FIREARMS EVER PRODUCED!

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2008, 04:18:38 PM »

Yes they should all be boxed up and sent to my address for safety sake. All guns are only as safe as the person handling them.I bet that radioligist is a hoot to drink with he probly got all kinds of stories. Kurt

MSP Ret · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2008, 03:31:54 AM »

I agree!!! Whatever Huntsmans Kurt does not want please send to me. I bet that radiologist also does not wear a seatbelt because he knows someone who was in a car and it rolled in a lake (caught on fire, etc. add whatever you want in this part of the story) and his seat belt latch became inoperable and he died. It must be true because the guy it happenned to told him the story himself!!!. By the way, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for a good deal if that Radiologist is interested (I don't ever want him taking x-rays of me!!!)....<><....

Seriously though, I have heard that Huntsmans were brought to this planet by extraterrestrials disguised as liberals, or it may have been the other way around, it was a while ago but I did hear it directly from the person who heard it from the guy who knew the guys cousin that it happened to. Anyway, I heard that Huntsmans were brought to this planet to disrupt the private ownership of firearms and enjoyment of the shooting sports in general. Also, if you use them I have also heard that your hair falls out, you sometimes grow a beard and/or moustache, and you become attractive to younger women, so beware....

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2008, 03:51:29 AM »

Andy the last one why I need more of them that magic must be in one of em

Kurt

Hammerspur · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2008, 05:40:49 AM »

DO NOT BUY A HUNTSMAN!!!THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS MODERN FIREARMS EVER PRODUCED!

Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

MSP Ret · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2008, 06:05:15 AM »

, thanks Hammerspur, I needed that, sometimes one smile or laugh makes you feel good all day....<><....

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2008, 07:31:40 AM »

I love these I know a guy posts

. I even throw one out now and then.Just to see if anyone is readin

Kurt

d_hiker · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2008, 08:03:04 AM »

I would love to see the x-ray with the breech plug. I know I like the photo in the link to why you shouldn't put a rifle barrel on a shotgun. It lends a certain amount of credibility to the story and gets your attention. (Now am I thinking about the right picture or was that the one from the scope kiss, or that picture from the boresighter left in the barrel). Oh well, you get the idea.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2008, 10:25:34 AM »

Let's not forget the news story some time back about the would-be stickup guy who thought shooting his heater first would get everyone's attention.
The weapon failed to fire, so Dillinger tales a peek down the muzzle and squeezes once more...

Not terribly different than the push-in breechplug perils, NO?

Underclocked · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2008, 04:36:50 PM »

I think toysoldier is possibly confusing the Huntsman originals - the ones with the push in o-ring breech plugs - for more recent production. The shotgun linked may be an original Huntsman frame but, since it is a shotgun, it's sort of irrelevant.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2008, 03:49:24 AM »

Underclocked what was wrong with the original push in plug ones? Kurt

Underclocked · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2008, 04:52:27 PM »

They killed a couple of people due to hangfires - or so I've read. The originals actually had a screw-in plug that was quickly abandoned for one reason or another. That was replaced with the push-in o-ring plug.

The story is related on numerous forums and I believe it to be true. http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-faq3.htm FAQ #35 on that page gives one account. I have also read that one person that was killed was a factory technician doing testing. Those push-in Huntsman muzzleloaders came out about the time I was first shopping for my own muzzleloader. They were fairly attractive and had nice walnut stocks as I recall. But that was about all I noticed at the time as the TC Hawken had hit the shelves and I had to have one.

The stories could be urban legend but they have been repeated for years. I understand the receiver section blocks removal of the plug until the barrel is removed from the action? That would certainly offer some additional protection but perhaps not enough.

I've got a question - those screw-in early plugs for the older Huntsman - are they the proper length, diameter and thread pitch to fit in a newer 7/8" model Huntsman?

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2008, 06:04:32 AM »

I did a bunch of research...well not really research or I would of kept records. But after peeling back much of the urban legend I found that the killer guns had been altered to be able to remove the plugs with out taking the forearm off the gun. The 2 that I have with push in plugs you cannot remove the plug without removing the forearm. Also if you have a hang fire you should follow all the safety rules for that. And do not look down the bbl to see whats wrong.

Kurt

MSP Ret · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2008, 03:20:38 PM »

toysoldier · « **Reply #16 on:** April 29, 2008, 05:37:56 PM »

I owned one of the older Huntsman guns with knock-out breech plug, acquired in trade sometime after 1981. I do not recall having to take the barrel off to remove the breech plug. The radiologist I cited as a source of the report of a breech plug in the head was the best shooter in our club, and an amazingly talented gunsmith, making beautiful reproductions of everything from a Jaeger to a classic Kentucky rifle. He was a quiet, serious guy, and I had no reason to doubt that he had indeed seen this in a radiology journal.

