Author Topic: Why is America stupid???  (Read 3759 times)

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Offline no guns here

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Why is America stupid???
« on: April 14, 2008, 01:31:32 AM »
First - yep I'm American through and through.  Red-blooded, red-necked and red, white and blue.  Got two safes full of guns and two Chevy Suburbans, 4 horses, 2 dogs, 4 kids and a great wife.  I'm a SNCO in the AF and stationed in Germany.  Just thought I'd throw all that out to stop any flames...

Now, I just saw a GMC ad touting some cars with 30mpg as a selling point...  Come on, what are we, stupid?  Why would I buy a 30mpg car when I was getting more than that in my 1994 Honda!  Why, almost daily I drive on the autobahn at +80 mph and get BLOWN off the road by Volkswagons, Audi's, Renaults and others with 2.0 liter turbo-diesels that get nearly 50mpg!!!  I just don't understand... someone enlighten me...  Daily I see small cars pulling horse trailers with two horses in them.  Why do we all need a 3/4 ton pickup to haul a garden trailer?  I see turbo-diesel mini-vans pulling trailers with cars on them on the autobahn at 60mph but in America we have to have a Suburban...  Don't get me wrong... I have Suburbans because they work for me.  I only bought this one because my wife absolutely refused to come back to Europe and drive a mini-van.  After a month of argueing, I finally gave in and signed for it.  As soon as I can convince some fool here to buy my 'burb it's gone... My wife finally saw reason when we rode in a friends VW van on the highway and got 28 mpg at nearly 100mph.  When will America get wise and see the potential in diesel cars, vans and light trucks?

ngh
"I feared for my life!"

Offline magooch

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2008, 03:17:34 AM »
When will America wise up and stomp the environmentalists who won't allow drilling in Anwar and other places where there is plenty of oil?  And when will we allow new refineries to be built?  Meanwhile, we're all supposed to convert to something that runs on corn squeezings.
Swingem

Online Graybeard

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 03:25:28 AM »
Let's first correct the terminology in your question. AMERICA is not stupid. I will freely admit many Americans are however wanting a full size rather than a peewee size vehicle is not what makes someone stupid. That is a conscious choice some of us make cuz we are a bit over sized ourselves and riding in an undersize vehicle is just not a good fit. Saving money on gas is not the highest priority for everyone. If it is for you fine but don't judge the rest of us because we don't share your passion for economy over comfort.

Now where you're finding these 50 mpg vehicles I dunno as I don't believe any of those are sold here in the US from those makers at least. Last time I looked most all the vehicles touted by their makers as getting anywhere close to that mileage are of a size that would allow me to carry them in the bed of my pickup as a spare in case I have a flat. Thanks but no thanks I'll pass on putting my overly plump body into such a tiny vehicle.

I did drive VWs many years ago buying a brand spanking new 1970 model with AC but the mileage it delivered was in the 20s not more than double that figure. I think I recall ONCE on a trip when I kept the speed to about 55-60 the whole way it did eke out close to 30 mpg. It might be that today some VWs are doing better but I've not seen any ads for them on TV claiming even remotely close to 50 mpg.

When I buy a vehicle I base my purchase decision on looks and utility first and gas mileage comes in perhaps third to both of those at best. I'm not a high mileage driver and have not yet rolled over 27,000 on my Toyota Tundra that I picked up in October of 2004 when it was one of the first 2005 models to hit the local dealership. The way I drive it the truck gets an honest 16-17 mpg and on the few trips I've taken with it using cruise control set to the speed limit it can approach 20 mpg on long interstate highway stretches.

If gas mileage is the most important thing to you then by all means get you a tiny vehicle you must wrap around you like a tight fitting sweater but for me I'll take a full size vehicle that offers me comfort and safety over gas mileage.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline no guns here

