The Polygamist thing...

[myronman3]

i aint going to slam on rex,  but i do agree that he seems to have access to more facts than the rest of us.   maybe he should go on down and explain exactly who did what to whom.   

   we are trying to make a point, rex,  but you wont recognize what we are saying.   seperate your gut reaction,  look at the KNOWN FACTS.  the only KNOWN FACT so far is that no one really knows what the hell was going on.   just speculation thus far.   so there are some young girls pregnant.  you know for a fact who did it?  a 40 year old man or a 14 year old boyfriend?   you seem to know, so fill us in.  tell us, exactly who did what to whom?   

[SHOOTALL]

the news said after the DNA test some of the adults were found to be kids and more were removed , talk about a crime scene !
has anyone addressed the idea that some of the relationships could have been what the young person wanted ? seems teachers and students do it all the time !
I know of 4 such relationships in my high school  one couple split up - father found out , one married , one couple ended when she crashed a plane and has been in a hospital ever since the last couple are still having an affair as he was married and has remained so - she never did . Oh yea i had 28 classmates in my class and finished high school in1974 .
This is nothing new , maybe some is illegal maybe some aint
't

[Dixie Dude]

A lot of what we are doing is speculation.  Some is illegal, some borders on religious liberty, some on personal freedom of choice.  If some of the girls were under 16, as the law states, forcing marriage is illegal, then the so-called husband should be prosecuted.  Marrying more than one spouse is illegal, but if they only "married" in the "church" and no license obtained, then there is not much you can do here legally.   

[SHOOTALL]

when the facts come out it will be interesting reading !

[zombiewolf]

Well, from what I've been reading, the women and children have been taught from very early to distrust and lie to outsiders. They are supposed to have been caught giving different names and calling different women their mothers, etc. I suspect by now some of the cops are ready to tattoo numbers on foreheads.

From what I've read about the founding of assorted churches/religions/whatever, more than a few were set up by power hungry perverts wanting some group to fund their life of drunken and drug abusing debauchery and supply someone for their beds whenever they wanted, male or female, any age. The other bunch mentioned above fits right in with that, and there were several others much like that back in the 60's, if you recall, mostly based on some screwball "eastern religion" someone made up.

These groups seldom survive the founder but, if one does, it can go legit and become a respectable and responsible organization. I advise against looking too closely at the early days of any religious organization, your own may not withstand close scrutiny.

I said "MAY" not, I did not say "WILL" not.

Someone noted above that the women and kids were not fenced in. Actually, they were, sort of. They were fenced in by what they believed they would find outside and by the fear of leaving the known. They saw no hope outside. Outside was filled with strange and fearsome people and beliefs, and horrible /something/ no one should want to know more about. The strongest chains are the least tangible.

Yup.

Little cult on the prairie! 

[bubba]

anyone with any brains knows one wife is more than enough.

[myronman3]

lol...sometimes too much.   

[Datil]

 Thats right, myronman3, I know Been there and done that.
 
 Marv/

[Cabin4]

anyone with any brains knows one wife is more than enough.

  I must not have any brains. Because I certainly would not mind more than one. there's always room for more!

Sounds okay to me.........................

[ncsurveyor]

Cabin4, to quote a very wise song-writer, "Trying to love two women, is like a ball and chain."

optionally, you can just take a hit from one.....

[torpedoman]

DNA testing cannot reveal age. As for under age this is a society thing we are the ones who have it wrong every other creature starts to procreate as soon as possible but we have threw up artificial rules for our self. Two generations back being married and having kids at 15 was quiet the norn. my great grandparents were 14 and 16 when they were married, I have a pic of them at their 70 year anniversary.This whole thing is a government interfering with a religion.

[rex6666]

