herters press for swageing?

[bill439]

have an herters O press, what is the llargest jacketed bullet I could use this press to swage?  or should I just get a heaver press?

[bill439]

Ok, anyone using this press to swage anything? bill439

[iiranger]

Practically all the goods were "contracted" and look just like another company's goods... Great quality from around the globe, but not "made" by Herters...

Corbin, Dave (in his books) suggests these reloading presses for pure lead pistol bullets with half jackets and very small rifle bullets, i.e. 224 and 243. .257 maybe. Brother Richard Corbin had dies for a .308. You are using the less strong and wear resistant sleeve bearings and heavy use will wear much faster, but for a few...

Big rub, does your press take standard shell holders? There is an adapter for the screw in that Herter used to todays standard, the slip in, t shape. I think Ch4d.com furnishes one. They also make dies for the pistol bullet making. luck.

[bill439]

iiranger, thanks for your reply, you have given me the info I think i need.  The press in question is I beleve the largest O type press that Herters offered for reloading and has an adjustment to shorten the stroke of the ram (1 1/2") for swagging operations.  The ram does not accept shellholders like rcbs, but the larger shellholders for it are held in place by two opposing set screws while the head of the shellholder is flush with the top of the ram.  I have some swagging dies (38-357cal) that I have used on this press that are from Herters as well.  The pistol dies require no effort at all to operate using a 1/2 jacket and pure lead.  I am thinking I will be able to work some .224 and maybe .243 and stop at that point.  I am going to call mr. corbin and see what he thinks I will need and if this press set-up is ok.  Thanks, bill439

[bill439]

Oops, the 1 1/2" refers to the diameter of the ram not the length of stroke.  anyway thanks again.  bill439

[deltecs]

Practically all the goods were "contracted" and look just like another company's goods... Great quality from around the globe, but not "made" by Herters...

Corbin, Dave (in his books) suggests these reloading presses for pure lead pistol bullets with half jackets and very small rifle bullets, i.e. 224 and 243. .257 maybe. Brother Richard Corbin had dies for a .308. You are using the less strong and wear resistant sleeve bearings and heavy use will wear much faster, but for a few...

Big rub, does your press take standard shell holders? There is an adapter for the screw in that Herter used to todays standard, the slip in, t shape. I think Ch4d.com furnishes one. They also make dies for the pistol bullet making. luck.

I don't know that the O type Herters press would be ok for swaging bullets, but I've a Herters "C" style single stage press that I bought in the mid 60's.  I've loaded over 10,000 rounds in this press and have never had a problem.  The bore still lines up true, all fittings are tight, and I still have plenty of mechanical advantage for full length sizing on any hunting round.  Yes, shell holders are a problem to obtain to fit the Herters press, but I don't think of it as less strong, or less wear resistant, than any other press.  I think someone is just brand conscience and bit snobby. 

[talon]

 I believe irranger was correct in his evaluations and statements. Some reloading presses may look massive and strong, but they just aren't built to swage fully  jacketed bullets above 25 caliber. I'm sure that you may be able to swage several 30 caliber ones before the togles break or the frame stretches, but the force differences between resizing a cartridge case and swaging a bullet is about 3 to 1 at the minimum. For instance, do you think you could reform a 300 Win Mag case into a .270 on a reloading press? You could on my bullet swaging press ( if the common .270 sizing die could take the pressure,,, which it couldn't.) !

[gitano]

I make .510" jacketed bullets on my Lachmiller 100 press. Several hundred of them so far. I asked repeatedly for "why" I couldn't do it, and got very vague answers and none by anyone that had actually tried it. I got tired of being told, "Because I say so", so I just did it. I make jackets from "magnum" rifle  cases like 7mm RM, 300 RM, etc., and cores from Lee .458" cast bullet moulds. I don't shoot competitively, but I have killed moose with my bullets, and am very satified with their precision from my .50 Alaskan and 50-90 Sharpes. No commercially available bullets shoot more precisely than my hand-made ones.

There is NO DOUBT that Corbins (both of them) and Blackmon make dies and other equipment that make bullet-making EASIER on the maker than my equipment does. There is NO WAY it would be economically feasible to make bullets commercially using my tools and methods. I'm CERTAIN that getting consistent results requires less effort with their equipment. BUT... The cost of my equipment has been AT LEAST 1 tenth the cost of their equipment. (I made my own dies too.) For the guy that doesn't want to part with AT LEAST $2000 to make a few hundred bullets for himself, I am here to tell you, "Go get 'em." It MOST CERTAINLY can be done on a "regular" reloading press.