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 03:50:24 AM »
GB,
     Nope, they don't have to fit like a glove.  The new Passat 4-dour 2.0 TDi is plenty big inside.  Maybe not the size of a Lincoln but big enough.  I'm 6 foot and 240 and wear a size 50 jacket.  Google up the VW Passat turbo diesel.  They are running 45-50 mpg on the forums that I read.  My 1992 Golf V6 gets high 20's on the highway.  If I really, really put my foot in it and run about 180-190 kph it drops down to below 20mpg.  I know I'm throwing around kilometers and miles but I've done the math and figured it all out in mpg.  Don't get me wrong, I love big trucks and will probably always have one, but it will sit in the garage unless I NEED it for that trip.  I'm glad you like your Tundra.  Good truck.  My 2005 Suburban gets nearly 18 on the autobahn.  If I keep it to about 60-65 mph I can eak out nearly 20.  It tows my trailers in the US without much problem even when loaded with all four horses.  I just don't see a need for that on a daily basis when I can get something that costs LESS and gets 50-60% more mileage (van).  We tend to drive two cars over 30k each per year.  45 (or even 30) mpg versus 18 or 20 is HUGE at that rate.  My old Suburban (sitting at in-laws in Ky) gets about 14 on the highway but it has 4 inches of lift and 35 inch tires.  In town it only gets about 9-10.  I'll be getting rid of it when I retire and I'll by the first small turbo diesel pickup I can find for sale in the US.  I bet even then (2010) there still won't be any...
     All I'm saying is that Americans don't DEMAND performance and fuel economy from their vehicles.  For some reason we (as a nation) tend to think that 30 mpg is wonderful when it really is only barely scratching the surface of what is realistic.  I had a 1987 Buick LeSabre that got 29 mpg back in 1993... why hasn't it improved since then?

ngh
"I feared for my life!"

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 04:06:18 AM »
First - yep I'm American through and through.  Red-blooded, red-necked and red, white and blue.  Got two safes full of guns and two Chevy Suburbans, 4 horses, 2 dogs, 4 kids and a great wife.  I'm a SNCO in the AF and stationed in Germany.  Just thought I'd throw all that out to stop any flames...

Now, I just saw a GMC ad touting some cars with 30mpg as a selling point...  Come on, what are we, stupid?  Why would I buy a 30mpg car when I was getting more than that in my 1994 Honda!  Why, almost daily I drive on the autobahn at +80 mph and get BLOWN off the road by Volkswagons, Audi's, Renaults and others with 2.0 liter turbo-diesels that get nearly 50mpg!!!  I just don't understand... someone enlighten me...  Daily I see small cars pulling horse trailers with two horses in them.  Why do we all need a 3/4 ton pickup to haul a garden trailer?  I see turbo-diesel mini-vans pulling trailers with cars on them on the autobahn at 60mph but in America we have to have a Suburban...  Don't get me wrong... I have Suburbans because they work for me.  I only bought this one because my wife absolutely refused to come back to Europe and drive a mini-van.  After a month of argueing, I finally gave in and signed for it.  As soon as I can convince some fool here to buy my 'burb it's gone... My wife finally saw reason when we rode in a friends VW van on the highway and got 28 mpg at nearly 100mph.  When will America get wise and see the potential in diesel cars, vans and light trucks?

ngh

"Daily I see small cars pulling horse trailers with two horses in them"  I am curious, how much do these small cars weigh, 2,000# or so? What does each Horse weigh & how much does the trailer weigh? I think I will stick with a heavier truck to pull Horses & such, dumb though it may be when you consider emer. stops.   :o
"I see turbo Diesel mini vans pulling trailers with cars on them"  OK, I see kids wearing pants that ride below their butt, but I don't want to, now what? If the brillant Europeans want to pull cars that are as heavy as the mini van, I am cool with THEM doing it.

I am with magooch with this one, someday Americans will get tired of the envior. goofballs running the show. I really don't care what they do in Europe.

Of course getting good mileage with the size vehicle you want is not a bad thing, but it is not the only thing.

You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 04:19:16 AM »
My boss's wife bought a new VW Beetle with a diesel engine, and she gets 50 MPG on the highway.  Germany is way ahead of us in diesel technology.  A lot of their new diesels cars are getting hight mileage, better than hybrids.  Now, if they could couple a diesel with hybrid technology, maybe 75-100 mpg.  Road and Track mag said in 20 years or so, it would be hybrid diesels. 

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 04:40:25 AM »
My boss's wife bought a new VW Beetle with a diesel engine, and she gets 50 MPG on the highway.  Germany is way ahead of us in diesel technology.  A lot of their new diesels cars are getting hight mileage, better than hybrids.  Now, if they could couple a diesel with hybrid technology, maybe 75-100 mpg.  Road and Track mag said in 20 years or so, it would be hybrid diesels. 

