Author Topic: coal changes while reloading  (Read 734 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MOGLEY

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 192
coal changes while reloading
« on: April 22, 2008, 03:29:52 PM »
I am reloading for the 223 ( as well as 8 other calibers) and have run into a issue I have not an answer for. All my brass is cleaned, primer pocket uniformed and flash hole reamed. The brass is then trimmed to proper length. My question, Why when I set my bullet depth and crimp pressure, does my COAL change from case to case? Tonite WITHOUT changing the bullet seat adjustment, I was ranging from 2.26 to 2.24 to 2.265. I was absolutely anal about every case being the EXACT length to start with. I have reloaded hundreds of rounds and tonite things seem to go to he__. Even the crimp changed. I guess that could be the neck thickness variance. I am using mixed brass. If my neck turning stuff ever gets here from MIDWAY I will have that taken care of as well.  Any thoughts?
Stupid Hurts

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 04:42:06 PM »
Case length has absolutely nothing to do with your COAL.  It will affect your crimp though. 

The only thing that will change you COAL is how your bullet is centered in the die, because the seating die has a domed top.  If it isn't the die, it's the press.  I sometimes get variations in my lee turret due to the turret not being fixed... this is sometimes up to 7 or 8 thousandths.  So make sure that your die is set, your cartidge is centered the same in the shellholder, and the press is tight all around. 

A turret press that moves might also change the crimp some...  but I haven't had that problem with mine.  Make sure the pressure that you use to engage the crimp die is the same, changes in pressure could cause it to engage differently.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline torpedoman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2574
  • Gender: Male
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 04:49:46 PM »
sounds like the die isn't tight
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline MOGLEY

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 11:44:43 PM »
My die is tight as it has a locking nut. I have the lee turret press you mentioned. It seems tight but I will check it as it won't take much to cause my variance. I was about to take my die apart and really look it over.  am loading the midway psp bullets maybe there is some leading? I had that happen when reloading handgun cartridges. Thanks for the replies.
Stupid Hurts

Offline LaOtto222

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3828
  • Gender: Male
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2008, 12:54:37 AM »
When you measure COAL you should not measure from bullet tip to head. Measure from the bullet octave to head. It will give you a much closer reading. Bullets vary in length, especially in the tip area. The plastic tipped bullets offer the most consistent bullet lengths, but even those vary. Buy your self a gage the measures bullet octave to head distance. If you are really serious about COAL then this is they only way you will know for sure. Here is just 1 style. I have one that looks like a large nut with holes drilled in it for different size bullets. Good Luck and good shooting.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RESDTSD&item=SDC-0X&type=store
Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline jgalar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
  • Gender: Male
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2008, 02:07:15 AM »
I would say its the bullets as the above poster stated.

Offline wncchester

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3856
  • Gender: Male
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2008, 03:08:11 AM »
As mentioned previously, it's not the case length.   Also, it is not  critical that a die is wrench tightened in the press, only tight enough that it doesn't change during reloading and finger tight can assure that.  The radius of the bullet's ogives can vary a little bit, but not by some 25 thousandths.

It's much more likely it's your press linkage  is varying its springing a little under the varying seating pressure of using mixed brass.  Seating pressure is quite light anyway and there is, of course, a layer of oil in the toggle linkages and pins.  More of that lube will stay in place if the case necks are soft or thin, so the ram will raise higher and the resulting OAL will be slightly shorter.  On the other hand, when the case brass is harder, the seating pressure will be higher so more lube will be pressed out of the toggle links; meaning it's all compressed a little more.  The OAL in that case will tend to be slightly longer because the ram won't rise up quite as high.  It's all just the mechanics of presses.

And, as alluded to in a post above, the amount of spring is a little greater with turret presses.  That compounds the problem.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline KN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 12:54:16 PM »
I have found that crimp pressure variations like you are describing can easily cause the variations in length you are describing. As wncchester pointed out, most presses will flex to some degree and variations in pressure will cause variations in flex, and dimensions.   KN

Offline huntswithdogs

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 999
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 08:20:41 AM »
Pull out a handful of bullets and measure them. You'll probably find your length differences right there.

Not to step on any toes, but if you admit to be anal about your loading, why are you loading different brands of brass at the same time?  I'm kinda on the anal end with my loads. I was taught to load one brand at a time. Heck, if I check my scope, before hunting season, shooting Win brass, I wouldn't think about even considering hunting with Rem brass. Just an anal thing I reckon?


HWD

Offline KN

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1962
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2008, 12:38:10 PM »
I agree with huntswithdogs, mixing brass is a bad idea accuracy wise. I tested identical 223 loads from three different case stamps and found as much as 1-1/2" vertical difference between them at 100meters. Same groups but different POI. So mixing will undoubtedly cause group increases.   KN

Offline MOGLEY

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2008, 03:08:30 PM »
Case make is the one thing I have not paid attention too and your right I definitely should. One thing that happened since my post,, My new lyman accutrimmer arrived!! I have been using an old RCBS which I think does a fine job as long as I am consistent in tightening the case in. The new trimmer is great!  Using a shellholder and different tightening technique this is a lot easier in trimming case lengths. I also put on the outside neck turner attachment. WOW! I could not believe how uneven the necks can be on some (most) cases..... keep in mind my mixed brands, some are worse than others. Anyway I turned about 80 necks down and have noticed a huge difference in the crimping stage of loading. All of them have been consistent and not anymore of what I have described earlier.
In fact I loaded up some 223 loads for a NEF 223 and using these newly trimmed cases and shot my first honest to goodness 4 shot dime sized hole!! Not sure if it was the trimmer or the new load I was trying but it sure has boosted my confidence back again. To those of you that have neck turned I am sure this is not news but for those of you that have put off getting a neck trimmer i would be getting one.  I am going to work with this turned brass awhile to see how long it holds up.
Stupid Hurts

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: coal changes while reloading
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2008, 04:41:48 PM »
<snip>for those of you that have put off getting a neck trimmer i would be getting one.

Oh great!   :(  For years I have been telling myself that neck turning is a waste of time and fighting the urge to experiment with it!  Matter of fact I was looking at outside neck turners again in my new MidSouth catalog!  Now you come out with this!   :-[  Thanks!   NOT!!

BTW, mixing brass is not cool.   8)  As I said sometime or other, sort your brass by head stamp.  Close enough.  You don't gotta weigh and sort them into groups by weight, but I wouldn't mix head stamps when working up loads.  That's against the anal law.   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club