from the very start of this, all i have heard is the gov. messed up, the state is wrong, some one is going to pay and that was because they went in. Like i said before, no one
can stand at a gate 1/2 mile away and know what is going on. I do know their was a lady from CPS on the news said their were 13-14 year old girls pregnant, but you don't want them to take time to find out who did it, SOME ONE NEEDS TO BE CHARGED AND QUICK. Lots of states let people marry at 16, that does not apply. Matt did you ever answer the question i ask you,
didn't think so. Evidently i have a better handle on it than some of you, Jimster he should be here he can just tell them to go away. NO, i am some what like the rest of you i don't have all the answers but many of you have one answer "the gov. messed up" and that is that, some of you would like it to be that way guess you get of seeing the gov. make mistakes how many of you
ever make a mistake, since you make many big decisions every day, and GOD help anyone that disagrees with you. I am at least willing to see what happens before i say the state is wrong.
Remember it is the state Of Texas so it won't mean thing to most of you, all you have to do is take care of your state. Many of you should run for office, since all that has to be done is what
you want and don't dare step on any toes.
wish i had a litter of pups out of some of you, not all just some,
Guess i will ask this agian do you really believe that two people 40-100years agreeing to get married is the same as a girl being raised for the purpose TODAY lots of things happen back then, that we don't do now
No Matt I am not special i will leave that to you and tm7 he even knows what the gov. is going to do next.
I will be the first apolozie if they find no wrong doing, It feels kinda good to stand for what you Believe, and not just follow.

[Mohawk]

Trust me from Texas........this whole thing has tied up the Executive, Judicial, and soon, I'm sure, the Legislative branch of the State. It will be at my agency soon and I hope it gets half way organized by then......

[Chilachuck]

Mohawk, that's the most incredibly optimistic thing I've read yet this year.

This looks like it's going to entertain for decades.

[DalesCarpentry]

I have said it before and I will say it again. I will not stand for the abuse of children. If what I think is going on there is going on there. Then I say take all the kids away and sort it out later. If it turns out it is nothing then return the kids. Only time will tell. I really just want the best for the kids. Dale

[rockbilly]

In addition to the fact they were abusing underage girls, there was also allegation's of incest.  DNA may be necessary to sort this out.

After reading some of the post here I can understand why America is in the shape she is.  Several folks have made reference to Constitutional Rights, friends, the U.S. Constitution does not give anyone authority to break the law in the name of religion or anything else.  In the state of Texas sex between and adult and a child under the age of 18 is against the law and considered statutory rape, even with the youngster's consent.  

My next door neighbor was a volunteer with her Church group to assist in housing and feeding the children while in San Angelo, she said the children were very polite, but afraid of everyone, most were very reluctant to talk or express any emotion.  The few that did talk, said they had some very bad experiences and didn't want to go back to the compound.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, the damage is done.  Judge Walther had granted the state custody of the children for 60 days, hopefully this can all be sorted out by then.

In my opinion the state did the right thing, it is better to seize custody of a thousands children and find you were wrong in doing so, than it is to fail to act and let one child continue to be abused.

[Mohawk]

  Actually the age of consent is 17 in Texas but the whole ordeal will be confusing for them. Those kids have been through a lot and it is time for them to heal.

[Matt]

Some of you amaze me, you think that you are above others and are able to pass judgment on them without any real facts or evidence. Not one single person here really has a clue as to what was going on inside the compound and yet you are acting as Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Let’s look at what we know and don’t know:
We know: Many of the men claim more than one woman as a wife.
We don’t know: If the other marriages are documented by the state or if only recognized by the church.
If the marriages are only recognized by the church then no law has been broken and thus no crime commented.

We know: some men have young wives.
We don’t know: the age of these wives, if any of these women under 18 are pregnant by an older man.
We don’t know: if the parents consented or arranged the marriages to the older men or if the age even requires it.
We know: some young girls are pregnant.
We don’t know: who the father is or his age.
We do know: that teenage pregnancy is not a new thing and that Texas is the LEADER in teen pregnancy as they have more than any other state. (Source: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/110507dnmetteenbirths.35daddb.html )
We don’t know: if these teens are like most of the rest of teens in the nation in their sexual curiosity.
We do know: that over 97% of teens say they do not use birth control.
We do know: these people don’t believe in birth control. (the more the merrier)
We do know: the state went in based solely on an unconfirmed telephone tip.
We do know: the state is forcing innocent (have not been found guilty of anything yet) people to submit to DNA testing.
We do know: the state removed over 400 children from their homes based on the possibility that some of them may have been abused.
We do know: that over 3 million reports are made each year for child abuse and that is thought to be only 1/3 of the actual cases of abuse. (Source http://www.childhelp.org/resources/learning-center/statistics  )
We do know: every ten seconds a report of child abuse is made in the US.
We don’t know: how many of the children removed were abused.
We don’t know: the ratio of Children/Abuse or how it compares to the national average.
We don’t know: what percent of the alleged abuse is sexual/mental/physical or who perpetrated it.
We do know: that these children have been torn from all that they know and from everyone they know and then placed with strangers.
We do know: that the Texas Foster Care System has been in trouble since 2007 and has had way too many children die in foster care. (Source: http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/05/07/7foster.html )
We do know: there has not been any report child deaths related to the compound.
We do know: that trauma to a child such as this whole ordeal has a 97% chance of causing these children to become: a alcoholic, a drug addict, abuser or other criminal.