And I think that would be great & I often wondered why we don't have more efficient diesels. I would not mind to have a vehicle like this, but
I would also still want something a little heavier than a bug to pull a couple of horses around on wet roads in the Ozarks which was my earlier point.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 06:55:17 AM »
small car , horse trl. - pulls good !
how does it stop ?
the grade on the German super hwy. is much less than allowed here if the program i saw was true .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline torpedoman

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2008, 07:10:17 AM »
I had one of the original olds diesels top of the line 98 brougham and it got in the mid thirties in the early 80's. and that was running on the interstate in the rocking chair between two trucks at 80 mph. We have the tech just not the public demand to apply it. had to rebuild it at 90k and built it as a diesel should have been built and it was quiet and smooth and the daughter payed for her partying in high school beating cameros and firebirds  drag racing.
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 09:04:18 AM »
At one point in my life you couldn't whip me and make me take a Jap car, that changed after retiring from the military and taking over the management of a Toyota dealership.  I went from driving Ford pick-ups to driving Toyota, my entire immediate family switched from gas guzzlers to Toyota.  Things have gone full circle, I am back to a Ford pick-up, but the wife still drives a Lexus (Toyota).  I switched back to ford after having an accident while towing a bass boat.  The boat, motor and trailer weighed almost 800 pounds more than the tow vehicle and contributed directly to the accident since I didn't have enough weight in the truck for a panic stop.  I was well aware that a tow vehicle should weigh more than the towed load particularly if the trailer did not have brakes, it was my choice to tow that way.

The Toyota pick-up give me about 19 MPG on the highway running without the boat and trailer, attaching the trailer reduced the mileage to something around 10 depending on the hills, around town empty I got about 14 MPG.  I switched to a Ford F-250 Crew Cab, FX4 (4x4) with a turbo diesel.  I have much more room front and back, it is more comfortable to drive and ride in, and it get much better mileage than the Toyota did.  Setting the cruse control at 69 MPH (about 1900 RPM) I get 23-24 miles to a gallon on the highway.  Around town I have been averaging 14.9 MPG, and when I hook the boat behind the truck I still get 17-18 MPG.  It is a different story when I back under the 36 foot fifth wheel RV or under the six horse trailer, mileage drops to about 11 miles per gallon.

I am with GB to some degree, I am 6'2" and tip the scales at about 240, the cracker box cars and trucks just don't provide me the room and comfort that I want, so I will pay the price at the pumps.


Offline no guns here

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 09:27:31 PM »
Rockbilly,
     Now see... you proved part of my point.  The turbo diesel (even in a 7k lb vehicle) got better mileage and more power than the gas engine DESPITE being twice the size of the gas engine.  Now... You obviously have a need for that size and power of a vehicle.  But do you NEED it on a daily basis?  You had the Toyota so you must have fit in it...  we are about the same size.  What if we had 1/2 ton pickups with 4.0 liter td's?  It the 3/4 ton did better than the toyota I would bet the 1/2 ton would do even better.  You'd still have to size but even better mileage.  All I'm trying to get across here is... diesel has more power, better fuel economy and is clean and quiet now at least the Euro versions of diesel engines.  It costs more per gallon but has the potential of doubling your mileage in the right vehicle.  Why won't Americans get on the diesel bandwagon.  The big three (or four or five) keep saying that they will produce a 1/2 ton td pickup but it keeps getting pushed back every year. 


ngh
"I feared for my life!"

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 11:58:57 PM »
So correct me if I do not understand the laws of supply and demand. So being diesel is now quite a bit higher than gasoline in cost, you are saying we should burn more diesel?
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2008, 01:35:32 AM »
Diesel is higher because a few years ago, congress passed a law making the oil companies clean the sulfur out among other things, so now diesel is much cleaner and much higher. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2008, 01:36:37 AM »
my truck is diesel , gets 18.2 on the road . truck is a 4 door 4WD  3/4 ton chevy.
its almost time time to replace it and the diesel option ( FLEET PRICING ) is around $9000.00 extra then the trans. up grade sends it over $10000.00 . When you include deprecation on the vehicle ans maintenance it becomes clear the diesel option is for someone that uses their vehicle alot in a short period of time say 35000 or more miles a year ( with fuel prices up it may take more miles in a year to justify the cost ). What i have seen is friends who have the same truck with a gas engine and they get 15 MPG on the road . That's a 3.5 gal per mile advantage the diesel has ! add the $0.75 per gal and the $10000 up grade and its plain to see why most still buy gas engines , and did i mention the $700.00 water pump or the $1300.00 fuel pump that is a return to replace part ( your truck sits while the part is shipped ) . And for the record i have driven a ford , dodge and chevy all diesels and repair cost is higher than gas trucks for all three !
and for the record a v-10 dodge i had would out pull any of them with the 10000 lb trls i pull hooked on , its the only one that would pick up speed on a steep grade ! shame it only got 7 mpg.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline rebel dunn