Paul

[iiranger]

I was a big fan of Herter products until they went bust. The service was "iffy" at best and SUCKED at times. Know one man, retired gunsmith now, who bought a swage press just like the CH that CH sold. It broke early in use.

I was quoting Mr. Dave Corbin, swage.com or corbins.com or , his books, available for free download or review, sans pictures from the web site. Mr. Richard, his brother, rceco.com has a different business and they don't agree fully, brothers--who would guess??? sarcasm... both find to do business with. Many make dies for the .22 and .24 bullets in reloading presses. Do your homework and see what your budget can stand. As Mr. G said, his way much cheaper, for a few. Luck. Happy New year.

[Sweetwater]

Guess that's why I've never replaced Dad's 1957 Herter's Super Model 3 C-press ($16.75 plus shipping) with a newer, more up to date press. ($$$$$$)
50-plus years of flawless operation, 10 of which I shot competitively. It will definitely outlast me. I don't know about sizing a 300 win mag into a 270 (as in another post), but I do know it will size 30-06 into 6.5x55 with one clean stroke of the handle. It will also take 8x57 to 257Roberts the same way and back again. I fully expect the press is up to anything I ask it to do and then some. I see the question of strength as a non-issue and agree as posted. Just do it. Questionable service? Don't know, never needed any!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[bill439]

I had backed off any plans to do swageing using the herters press, but now i am charged up with the coments made by sweetwater and gitano - thanks for your input.  I will start building my dies very soon.  The press that i have is maybe twice as stout as the c press mentioned by gitano and I agree that as he said this will not be a comercial venture.  Hope to be able to follow in Mr. paul's footsteps.  let you know when i get done.   Thanks to all, Bill439

[Lead pot]

If your going to use a loading press for swaging bullets your pretty much limited to pure lead with 1/2 or 3/4 jackets using most O frame presses swaging pistol bullets and even those you will most likely be screwing the dies up and down to get the power stroke at almost the top of the ram travel or you will be putting all your weight on the puers handle.
I started swaging with the RCBS A-2 press using Hemp dies and it worked good for pistol bullets and small rifle like .22 using rim fire brass for jackets.
If you want to go with a loading press for swaging  using the CH4D swage dies or the Corbin M dies the RCBS A-4 Big Max would be a better press to use.
With this press you can modify it to a shorter stroke.

LP.

[gitano]

I agree with all that Lead pot says about "stroke". To make the .510"s I make, I must adjust my die 12 times for each bullet, (three full rotations, 1/4 rotation per stroke). However, the truth is, I make fully jacketed bullets of .511" diameter, for use in rifles chambered in 50 Alaskan and .50-90 Sharps, and they are made using cast, wheel-weight cores. Again, however, there are mitigating circumstances that allow the use of full-length jackets and WW cores in a reloading press.

First, the jackets are made from the mouth-end of "magnum" cases - like .338 WM, 7mm RM, etc. By doing that, the jacket is already somewhat pre-formed - the neck and shoulder have already "reduced" the diameter a long way toward "pointed". Using commercially available "cup" jackets would make the process more difficult for sure.

Second, the core I use is already almost formed as it falls from the mould that casts it - A Lee .457-500-3R "Postell". These two factors ("pre-formed" jacket and core), plus "creeping up" on the end-point, (12 strokes on a handloading press vs. one on a "real" swaging press), allow me to make bullets of uniform weight (plus or minus 1.5 grains for 550-grain bullets). If I had to use cylindrical billets to start with, I could still do it, but it would increase the difficulty and labor. In fact, I swage unjacketed .510" bullets from commercially cast "hard" .458" bullets that are essentially cylindrical to start with. The outcome is good, but it takes time.

The diameter is uniform coming from my forming die, at 0.5138". I run the just-swaged bullets through a Lee .510 Sizer, and they exit at 0.5110". Exactly where I want them.