So just from what I have listed I am sorry but a sane rational person should be willing to give these folks the benefit of doubt as to whether laws have been broken until such time as charges are filed. Also these folks today who knows who tomorrow…

Ok rex I will humor you with your questions:
did you force your wife to marry you?
No I did not but can you prove any of them did this or is this just your speculation or do you have super ESP and just know everything about everything…

was she locked up in a compound when you found her(picked her out)
Nope and do you have proof this was happening? And I did pick her out… there was 3 of them I had to choose from…

is [wiki=polygamy]polygamy [/wiki] still illegal in the U.S.?
Yes it is but can you prove that it has taken place? You do know the definition of it right… http://www.absalom.com/mormon/polygamy/faq.htm have a look here for some good info also.

You are not talking apples and apples
Really..? Other than religion how is it really any different that say Dallas or Houston? I would dare say that if you were to compare the abuse ratio of say Dallas and the compound you would be shocked.

But my main question is who the hell died and made any of you judge and jury?

As a side note let me make it clear that I personally think that any man who wants more than one wife should be allowed and vise versa if all parties are willing and I believe that he will get his just deserve when he is on his knees asking God "Why Me?". One is enough for me but I am getting older so... ya know...

And as to the age thing well I have mixed feelings as age is just a number for the most part but there are limits and maturity levels should dictate that with the oversight of the parents.

Matt

[SHOOTALL]

DNA may not tell age , but it the age of the mother is known and the child she gave birth to then the age of the child can be determined with in a range .
it appears that all want justice and the facts . Some are willing to speed up the process by taking the law into their own hands while others seem to be over cautious . Guess like always the right path is in the middle .

[williamlayton]

Matt
Let's review the rational thoughts you want folks too use.
This is not the first scrape this bunch has had with the law.
This bunch came too this area to escape the law that was hounding them around the other parts of the country.
Now these folks don't abide by anyone telling them how they can live their lives, approach religion, or set up households. That is good-----IF the ones being involved are of such stature that they can make good, sound judgments and are of such an age that they can know how too accept the consequences of their actions,,,towards the common laws that govern this nation.
The folks have prove, in the past, in other places, that they don't give a hang about laws OR what they do too the folks they are in charge of--if it satisfies their desires.
There is NO rational defense of them- their rights or what they do too children and families.
Sorry--your rhetoric is wrong.
Blessings

[rex6666]

Well Matt
It is common Knowledge that no one but the elders have ever been seen outside the compound. The only difference between my speculation is you say the gov. is at fault, i say say the ranch is
at fault, you are just like a politician you twist the questions and answers to fit your agenda, since that is partially to have as many wives as you wish i see how this disturbs you.
You hang in their you have a right to your beliefs as do I, maybe some day we will be talking about your compound. I think we all need to remember RELIGION comes from man, man
made, man ordained Their fore all RELIGIONS are what the people involved want it to be. I have judge the ranch and its people no more than the state and its people have been judged here. If we follow your do knows and don,t knows then we should all just not bother with the next child abuse call, don't even check it out. I hope none of any of the people here ever have a child to get angry
make phone call to CPS, if it happens you will be investigated for weeks if not months, even if the child says it was just because they were angry
I am amazed too Matt that  some have passed judgement on the sate of Texas without letting them investigate. As you (I hope can see) the state did not go in guns blazing but many say they
should not go in and investagate because it is a religious compound, their are many activities going on now under the guise of Religion, biggest and best hiding place in America.
Like i said if the state is wrong it is wrong and i will  apologize to anyone i have offended. I am sure all you great gov. and state haters will do the same.

[jimster]

State haters?  I always figured anyone who busted the constitution was enemies of the State...guess it's all how you look at it maybe.

And still after all this....nobody charged....but property was searched and seized...with a warrant with no affirmation. 

Can't really find anything in the previous posts stating nobody wanted to investigate anything. 

And Rex...yer right...maybe Texas is none of my business....I'll give you that...but the Bill of Rights kinda gnaws at you no matter what State your from. 
I always figured the State could get anything done they wanted and follow a few procedures while they did it,  maybe they figured a lot of people would over look
skipping a few things.  Beats me...maybe they were in a hurry all of the sudden, after letting it go for a long time...I don't know.