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2008, 01:48:45 AM »
Part of the problem is the manufacturers will not import the smaller diesels .I remember back in the 90's Toyota built a double cab diesel but they were not available in America.,although the towel heads didn't seem to have any trouble getting one.
Rebel

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2008, 02:03:28 AM »
cramped is cramped no matter how many doors a truck has .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2008, 02:05:34 AM »
as far as towel heads they might want a truck that is light and thin skinned since they blow so many up anyway on those one way trips they like to take !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2008, 03:42:25 AM »
First - yep I'm American through and through.  Red-blooded, red-necked and red, white and blue.  Got two safes full of guns and two Chevy Suburbans, 4 horses, 2 dogs, 4 kids and a great wife.  I'm a SNCO in the AF and stationed in Germany.  Just thought I'd throw all that out to stop any flames...

Now, I just saw a GMC ad touting some cars with 30mpg as a selling point...  Come on, what are we, stupid?  Why would I buy a 30mpg car when I was getting more than that in my 1994 Honda!  Why, almost daily I drive on the autobahn at +80 mph and get BLOWN off the road by Volkswagons, Audi's, Renaults and others with 2.0 liter turbo-diesels that get nearly 50mpg!!!  I just don't understand... someone enlighten me...  Daily I see small cars pulling horse trailers with two horses in them.  Why do we all need a 3/4 ton pickup to haul a garden trailer?  I see turbo-diesel mini-vans pulling trailers with cars on them on the autobahn at 60mph but in America we have to have a Suburban...  Don't get me wrong... I have Suburbans because they work for me.  I only bought this one because my wife absolutely refused to come back to Europe and drive a mini-van.  After a month of argueing, I finally gave in and signed for it.  As soon as I can convince some fool here to buy my 'burb it's gone... My wife finally saw reason when we rode in a friends VW van on the highway and got 28 mpg at nearly 100mph.  When will America get wise and see the potential in diesel cars, vans and light trucks?

ngh

Why do Germans think it SMART to drive almost 100mph in a VW van that has the handling characteristics of a covered wagon. I long since gave up the gas guzzlers, but I also realized how STUPID it was to drive excessively FAST just because I could. That is more STUPID than burning too much gas. When we run out of gas, we will be walking. When the German crashes at 80+ mph, he will be lucky to be alive, let alone walking. America STUPID? Germany is the one whom had Hitler. jmo
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline 30-06man

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2008, 05:32:44 AM »
Diseal is too expensive now. I have a Dodge Ram 2500 w/ the Cummins Diseal and I got about 18mpg in the city and about 21on the interstates. With $4 a gallon diesel its about the same as driving a V10 all day with cheaper gas. If diesel would go down then it would be more economical to drive. Diesels rarely have parts go bad unless you have a New Ford so you shouldn't have to worry about that. And another note everyone can't afford a second car with better fuel milage. These cars normally cost upwards of 30,000 now so then its just as cheap to drive the gas guzzler. I heard on the news today that McCain wants to pass a law to make all fuels $0.18 cheaper through the summer which helps some.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

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Offline Dee

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2008, 05:39:11 AM »
All of what you say is true 30-06man, with the exception of .18 cents. It will hardly make a dent. Our economy is based on diesel. EVERYTHING is based on diesel. Coal is hauled to electrical generating plants on coal cars, towed by diesel engines, and everything from groceries to gasoline for our cars is transported by vehicles (trucks) burning diesel.
A gallon of milk is almost $5.00 where I live.
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 05:47:00 AM »
I didn't mean it would help our economy as it probably wouldn't much. It would help me some as most of my work comes in the summer and I pay for the diesel to go back and forth. I also have to add sulfur to my tank when I fill up which tips the price over $4 a gallon. Your right if they would allow diesel to go down it would help a bunch also if gas went down for the average family as we have plenty of oil if we could get to it and have places to refine it. What scares me as when I notice I see more and more kids supporting the anti's and the dems and this is what will screw everything up more. This should say why are some people losing all common sense and not why are Americans stupid. They are bringing it on themselves and yet want to blame others for their stupidity and that is a major issue.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

Rick

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2008, 06:20:36 AM »
First let me state, I don't think anyone builds a finer vehicle than a Toyota, the reliability is unquestionable.  That said, I have never ridden in a Toyota that I thought was truly comfortable.  I recall a trip I made several years ago when much younger and not as stiff as today.  I pulled into a large service station on the Ms-La line to gas up, there must have been 40 pumps, after fueling I went inside to pay.  I told the Lady at the counter that I was driving the red Toyota out on pump number 49 (or whatever), she looked at me and said I figured that was what you were driving, I ask why she said that, she said, "I can always tell when a big guy is driving a small vehicle because when they come in here to pay they are all bent over."  I didn't realize it, but there I stood with my shoulders slumped.

