Author Topic: The Polygamist thing... (Read 7514 times)

no guns here · « **on:** April 22, 2008, 01:45:10 AM »

First let me clarify my position. I DO NOT approve of the lifestyle that the polygamist compound promoted. I DO NOT approve of the "marriage" of young girls/women under the age of 18. I DO NOT approve of the arranged marriages, re-assignement of wives and children to new husbands or anything like that.

Now, I have real heartburn with the State of Texas for their raid on that compound. What pretext did they have for taking those kids? What pretext did they have for breaking up the families? How do they justify MANDATORY DNA confiscation and testing? Does any of this bother anyone else???

The allegation was that a teenaged girl was beaten and forced to have sex with her older husband. How does that justify taking 400 kids? I thought the whole point of the legal process was to prosecute the ones who commit the crimes. What crime was committed by the parents of these kids? Okay, polygamy is a crime. You punish the guilty... the husband. You don't come in with armed officers and rip kids away from their parents. How does taking some teenaged boys and locking them away somewhere help to find the guy ( who was supposed to be 50 ) that the caller alleged had raped her. What will Texas do when they determine the parentage of the kids? Will they then "reassign" children to new parents? Will they then reassign wives to husbands? You know, someone made an allegation against one unknown assailant and now over 400 kids are suffering. These people all had the same belief structure... pretty much so does everyone that lives on my base. So, if someone alleged a crime was committed on base I guess the government would come and haul away all of our kids and wives?

?? I think Texas really stepped on it's collective penile appendage on this one.

ngh

billy_56081 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2008, 01:53:01 AM »

My question is, where is the ACLU on this? If these people were not white and at least in the ACLU's eyes Christan. I bet they would be screaming their heads off about religious persecution.

I do not believe they have the girl who allegedly called in about the abuse. Without her I have a feeling there will be alot of the money from the Texas taxpayers going into this groups pockets.

no guns here · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2008, 02:12:28 AM »

Thing is... they do have her. They arrested a 35 yo black woman in Colorado that has a history of phoning in false allegations. Texas Rangerss were involved.

ngh

Goat_Roper · « **Reply #3 on:** April 22, 2008, 02:16:40 AM »

The ACLU has spoken out about this.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/

rockbilly · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2008, 03:38:40 AM »

As the father of two daughters I think any group that subjects a girl under the age of 18 to the thing the girls in this sect were subjected to deserves to be prosecuted. As for the State of Texas, one of prudent judgment would agree they were fully justified in raiding and removing any, and all children who were in a position to be abused by the group. Something is sadly wrong with their teachings when an adult man does not, or is not, aware that it is unlawful to engage in sexual activity with a minor child.

This kind of activity is becoming more common because people condone it. I have closely watched another group that has similar practices, and hopefully is on their way down, their compound is almost in my backyard. I had a minor business dealing with the leader of this sect several years ago, it didn't take me long to figure out he is a con artist, and survives by taking advantage of others. This group practices many of the same things the Eldarado group does. Former members have stated that he professes it is proper for him to have sex with ANY member of the congregation. Check his group out:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/yahweh.html

To me, a lot of things many of the so called sects engaged in are immoral, or illegal, and against the teachings most of us are accustom to, or contrary to the view of society in general.

I will refrain from condemning the State of Texas until they have hacked this out and the chips have fallen. I venture to say, the children will be better off after is is over, to me that is the important issue.

rex6666 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2008, 03:39:17 AM »

The thing is once the law went in and found under age girls pregnant, CPS stepped in, once this happened the allegations of the phone call went out the window, CPS doesn't operate the same as
criminal cases. If their is a child involved Cps can and will take over, i am not a big fan of CPS , but
in this case what you are talking about is looking for one girl that called if you don't find her back off
and let the 13-14 year old girls keep getting pregnant. I guess to some people it is OK to use the 13-14
year old girls because they are all of the same mind set, These girls never get a chance to have a
different mind set, never get a chance to leave or stay, never get an op pertunity to think for them selves.
I guess it would be best to leave them alone, they don't need to have any thoughts or rights
of their on, by the time they are 18-20 they KNOW theirs is the only way.
How about your children do you give them a chance to explore new ideas, think some thing different
than you. Yeah the state of Texas has Stepped in some thing and i hope they grind the heel of this boot.

ms · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2008, 03:41:42 AM »

I think it's wrong what the government is doing to these people.