Butt I'll butt out of this one...what's done is done.  Maybe they will decide to charge all 400 people with something tomorrow.  Better late than never?

[Cabin4]

I often don't find myself agreeing with Matt on much, but on this one I do.

Until it is proven that their is abuse, no crime has been committed. On the point about marriage, what I have learned so far is that these plural marriages are not recognized or performed legally under the state. Therefor they are not real legal marriages and no law has been broken. Just because these people want to claim plural marriage does not mean that anyone of them has tried to deceive the state and manipulated the state or states systems to gain plural marriage. Example: Getting legally married in Texas and then getting legally married in Utah with a legal divorce in one of those states.

I've said this before, how these people live is none of anyone's business unless a law has been broken. Just because we may not agree with there life style is no reason to try and ruin their self determination.

I think the left wing media loves this stuff. It gives them the ability to go after people who believe in small government. the left wing loves big intrusive socialist government and these people are symbols of anti socialism.

[AtlLaw]

I have tried to keep silent about my opinions on this topic as I don't get involved in arguments unless I'm being paid.  But, (and day always be a but!)

When juries are being charged in a criminal matter, one of the preliminary charges the judge gives goes something like "In all cases, the defendant or the accused enters upon trial presumed to be innocent.  This presumption remains with each and every defendant put on trial, until and unless this presumption is overcome by evidence presented at the trial, sufficient to satisfy the minds of the jury trying the case of the defendant's guilt, beyond a reasonable doubt." (emphasis added)

From what I have read here, most have prejudged this case, not to mention the perpetrators (who have yet to be identified) of crimes (if any have been committed) that have yet to be charged.  It seems this has been done based on individual prejudices and information received form an impartial news media.  Conversely, it seems that all Matt is saying is "let's get all the facts before we jump to any conclusions."  A sound position and one required of all people who, in our legal system, presume to sit in judgment of another's acts.

Lastly, then I'll say no more, I don't know Texas Law, but, (again the but!) our Constitution guarantees us safety from unwarranted government intrusion.  An anonymous call is not sufficient to overcome that protection.  However, the state's interest in the welfare of it's citizens, including children, has led state legislatures to establish agencies that look out for that interest.  For example, the Dept. of Family and Children Services here in Georgia.  An anonymous call may be all that is required to involve them.  The agent's of those agencies generally have powers that allow immediate intervention in certain situations based on certain criteria.  Removing children from a dangerous - for want of a better term - environment is normally one of those powers.  This power, like any extreme power, is susceptible to abuse, and those who abuse such power can and should be held accountable for their actions.  However, we also don't know if that is the case in this instance.

So it seems that we have very little real information or hard facts about either side of the Texas coin.  Certainly not enough to take an aggressive position with each other on the matter.  More positively I think - if anybody cares what I think - that no one can condone child abuse or an oppressive government.

[Cabin4]

if anybody cares what I think - that no one can condone child abuse or an oppressive government.

Bulls eye!

[Matt]

Well hmmm what do you know:

David Fahrenthold in San Angelo, Texas
April 26, 2008

THE phone calls that triggered a mass raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas - in which a quavering girl's voice described being forcibly married at 15 - have been linked to a Colorado woman with a history of making false claims of sexual abuse, an affidavit filed in Colorado Springs says.

The affidavit says calls that allegedly came from "Sarah Barlow" - a teenager at the Yearning for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, Texas - actually came from numbers connected to Rozita Swinton, 33, of Colorado Springs. The affidavit also notes Swinton's possible involvement in a series of separate but similar reports in which the young caller described being abused by a pastor, an uncle or her father.

Texas authorities on Wednesday said they had not determined whether the calls about the Yearning for Zion Ranch were a hoax. They planned to press on with their investigation of possible sexual abuse there.

On Thursday they identified 25 more mothers under 18 among those removed from the ranch, raising to about 460 the number of minors at the heart of the huge inquiry into the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Authorities have been moving the children into foster homes as well as taking DNA samples to find out who is related to whom. About 260 remain in temporary shelter in a heavily guarded rodeo stadium in the western Texas town of San Angelo.

More than 60 women left the stadium on Thursday as the wrenching process of separating the women and children continued. Darrell Azar, a spokesman for the Department of Child Protective Services, said pulling the families apart as the probe widens was a "difficult thing … but these children must be protected".