The Huntsman was safe enough for one shot, but repeated firing caused the fouling problems I described: frozen firing pin, with failure to fire or firing on closure; interference with lockup, allowing the gun to pop open upon firing. It was OK for one shot, such as in hunting, but dangerous at a shooting match. I sold it for $25 to a guy who wanted a muzzleloader for hunting, after warning him of its problems.

I DO NOT appreciate the sneering tone of some of the postings. I'm not some ignorant twit who doesn't know the difference between lead balls and matzoh balls. I was attempting to pass on information about a VERY SERIOUS safety problem I PERSONALLY experienced. If later Huntsman rifles are safe, that's very good. However, I never heard of a recall on the older model, and there are likely a number of them still in circulation, capable of killing at BOTH ends.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2008, 12:54:02 AM »

Quote from: toysoldier on April 29, 2008, 05:37:56 PM

there are likely a number of them still in circulation, capable of killing at BOTH ends.

You mean like a centerfire might if opened after a hangfire? ??

?? .............................................

??

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #18 on:** April 30, 2008, 12:35:41 PM »

Sounds to me like you got a used one in a trade that had already been modified/altered to allow for breech plug removal. Pop opens are an inherent problem with some H&R's but is easily fixed. When shooting Black powder you have to keep it and clean it often during a shooting session that is why so many have switched to BP subs. As far as firing on closure that is something you need to check when/or before putting the cap on the nipple. There was no safety recalls because all you had to do was follow the safety rules and it was safe to shoot. Kurt

Hammerspur · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2008, 12:42:53 PM »

My breechplug knocks out without disassembling, never thought much about it, but I never experienced a hangfire with it because it always wore a 209 holder, and infrequently the musket cap nipple.

Pop opens, failures to ignite the primer or firing upon closing the breech never occurred despite extended range sessions BUT
I never shot BP or Filth (AKA "Pyrodex") out of it. I was an early convert to Black Mag 3 upon its release from the original manufacturer ARCO Powder Co.
What a revelation that stuff was!

All those above symptoms appear to be the result of excessive fouling blowby getting past the o-ring on the push in breechplug.

A conical powder well hog out on the forward end of my plug precluded that.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2008, 05:32:57 PM »

I would think that a nipple for musket caps would do wonders for positive ignition on the ML shotguns with push in breechplugs (all H&R ML shotguns may have the push in's, I am not sure of that though). I do have one of my TC Renegades (the .56 smoothbore) outfitted with a musket cap nipple instead of the regular percussion cap nipple and there is MUCH more power and flame upon ignition of the cap. The nipples are all the same except for external width of the nipple so I am positive it would just screw right into the push out breechplug. I think all the push in breechplugs were removable without removing the barrel from the frame. I have heard others voice opinions on that but like the breechplug imbedded in the forehead, extra terrestirial beings, Bigfoot, and pigs that fly, there are those that will forever believe the stories....<><....

Underclocked · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2008, 03:25:21 AM »

It would be nice if someone delved into this enough to ascertain the facts. I believe toysoldier and I believe there was/is definitely a safety issue with some of those older Huntsman muzzleloaders. The confusion about whether the plug would push out without modification seems to stem from differences in calibers of the rifle. The .45s would apparently push right out without dis-assembly while the .58s did require breakdown (again based upon other postings). To dismiss a potentially deadly safety issue without knowing the facts is showing careless disregard for the safety of others, IMHO.

Not everyone is immune to mistakes.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2008, 06:35:20 AM »

One problem of basing beliefs on other posts is many time others post about what they have read or believed they have read in other posts, or about what they gave heard or believed they have heard. As you so correctly put it, ascertaining the facts would be great. The assumption that H&R .58 caliber ML's (some or all) require breakdown to remove the breechplug is another fact that remains to be verified....<><....

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2008, 11:09:39 AM »

The fact is to ascertain the facts you have to have the key fact holder and that is the factory. And you ain't gonna get them to say boo about any guns from that time frame. " To dismiss a potentially deadly safety issue without knowing the facts is showing careless disregard for the safety of others, IMHO." This deadlly safety issue that you claim is in fact no more unsafe than having a misfire with a cartridge. Would you or should you pop the gun open and stick you face down to see why it didn't fire or would you follow the safety guidelines and set it down for 5 minutes before going further? Same thing no different. As far as the pop out breech plugs go... as much as I dislike the taste of crow I should probly eat a little as I am finding more and more of these plugs that can be removed with out removing the forearm. In fact my own .58 will now open far enough to do that and the only modification I have done was put a brass frame spacer on it and a brass trigger guard. So when I found the statements saying the problem was with the modifications I bit and believed that as gospel just as others have with what they have heard,read or had come to them in the dead of night. Here is what I believe to be fact... they are as safe as any firearm can be for what they are made to do as long as you follow the safety rules of handling and shooting firearms. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Kurt

Busta · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2008, 11:42:33 AM »

Someone posted the link to the story about 5 years ago. IIRC it was a man from NH, and was rumored to be a T/C Engineer or something to that effect. It happened several years ago, seems like the 80's or 90's. It was probably a little R & D for the Encore if it actually was a T/C Employee. I TOTALLY believe it happened to somebody because I read it in black and white, but I'll be danged if I can find it. I did a search a while back the last time it was hashed around, and come up empty. I used to have it saved on my old puter until it crashed once and had to do a total system restore.