As for considering the operational cost for a diesel and a gasoline engine, it may be cheaper to buy fuel, it may be cheaper to do oil changes, and they may work the same to a large degree, but when you consider the longevity of a diesel engine compared to a gasoline do you really think you come out ahead by buying a gasoline vehicle?  I agree that some gasoline vehicles have accumulated a lot of mileage, but it is rare that you find a gas engine that has run for over 3000,000 miles and never had a bolt turned on it.  Of course, a lot of engine life depends on maintenance and upkeep, so it is possible, but I have found that the average person does not maintain a gas powered vehicle like a diesel owner does.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2008, 06:28:55 AM »
buy a harley.  both of mine get 50 mile to the gallon.

Offline Dee

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2008, 06:42:49 AM »
If your trying to save money why on earth would you buy a Harley? They are the most expensive production bike on the market. Buy a Honda, Suzuki, or Yamaha. They will tear the Harley up on fuel mileage, and are every bit as dependable as the Harley if not more so. Not to mention parts and labor on repairs. JMO
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Hooker

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2008, 07:09:46 AM »
Not stupid, spoiled maybe.
What gets me is that they want us to believe that to get 30mpg you have to drive an under power pip squeak car.
I had a 84 Olds Delta 88 big comfortable car 307 V8 carburated rear wheel drive plenty of power 28-30 mpg.
My new Fusion is a nice car but it's small has a 4 cly and only gets 31 mpg. Something doesn't add up here, or that just me?
A friend has a diesel powered Jetta he claims 60 mpg. Even with diesel prices higher than gas that would be cheap operating costs.
I think that  we have to economize but U.S, car manufactures need to get with the program. 30 mpg is no where near economical by today's standards and tiny uncomfortable throw away cars are not acceptable.

Pat 
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Offline DDelle338

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2008, 07:16:44 AM »
If your trying to save money why on earth would you buy a Harley? They are the most expensive production bike on the market. Buy a Honda, Suzuki, or Yamaha. They will tear the Harley up on fuel mileage, and are every bit as dependable as the Harley if not more so. Not to mention parts and labor on repairs. JMO

  You buy a Harley to keep american workers working. And keep most of the money paid for it in AMERICA's economy.
And,,, as they say, "If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand".
 
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2008, 07:31:51 AM »
i dont know dee.  new, maybe.  one i bought for 9500, hasnt cost me a dime except to gas it up and routine maintance.   the other i traded my 65 lpan for,  and it is more of the same.    

go out and buy another brand. see what they are asking.   if i want to, either one of the  bikes i have i can sell for what i have in them.  they should never be worth less.   of course,  i bought them right.    

Offline Dee

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2008, 07:36:49 AM »
If your trying to save money why on earth would you buy a Harley? They are the most expensive production bike on the market. Buy a Honda, Suzuki, or Yamaha. They will tear the Harley up on fuel mileage, and are every bit as dependable as the Harley if not more so. Not to mention parts and labor on repairs. JMO

  You buy a Harley to keep american workers working. And keep most of the money paid for it in AMERICA's economy.
And,,, as they say, "If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand".
 

Dude their building these bikes in America and have been for years. "If you didn't know that, then YOU don't understand". To think otherwise, would be to say, we should never drive ANYTHING but, Ford, GM, or Chrysler products. It applies to cycles just as it does to cars. You save money "when" it can be saved. Harley is hardly an economic purchase, but in fact is quite the contrary. You can buy a used DEPENDABLE Japanese bike for 1/4 the price of a used Harley. Now that makes far more sense than your idea.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline myronman3

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2008, 09:10:56 AM »
until you have to sell it,  then you are flat out your money. 

either way, your way or mine.   and i am still getting 50mpg; and there arent very many that will do better than that. 

Offline myronman3

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Re: Why is America stupid???
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2008, 09:13:49 AM »
the best i know of is the buell blast,  73mpg highway.