As I said above, it's a labor-intensive process not suitable for "production mode", commercial or otherwise. But there is precious little appreciation of the value of CAN using-my-free-labor, versus, CAN'T without-parting-with-the-better-part-of-$2000. Furthermore, I think there is a real failure to appreciate, from a business perspective, the value of getting people to the CAN "place". If the person is genuinely interested in making bullets seriously, either for business or substantial personal use, they will get tired of the "slow and tedious" pretty quick, and want to move up to the more capable and sophisticated equipment. That's good for the business of those that make bullet swaging equipment.

My willingness to continue to participate in 'discussions' on the web about bullet swaging "cheaply", with  those that denigrate the "home-made" process, (especially those that have not tried it), is due in large part to the "attitude" every one of the maufacturers of bullet-swaging equipment with which I have so far spoken. As long as you are doing things "their way", they are VERY helpful. Seriously! VERY Helpful. But suggest doing it "on the cheap", and they get downright "snooty". Then, a whole armload of their customers get on these forums and harrumph around spouting "the company line" that you CAN'T do it on the cheap.

And that is NOT TRUE.

You CAN.

It's just difficult.

If I can find the time here soon, I will post a "picture story" of how I make my bullets. Including how I use VERY cheap ($10 +S&H) reamers to make my dies. My intent would be to provide a "reality check" for all. Hopefully, a picture essay will:  1) Discourage all that aren't willing to do a lot of work if they want to make bullets on a reloading press; 2) Discourage all that are interested in making bullets as a business and want to do it on a handloading press; and 3) Encourage the few that are wanting to 'give it a try' but have been discouraged by so many experts telling them that they CAN'T unless they're willing to take out a second mortgage.

My continued participating in the discussion here at Graybeard Outdoors is due in large part to the 'gentlemanliness' of eveyone that has so far posted. As a result, I think we have teased some truth out into the light.

Paul

"You will know the truth and the truth will set you free."

[gitano]

My intent with the following is not to provide a tutorial but rather to verify that I haven't been 'blowing smoke'. It's pretty easy to say "I did..." and so on. So, for those with doubts about my veracity on this subject, I provide the folowing. It's not a photo-essay. I decided at this point that anyone that wants more explicit "how to" can get in touch with me via emial or PM.

Here is a picture of the starting materials if you will. On the left is, I believe, a fired 300 Winchester Magnum case. Next, moving from left to right is the case after having had the belt and neck turned off, and the case parted, separating it into two "jackets". Next is the Lee 458-500-3R cast (from wheel weights) "Postell" bullet that is the core. It fits snugly in either of the 'jackets'. To the right are two finished bullets made from "front end" jackets. The one on the left used a "front end" on which I did not remove the neck.



Here is a close up of the core, jacket and finished bullet:



Here is a picture of the bullet produced when the neck isn't parted off. This bullet may look a little 'funky'; that's because it is one I pulled out of my scrap bin for making these pictures. All the good ones are loaded.



Here are two bullets made from the "back end". One a flat-base, and one a "boat-tail". The back end jacket "cup" is on the left. If I am making a boat-tail, I turn it when I turn the belt off.



Here are some more finished bullets with calculated BCs.



Here are some swaged solid "lead" (WW) made from my cast .510s and some Oregon trail Silver Bullet 405-grain .458s. The original is on the left an the finished on the right.




Here are some loaded 50 Alaskan and .50-90 Sharps. The Alaskan is on the left.



And here are a couple of targets shot with each. The Sharps on the left, and the Alaskan on the right. Range was 50 yds, from a rest, open sights.



And here are a few I recoverd from the very rocky backstop. On the left is the only one with a "separated jacket" I have so far found. (Note the impression of the inside of the head on the bottom of the core.) Personally, I couldn't care less if the jacket separates. I've always had a tough time buying that a bullet "failed" just because the jacket and core separated. Frankly I find it "incongruous" (to put it nicely) that the person claiming that the bullet "failed" dug the parts out of a dead animal.



Here are some failures. I was trying to get longer-jacketed "back ends". Unfortunately, the whole un-swaged bullet wouldn't fit in the die.



Of course I realize that bullets like these aren't for everyone. But they are for ME. They shoot just as straight as the commercial bullets I buy, and they're a dang-sight cheaper. Here's a little proof of their "real-life" effectiveness. This bull ran 5 body-lengths after being hit behind the shoulder with one of the "front end" bullets from the Alaskan.