One of the women who left the stadium held a sign outside the window of a bus that read: "SOS. MOTHERS SEPARATED. HELP."

"There are no words to describe how it was," said Velvet, a mother who was forced to leave her 13-month-old. She and other women who belong to the sect have refused to give their last names, fearing it will affect their custody cases, The Kansas City Star reported.

"We've been staying up nights to watch over the children because we didn't know what would happen," Velvet said.

Tom Vinger, a spokesman for the Department of Public Safety, said until Swinton had been charged over the phone calls her role was "still an open question".

But the revelations about phone calls to shelters for abused women in Colorado, Washington, Utah, Arizona and Florida cast doubt on the scenario that led Texas authorities to raid the compound on April 3.

The calls that triggered the Texas case started coming in to a family shelter in San Angelo, about 70 kilometres from Eldorado, on March 29. The caller said she was 16, and was bound in a "spiritual marriage" to an older, abusive man. She said she had given birth to one child and was pregnant with another. On Wednesday, officials at the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said the facts surrounding the first phone call had become irrelevant because the raid turned up independent evidence that underage girls had been impregnated.

The affidavit indicates links to Swinton even though she has no apparent connection to the Eldorado ranch.

One phone number used to call the San Angelo shelter is registered to a Courtney Swinton, with an address in Rozita Swinton's apartment complex.

The affidavit said that in previous years, Swinton had been linked to other tales of abuse.

Attempts to reach Swinton were unsuccessful.

The Washington Post, Reuters

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rex:
“you are just like a politician you twist the questions and answers to fit your agenda”
Dude you are about as ignorant as they come... I don’t twist anything I take it all in then make an intelligent decision as to which side I feel is right. You are the one twisting and saying what the state did was right when they had no right.

"since that is partially to have as many wives as you wish i see how this disturbs you."
Me no I don’t ever want more than one nor have I ever wanted more… But I do feel that it is not my decision to make that choice for others as you do.

"You hang in their you have a right to your beliefs as do I, maybe some day we will be talking about your compound."
Wow I have a right, you have a right, but those “Godless ones” don’t? hmmm perverted views if you ask me. And after all this I think we all better be building us a compound if we want to protect our rights.

"I think we all need to remember RELIGION comes from man, man
made, man ordained Their fore all RELIGIONS are what the people involved want it to be."
Duh… and your telling me this why? Hell I think religion is a joke but that don’t mean others don’t have the right to their own options and beliefs.

"I have judge the ranch and its people no more than the state and its people have been judged here."
 Hmm again twisted here… until such time as you are on a jury in this case judgment is premature. As to the state… that is our job as AMERICANS…. DUH…

"I am amazed too Matt that  some have passed judgement on the sate of Texas without letting them investigate."
That would be BECAUSE THEY BROKE THE LAWS THEY ARE HELD TO…. Not real bright are you… I do want them to investigate but there is a right way and a wrong way and thus for the wrong way seems to be the path they have chosen.

Matt

[Mohawk]

Through DNA testing, once completed it will tell a lot of things. If a 16 yr old girl has a 2 yr old child from a 40 yr old man then you have a clear cut incident of statutory rape and sexual assault of a child. The State is acting well within its legal rights. I think it is premature to add some of the above posted comments until the investigation is completed.

[SHOOTALL]

we do start to sound like CNN now don't we !

[Matt]

Through DNA testing, once completed it will tell a lot of things. If a 16 yr old girl has a 2 yr old child from a 40 yr old man then you have a clear cut incident of statutory rape and sexual assault of a child. The State is acting well within its legal rights. I think it is premature to add some of the above posted comments until the investigation is completed.

agreed with most just not the method used.

[rex6666]

Matt
now who is judging who, you started out judging the state and no you want to judge me and the state.
I thing you have attacked me by calling me ignorant and i know some on this forum can attack
any one they wish, so I am going to extend you an invitation to come to Ft. Worth Texas, i will pay for you
round trip ticket up on arrival, and we will settle this man to man, that is if you have the guts to do so,
I am 60 years old and some what over weight, so i will not tarry with you, it will be quick, you talk
big now lets see it. YOU CONTINUE TO ATTACK THE STATE, BUT DON'T IF IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG
JUST AGAINST YOU DUMBA$$. when may i expect you, so i can have the media there.
looks like the man that works for the state says the state is within its rights, Matt do you want to call him a lier or ignorant, or is it just me you have a problem with, i am giving you a way to settle it.