I can honestly say that I haven't seen ET, Bigfoot, or flying pigs, but I KNOW I read that story about 5 years ago. I just wish I could find it again.

I have also read that it may have been a big factor in the original H&R going belly up. It can happen with any tip-up cartridge gun, a .25 ACP case in a converted breech plug could also be very dangerous on a delayed fire. I'm not saying ALL these are dangerous, just that they all CAN be dangerous if a misfire occurs. Just don't open it up for several minutes, and not in front of your face when you do. Sandbag the breech before cracking it open.

Sorry to ad to the confusion, but for safety sake, don't discount it.

Underclocked · « **Reply #25 on:** May 04, 2008, 07:48:58 AM »

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE5DF163AF930A15750C0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all seems the author of that article had access to some specifics of the New Hampshire event. Notice the date on the ariticle - he may have fallen victim to the bigfoot stories.

I could see how that might happen, especially if a monster buck was standing there waiting for you to try again.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #26 on:** May 04, 2008, 12:12:57 PM »

So there ya have it that's the smoking gun so to speak

Now going back to what toysoldier wrote "DO NOT BUY A HUNTSMAN!!!

I owned one once. Powder fouling would very quickly jam the firing pin, so that it either would not fire, or would fire as it was closed. It also jammed the barrel latch, so the gun would pop open when fired. A radiologist in our shooting club told of seeing an x-ray of a guy with a breech plug from one of these embedded in his forehead.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS MODERN FIREARMS EVER PRODUCED!"

To cry wolf in this way is akin to Saying turkey hunting is one of the most dangerous and deadly forms of hunting because of a story in WI about a father who shot his 8yr old son mistaking him for a turkey . Sad but not the type of hunts fault or the guns fault. As the author states some of these nimrods aren't as familiar with thier weapons as they should be. And it sounds like this guy committed several safety miscues before finally lodging said plug in his forehead again not the guns fault. Or find a story out there of the guy who blew his hand off because he shot one time and it was a squib and the one right behind it was a dbl charge so first one bullet was stuck in bbl and second one blew his hand off.Lets say it happened to be a taurus web chatter turns it around and all of a sudden you got someone stating that a radioligist from my gun club saw a xray in a journal of a guy who blew his hand off shooting a taurus and the gun blew up. "DO NOT BUY A TAURUS"!!!!!! "THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS MODERN HANDGUNS EVER PRODUCED" "I could see how that might happen, especially if a monster buck was standing there waiting for you to try again." But I could even spin your statement I still would not blame the gun I'd blame the monster buck for not running away on the hangfire.

thanks for finding the old story Underclocked it helps to prove it's not the guns fault. As much as we would like to blame the gun 99.9% of all shooting or hunting fatalities are the result of not following the safety guidelines that have been developed to protect us from ourselves and our stupid mistakes. Kurt

MSP Ret · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2008, 03:26:10 PM »

Well said!!!!....<><....

Busta · « **Reply #28 on:** May 04, 2008, 04:44:50 PM »

Thanks UC!

Toysoldier, I think there is about 3 people that owe you an apology. I believe the radiologist seen what you said, and there was no reason for the dog-pile. I'm sorry for the way you were treated here, there is no excuse for it. Some people wouldn't believe it if it hit them in the forehead.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #29 on:** May 05, 2008, 01:21:42 AM »

looks as if it was proven that the article showed there was nothing wrong with the gun, that it was pure operator error/stupidity...

"Three self-inflicted accidents, one of them fatal, involving muzzleloading firearms during the 1986 hunting season have prompted New Hampshire's Department of Fish and Game to schedule a series of workshops for those who prefer to use antique weapons or replicas of them. These workshops will be co-sponsored by Thompson/Center Arms of Rochester, N.H., this country's largest manufacturer of muzzleloading guns." read - "self inflicted"

"Reconstructing the fatal hangfire, New Hampshire officials say that the victim apparently tried to shoot at game. When the gun failed to go off, he immediately opened it - perhaps to place a new cap on the nipple -and at that moment the main powder charge ignited, driving the breech plug into his forehead. Officials say that he was probably unfamiliar with the weapon because a hunting partner had loaded it for him."

Nothing wrong with the gun in this scenario, just with the operator.....this is similar to blaming Rosie O'Donnell's fork for her being fat. or for blaming guns for crime....how about putting the blame where it belongs, on the person....it's always easy to blame an inanimate object for the users stupidity..I like the saying "of course guns are dangerous"....