rex6666 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2008, 04:08:01 AM »

ms
are we to believe you condone this kind of treatment of under age girls?
rockbilly
I have had some business dealings with a yahweh group i believe they are around Abilene, TX.
these are strange people, this group leader gets the people jobs (everyone works) he collects their pay
and decides the best way to spend it, of course if that is the way you want to live, power to you.
These children raised in these compounds never get a chance at any other life, they are born being
taught by older men that this is the way, and they die never knowing they have thoughts of their own.
I am not big on the gov. control, but some times some one has to do something.
I guess for some of you it is OK if a man wants to do anything he wants with HIS underage daughters
I THINK IT IS WRONG WHAT THE GOV. IS DOING TO THESE PEOPLE
what about what these people are doing to thier daughters HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jimster · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2008, 04:21:10 AM »

I think the government best charge someone with something right quick, no matter what we all "think" they did, or didn't do...

Government can do this to any one of us as well....we best keep government in check.

Now the government is in a position to "make things up"....to save their own a**...from their case falling apart....and yup...they will try like hell to come up with something...anything...to make what they did look right now.

I know what your saying about this cult....just remember...you give government the right to fly into places like this and take kids...they can do it to any one of us as well, with no proof or charges. Might want to think about that.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2008, 04:34:24 AM »

In my opinion, the only case the government has is if any of the "wives" are under 18, then prosecute the "husband" for bigomy and child abuse. The children should go back to their mothers in my opinion until they find out about these so called husbands and fathers, and prosecute them. I'm not a womens libber, but these women are treated like Muslim women, like cattle.

rex6666 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2008, 04:43:48 AM »

Well jimster what gov. are we talking about?
State of TX and TX. Rangers and CPS
don't remember any big time cover ups by the Rangers.
I think if you look around CPS operate the same i all states, don't tell me about CPS, i thought i was going
to have to go to Fl. and kidknapp a 5 and 7 year old from their mother, the city law and judges would do
nothing finally the cps went and just talked to her and told her the opptions and she voluntarily gave
the boys up.

no guns here · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2008, 04:44:54 AM »

Rockbilly,
Then where is the State of Texas CPS when there are 13-17 yo girls getting pregnant all over the state?? Why don't they come and take away the girls and all of the other kids in their school??? How do you them justify taking ALL children? The only allegations involved a 16 yo GIRL! How in any way does that justify taking 4 year old boys? So I guess in the future if my next door neighbors kid alleges child abuse then the state should come get every kid in the neighborhood? I could see them coming in and looking for one girl named "sarah" or whatever? But they didn't find her. They should have left. If they want to prosecute them for polygamy, that's another story. Build the case and prosecute them one by one. If they want to prosecute them for incest or rape or whatever, build the case and prosecute them. You can't just arbitrarily arrest whole communities and THEN start investigations to see what you can pin on them! Where are we? Last time I checked we aren't in Russia, China, Nazi Germany or anywhere like that. The last time I re-enlisted I re-enlisted protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Our nation anthem says "the land of the free". Our rule of law has always been based on a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. In this case the State of Texas (which has always championed freedom) has violated every one of those principles!!!

ms · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2008, 04:50:19 AM »

This is another Waco without blood shed. If the polygamist were black nothing would happen.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2008, 06:02:27 AM »

I am having a hard time deciding who to be more disgusted with. Are the adult leaders/parents, the Texan authorities, or the headline news carnival barkers most responsible for the circus down there. I'm afraid that at the bottom of this will be an overzealous prosecutor or other public official with political ambitions. Many of these children are now or soon will be scarred for the rest of their lives. I don't see this concern for the genetic lineage of the "inner city welfare unmarried mothers crowd".

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2008, 06:03:08 AM »

This is a tough one, like Waco. We are supposed to have freedom of religion. However, underage children shouldn't be allowed to marry, or it would be statutory rape. Like I said, the so called husbands and fathers of the children should have been the ones rounded up, not the women and children. Sort it out from there.

Dee · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2008, 10:21:54 AM »

Quote from: no guns here on April 22, 2008, 01:45:10 AM

First let me clarify my position. I DO NOT approve of the lifestyle that the polygamist compound promoted. I DO NOT approve of the "marriage" of young girls/women under the age of 18. I DO NOT approve of the arranged marriages, re-assignement of wives and children to new husbands or anything like that.

Now, I have real heartburn with the State of Texas for their raid on that compound. What pretext did they have for taking those kids? What pretext did they have for breaking up the families? How do they justify MANDATORY DNA confiscation and testing? Does any of this bother anyone else???

