USS Constitution

[dobber]

Ive been looking for what type of guns were on the USS Constitution. The plan is to build a full scale version for my father.  The problem is i cant find plans for the guns. any help on plans or dimensions would be great.    thanks



dobber

[MikeR C]

Dobber,
If you go here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/constitution/drawings.htm

You will find a CD sold by the Navy for, I think $15, with a bunch of drawings, There are detailed, dimensioned, drawings of all the different type of barrels and their respective carriages.

Thx
MikeR C

[GGaskill]

I have this and it is definitely worth the $15.  The dimensions are all full scale.

[dan610324]

are you sure you want an 1:1 scale replica of an 24 or 32 pounder ??

that will be an huge gun .  how are you planning to have it manufactured ??

whats your calculated cost for that gun including carriage ??

its an extreme project

[cannonmn]

If you want to make someone a present they will I'm sure be happy with an "old cannon" design you could get from the CD.  However, one caution if you are a stickler for accuracy:  The drawings on the CD were I suspect made by draughtsmen and artists working for the WPA who were told to make drawings of old ship cannons, and were probably given no original source material to go on.  This resulted in many un-authentic full scale replica guns being manufactured and displayed on the ship for many years.  One particular example I'm familiar with was supposed to be a carronade, but the way the artist drew it, it had trunnnions.  However these were manufactured and displayed on the ship with signs saying they were carronades.  One of these was presented to the Naval Surface Warfare School at Newport R.I. where I went for a conference in about 1999, and examined it close-up.  I determined it was a creation of someone's imagination and had nothing to do with what was ever carried by USS CONSTITUTION.

I'd recommend to anyone interested in accurate info on USN M/L cannons, to buy Spencer C. Tucker's ARMING THE FLEET, U.S. Navy Ordnance in the Muzzle-Loading Era, U.S. Naval Institute, 1989.  It is full of profile drawings, primarily of the various models of barrels used.  There are a few drawings of guns on carriages, adapted from drawings in the National Archives.  Fig. 65 is "US Navy Long 32 pounder on its carriage, 1819."  Another is fig. 68, "The 32 Pounder of 32 CWT."  Between those two you have a long and a light 32 pounder, mounted.  You can figure the scale from dimensions of the tube given elsewhere.

[GGaskill]

Armament

Gun Deck Battery 24 Pdr Gun – American Type
22129 Navy Yard, Boston
1930  (September)

Gun Deck Battery 24 Pdr Gun – English Type
22128 Navy Yard, Boston
1930  (September)

Gun Carriages For 24 Pdr Guns – Gun Deck
22130 Navy Yard, Boston
1930  (October)

24 Pdr Gun – Bow Chaser (18 Pdr Gun Bored For 24 Pdr)
22361 Navy Yard, Boston
1931  (January)

Gun Carriages For 24 Pdr Bow Chasers – Spar Deck
22362 Navy Yard, Boston
1931  (January)

Spar Deck Battery 32 Pdr Carronade Gun
21250 Navy Yard, Boston
1930  (August)

1812 Era 32 Pounder Carronade Cannon
6184310  Naval Sea Systems Command
1985  (September)

32 Pounder Carronade Cannon Barrel  (Screw Jack & Pintle type)
6184378  Supervisor of Shipbuilding C&R, Boston
1985  (September)

Gun Carriages For 32 Pdr Carronades – Spar Deck
22364 Navy Yard, Boston
1931  (March)

Stowage For Ready Service Shot On Spar & Gun Decks
21749 Navy Yard, Boston
1930  (September)

Tampions For Guns
22336 Navy Yard, Boston
1930  (October)

Sponge Tubs For Sponging 24 & 32 Pdr. Guns
23401 Navy Yard, Boston
1931  (February)

Boarding Pike
4650113  Boston Naval Shipyard
1974  (December)

1797 Replica Boarding Ax
7444981 Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Detachment, Boston
2000 (October)

1797 Replica Cutlass
7444982Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Detachment, Boston
2000 (October)


Above is the Table of Contents for the Armament section of the USS Constitution CD-ROM.  As you can see, all the dates are before the rise of the Rooseveltian welfare bureaucracies or long after them.  It is my understanding that the drawings were made from actual artifacts found on board during the major overhaul that began in the late '20's.  However, I have yet to find the documentation for that statement.  Should I find it, I will post it.

[cannonmn]

Thanks for the additional info.  I'm going to ask a couple of high-powered naval historians I know if they've seen this CD and if they have any comment on the authenticity of the drawings in it, a quick way for me to get some authoritative opinion (mine isn't since I haven't seen the drawings themselves.)

If they don't know maybe I'll have to break down and buy one, and compare it to material I copied at the National Archives.

[dan610324]

its so nice to see that its still some people out there concerning about authenticity

[Cat Whisperer]

its so nice to see that its still some people out there concerning about authenticity

YES!  And in a very civilized discussion (not a potential p...ing contest).

That's the nature of this board that makes it different from many others.

[cannonmn]

Here's something I found on web:

Series VII.
Envelope #7 Guns and Gun Carriages, 1813-1814; (1927-1931)
Box 2, Folders 1-5
This series contains samples of cannon similar to the original guns found aboard USS Constitution. Among notes written by Adams are sketches of guns from several periods. These materials not only reveal the dimensions for the cannons, but also their location and the correct positioning of the gun crew. The references take two forms—written description and visual diagram

This is part of a collection of the Charles S. Adams papers.  CSA was the head draftsman involved in the ca. 1930 restoration. 

I think we have to be a bit wary of this wording since it is a bit ambiguous:

similar to the original guns found aboard USS Constitution.