I'll take some pictures of my die and post them later.

Paul

[bill439]

Gitano, inspired again, Thank you for your advice and your time to share your work with myself and others.  Looking to build a 50-90 in the future on a martini-henry, should be cool.  I don't have all the materials to make the dies yet (been busy with work ect.) but hope to get started soon.   This Herter Press does have the feature of reducing the length of stroke 2 to 1 for more leverage.  I wish I had one of their old catalogs as I am sure that this press is made for using the swage tools they sold.  Thanks to everyone, Bill439

[gitano]

Bill439,

I don't think you are going to get the .59-90 Sharps to fit a Martini-Henry action. The .50 Alaskan is just barely short enough to fit my Martini-Enfield action. I have to have the lever in the 'ejection' positon to load it, and as you can see from the above pictures, the .50-90 Sharps is considerably longer than the Alaskan. You'll want to check that out before you get too far down the 'building' path.

Paul

[eye shot]

gitano
How about making your own dies? Sounds interesting.

[gitano]

It's almost absurdly easy.

The reamer is a "Tree" reamer with a max diameter the same size or smaller than the caliber bullet I am trying to form. I'll use the .510" as the example. You can buy a metric 13mm (0.5118" max diameter) Tree-form reamer for about $13 +S&H, but I used a 1/2" one (0.500"). (Here's a 3/8" one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290014994025)

I start with a 1" billet of 12L14 or 4140, (or what ever you want), about 4" long. I drill a hole completely through it's center using a drill diameter equal to the size of the meplat I want on the finished bullet. No smaller than 0.125" for the .510" bullets.

Once the through-hole is drilled, I insert the tree-form reamer in my tool-holder on my lathe and use as if I was drilling a hole. At first, the going is pretty good, but as more of the reamer is actually cutting, I am reduced to advancing the reamer only approximately 0.050" to 0.100" before retracting it and removing chips. I continue advancig the reamer to a depth appropriate for the length of bullet I intend to make.

Now a 0.500" reamer, won't make a die suitable for swaging a 0.510" bullet. That's why the reamer is in the tool holder on the saddle instead of in the tailstock. Using the controls on the saddle, I move the reamer "in" (toward my bellybutton) the appropriate amount to ream the proper final diameter.

These reamers leave a very good finish, but I still polish the inside with a "bullet tip" rubber abrasive, and finish with crocus paper.At this point I reduce the OD of the die to 7/8" (if you've got 7/8" stock, this step is avoided), and then cut the 7/8x14 threads that fit the standard handloading press.

I recently got an oven in which I can heat treat metal, but I have yet to use it to heat treat these dies. Even 12L15 is going to last for several hundred bullets before it starts wearing enough to even measure. Even then, the Lee sizing die, (see next step), will take care of several thousandths 'growth' before a new die would need to be cut.

That's all for making the dies.

I then simply screw the die into the press, assemble the jacket and core, lube to the exterior of the jacket, and swage the bullet. When the bullet is fully formed, I use the 1/8" drill rod to tap the bullet out of the die.

Because I want the final size to be determined by 'squeezing' instead of 'filling out', my swaging die drops a bullet a bit larger than what I want as a finished size. I then run the bullet through a Lee sizing die, (squeezing it down), and it pops out the exact size I want.

Of course the Tree-form reamer has the profile I want for my bullets, and tree-form reamers come in a variety of "normal" diameters like 1/4" (useful for .257 to probably .277 caliber), 3/8" (useful for .375 to probably .425 caliber), plus 5,6,7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 mm, etc. There are some other reamer forms like "round point" that might produce an interesting bullet form. If you want some other form, you'll have to have a custom reamer cut. I think PTG (Pacific Tool and Gauge) will do it for something over $100.

Paul

PS - While it wouldn't be my first choice, I think the reaming could be accomplished with a good drill press and a precision vice - one in which you could control the postioning with 0.001" precision. I would assume if you were going to use a drill press it would be because you didn't have a lathe. That being the case, cutting the threads would need to be accomplished with 7/8x14 thread-cutting die. OR... You could start with a prethreaded die blank (available from Midway USA for $25 http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=512398) held in the vice and the reamer in the drill chuck.

Paul

[sixgun_symphony]

Check ebay for shell holders and rams to obsolete presses.