The allegation was that a teenaged girl was beaten and forced to have sex with her older husband. How does that justify taking 400 kids? I thought the whole point of the legal process was to prosecute the ones who commit the crimes. What crime was committed by the parents of these kids? Okay, polygamy is a crime. You punish the guilty... the husband. You don't come in with armed officers and rip kids away from their parents. How does taking some teenaged boys and locking them away somewhere help to find the guy ( who was supposed to be 50 ) that the caller alleged had raped her. What will Texas do when they determine the parentage of the kids? Will they then "reassign" children to new parents? Will they then reassign wives to husbands? You know, someone made an allegation against one unknown assailant and now over 400 kids are suffering. These people all had the same belief structure... pretty much so does everyone that lives on my base. So, if someone alleged a crime was committed on base I guess the government would come and haul away all of our kids and wives??? I think Texas really stepped on it's collective penile appendage on this one.

ngh

I agree with pretty much everything you said here with one small exception. The under 18 years of age part. I am 58 years old, and I have watched this age thing being debated for about the last 25 years. Most of the time it is pure speculation on maturity, and I will give an example or two, by saying in advance that girls under the age of 18, and yes, even 16 have been getting married "willingly" for centuries, and the marriages have worked. My grandmother was married when she was 16. She was the daughter of a widower, and my grandmother literally raised her two younger brothers, and her sister was an infant when her mother died. Her father never remarried. Long story short, my grandmother was married 60 years.
My own mother was also 16 "BARELY" and Dad was almost 20. AND NO! It wasn't a have to marriage. They married in 1948, and Dad died last year. They were never separated a day.
Back in the fifties and early sixties it was common for girls younger than 18 to get married, and MOST OF THE TIME it was to older men. Most of these marriages are still together.
Disagree if you will, but much is being made of this age difference and I believe it holds little water. FORCE is an entirely different issue. JMO

As a side note, young boys down to 6 years old used to be capable of loading the family musket, stalking, killing, butchering, and toting back to the cabin a deer to feed the family. This happened many times when the father was laid up with sickness or injury, had died, or gone off some where to work.
Now a days we can teach a teenager to fly a jet, run the most complicated computer, and show utter amazement that a pre-teen could hack into the Pentagon computer system, but treat him like an infant when it comes to expecting any responsibility out of him. Once again however. JMO

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2008, 10:39:29 AM »

i had a cousin get married at 14 , no kids until 16 so don't go there !
forget the marriage age issue . forget the several wife deal that's a law in this land !
look at the mind control and brain washing the real danger here !

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2008, 11:03:06 AM »

Any way you look at it, it is just plain wrong what is going on there. These young girls are being molested and raped. I for one am happy the state stepped in. They wine they want their children back. They don't deserve these children and this is child abuse plain and simple. Dale

rockbilly · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2008, 11:44:58 AM »

No Guns Here, you are very quick to jump to conclusions, and evidently ignorant of an investigation process. The State had probable cause when they entered the compound, after arriving Child Protective Service noted several discrepancies that prompted the removal of the children. The action taken here differs very little from the action taken on any such investigation. As for "13-17 yo girls getting pregnant all over the state," the difference is they were not held in a confined environment and taken advantage of by a group of perverted older men. If they were, and the facts made known the violator is charged and likely spends a vacation at the tax payers expense. The truth, most 13-17 year old girls get pregnant as the result of a relationship between two under-aged children, not by an adult perpetrator.

As I said in my earlier post, I have lived in close contact to a similar group for years. I spent a short period as a business partner to the leader, and have seen first hand how these sick puppies take advantage of others, most often those that are weak and can't think for themselves. The near by group seeks out those that they can enslave, and/or take advantage of by mental manipulation. To ignore them would be more in line with Russia, China or Nazi German.

While I don't think it is any of governments business about the arrangement between to consenting adults, I do have a problem with those that take advantage of the weak, mental unbalanced, or the children.

ms · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2008, 11:57:38 AM »

look at the mind control and brain washing the real danger here ! Are government !

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2008, 12:04:41 PM »

Part of the problem with this whole thing is they don't even know who the mom's and dad's are that's why they want the dna. It sounds to me like the kids don't even know who there birth mothers really are. Kurt

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #21 on:** April 22, 2008, 12:25:16 PM »

Another thing they said on the news today was that these people have a very small gene poll and have been inter breeding for generations. If that is the case then there a some definite retards there. How can the state not step in? Dale

jimster · « **Reply #22 on:** April 22, 2008, 01:12:04 PM »

I would think the State could "step in" without grabbing every kid in the whole place. I'm not arguing the fact that things could be investigated, but the way I see it, they put themselves on shaky ground without building any evidence at all and separating everyone. Right, I don't like what I "think" was going on...but I don't know what was going on with everyone, I only know what the rumor is now. Like I said, they will have to find something now....and I don't like it when they "have to" find something...that is the position some of them are in now. I figure they could have visited there a few times and gathered some information and stepped in a little slower, maybe ALL the kids were not at risk, I don't know. The tax payers will flip the bill now for whatever happens, that included building a case, or paying back a bunch that proves innocent. If they they do. I just figure things could have been done a little different. If they don't build a case on every single kid and parent now...there's going to be a healthy withdraw from the State bank.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #23 on:** April 22, 2008, 01:18:29 PM »

Quote from: jimster on April 22, 2008, 04:21:10 AM

I think the government best charge someone with something right quick, no matter what we all "think" they did, or didn't do...

Government can do this to any one of us as well....we best keep government in check.

Now the government is in a position to "make things up"....to save their own a**...from their case falling apart....and yup...they will try like hell to come up with something...anything...to make what they did look right now.

I know what your saying about this cult....just remember...you give government the right to fly into places like this and take kids...they can do it to any one of us as well, with no proof or charges. Might want to think about that.

This one has been bothering me as well........and I do agree, if they have a case, they need to make it.......

So, your neighbor doesn't like what your teaching you kids.......calls child protective services.......you got trouble.....right or wrong.....

This is another very slippery slope we're starting down.......and sure smells of religious persecution to me.......

If they seized a particular kid, for a particular reason, and approached it on a case by case basis it would seem much more credible to me....

rex6666 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 22, 2008, 02:31:32 PM »

Man some of you need to be on the conspiracy forum. They trying to build a case as quick as they can, i am sure they found things going on that they have no idea of. You guys are already
building another Waco. i guess it would be better in your minds to just back off and let it go on, and you want to talk about Hitler, i guess no one should have stopped him. I hope if i ever get in trouble and need help, like some one has me locked up and beating or raping me, i hope they don't call you because you will be too afraid you might step on some ones toes, and it might cost you some thing. They have to sort it out, and some times that doesn't happen at the snap of your finger, no one has been shot. If you check into you CPS laws you will be shocked
if your child calls them and says you are abusing them they will come get the child until they sort it out. I hope i never lose all respect for the gov. and law enforcement like some of you, then everyone can just do as they please, and you guys will be their to back them up, do you drive to storm areas to help loot.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #25 on:** April 22, 2008, 02:45:33 PM »

You see this is where it is iff'y with me. I do not agree in the abuse of children by any means but you got kids that will make that phone call to CPS because they got yelled at or had their butt spanked. Trust me I had my ass spanked plenty of times as a child. I was yelled at plenty as a child. I believe one of the problems of this country is you can't spank your child anymore. I have been spanked plenty as a child and I think it helped me realize between right and wrong. Dale

beemanbeme · « **Reply #26 on:** April 22, 2008, 03:02:08 PM »

"they're trying to build a case as quick as they can" that's what some of us have a prob with. They've rounded up a whole slew of folks and now they're looking for something to book them for. Ain't that kinda ass-backwards? How many underaged girls have they found pregnant? What age? Who got them pregnant? Does anyone REALLY know as yet?
The fact that all the kids feel family ties to all the adults is kinda nice, I think.. Once again, let's wait until the spin doctors and the hysterical talking heads calm down a bit before we start hanging folks.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2008, 03:12:50 PM »

Kind of nice?

Come on now these children are brain washed along with their mothers. Don't you see this? Dale

rex6666 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 22, 2008, 03:32:31 PM »

beeman
i guess they could look Thur the fence1/2 mile away and say "well i think billy Joe did something, or was that Buford. we better not go in now lets come back in a year and look again. It seems you have already built a case and haven't heard the evidence yet, and in answer to your questions that is what they are trying to find out SEE THEY HAD TO GO IN TO FIND OUT ANY THING, NOT
JUST ASSUME THE GOV. WAS WRONG. Cps said their were girls as young as 14 that were pregnant but that is OK isn't it, probably just lies.
If i felt as some of you do about our gov. i believe i would move to a country i could trust, lets see France, no Muslim have taken it, Mexico no never could trust anything there. WHERE would be
a better place, maybe Canada, do they let you bit%h at the gov. all day.

torpedoman · « **Reply #29 on:** April 22, 2008, 05:35:38 PM »

If there was a caller they worked for texas .It is all a setup to disrupt away of life that is different for the average and a religion that is different. Those kids will be a lot better in the care of the great state of texas than living with their people. Why here in washington state we have only had 3 or 4 kids killed or starved to death this year while in the care of foster parents under the supervision of the state.