The two meanings that could have, of course, are:

1.  Original cannons were actually found onboard CONSTITUTION and these drawings are similar to those items.

2.  The drawings are similar to what we think would have been found aboard USS CONSTITUTION.

I'm thinking meaning no. 2 is closer to the truth, since as far as I can tell, in 1930 (or any time during the 20th C. for that matter) there were no original naval cannon nor carriages aboard the ship.  That's because of the well-documented practice of "landing" the ship's battery when it went into an inactive status, such as "in ordinary" which I've seen many times in the National Archives "Record of Naval Guns." 

Also when a draftsman makes a drawing of an item, he doesn't put a note on it that it is "similar to" or it is not a drawing but a sketch.  A drawing is made by taking dimensions of the parts and reproducing them on paper to a given scale.

[dan610324]

yeah thats correct

when did they start using what we today call an drawing ??

all old drawings I have seen is just an proportional sketsch with measurements based on the caliber ,
most common was to use 16th parts on the north european drawings .
but they are from late 1600 to early 1800 .

you can find a lot of them at    www.arkeliet.net

[dobber]

thanks for all the help guys. I plan on building the gun myself on one of the 2 lathes in the garage next to the milling machine.

[HuecoDoc]

The USS Constitution was a major influence on my desire for a cannon.  I'd love to see one of their demonstrations.  They were renovating part of it's hull when I was there, and I bought several small pieces of the original hull for me and my brothers.  In plastic, those pieces have held the musty smell of the boat.

[Terry C.]

The plan is to build a full scale version for my father.

I admire your ambition, but I have to wonder...

How do you plan on boring and turning a gun that is roughly ten feet long and weighs nearly three tons?

[Gun Runner]

The 32 pounder was 9' 6" long weighed 6,160 lbs. This is from the book Patrick O'Brians Navy.

Gun Runner

[cannonmn]

The armament of the ship changed considerably over time, so you'd have your choice of a number of different weapons.  An easily-available source is Spencer Tucker's ARMING THE FLEET.  If you pick one of the standard USN weapons described in his book, a type we know CONSTITUTION would have carried, then seek accurate drawings of that pattern of gun and its proper carriage, that's my idea of getting something authentic.

Tucker's "Table 25" on pp. 149 shows how USN first-class frigates' armament changed over the years.

1841-4 ea. 8 in. shell guns, 28 ea. long 32's, 22 ea. 42 pdr. carronades

1845-8 ea. 8 in. shell guns, 30 ea. long 32's, 12 ea. light 32's

1853-10 ea. 8 in. shell guns, 24 ea. long 32's, 16 ea. light 32's

In table 20, Tucker describes "U.S. Navy Active Service Batteries at the Beginning of the War of 1812:"*


"USS CONSTITUTION in 1797"

54 to 56 guns: 

-30 long 24 pdrs. on main deck,

-2 long 24 pdr. bow chasers

-20 to 24 ea. 32 pounder carronades.

*Tucker cites nine different sources that seem to be in agreement on this information, so I have no doubt it is as accurate as we're ever going to get.

[Terry C.]

The 32 pounder was 9' 6" long weighed 6,160 lbs. This is from the book Patrick O'Brians Navy.

Gun Runner

Does that weight include the carriage?

I found a few weight listings for the 24- and 32-pounders and none of them were the same. Some included carriage, some didn't.

My quote of "nearly three tons" was for the 24-pounder tube, no carriage. Most of the weight estimates I found were for the 24-pounder. Wiithout carriage they averaged about 5800 lbs.


Regardless, it's going to be a BIG project!




HA! I just had a visual in my head, of the scene in "Jaws" where Quint and Hooper are estimating the size of the shark (that's trying to eat them).

- or, as Brody would say -

"You're gonna need a bigger lathe..."

[cannonmn]

Does that weight include the carriage?

I shoudn't speak out of turn here but gotta go do some "real work" soon, so gotta post it now.

The wt. of 6160 sounds to me like that of a typical USN ca. 1841-1860 long 32 pounder barrel only.  The carriages weighed about 1100 lbs., some models more some less, from some carriage weights I saw in Tucker's great book. 

If you can find that book buy it, don't wait, it was published in 1989 and won't be available forever.  You will thank me later.  I think I found mine on Amazon or one of the other online book sites, and only had to pay $35. or so, but I would have paid twice that if I had to.

ARMING THE FLEET, U.S. Navy Ordnance in the Muzzle-Loading Era, by Spencer Tucker, U.S. Naval Institute Press, 1989.

This is one of my "top few, must-have" ordnance book recommendations.

[Double D]

6 copies of Arming the fleet are available via www.abebooks.com  world wide inventory of used book sellers.

[cannonmn]

6 copies are available...

There must have been one with a lower price since now there are 5, priced between $95. and $150., maybe word of the quality of this book has gotten around and caused the price to go up, I don't know.

If anyone finds a cheaper source of them, pls post it here (after you buy yours of course!)  Mine's getting worn out and I thought I'd get another while I could, but I'd like to pay a bit less.



 

[Ex 49'er]

There are some copies at this address. The 2 cheapest are $81.12 and $95.00.
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?title=ARMING+THE+FLEET

[cannonmn]

Thanks for the info.  Interestingly those prices range from what you mentioned all the way to $266. and change, from some of the other sellers.

[cannonmn]

There are a few more starting at $85. at half.com, some of the offerings overlap with the other sites.

http://product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQprZ1193769QQcpidZ2495931

[GGaskill]

I emailed the Naval Historical Detachment for further info regarding the main battery of the USS Constitution over the years and was sent a list generated by a modern day commander of the ship (Tyrone Martin) that I am not at liberty to republish in its entirety.  However, one of the comments regarding the ship's armament was "Since its 1906-1907 restoration, the ship has carried only replica guns."  That would lead one to believe that the drawings made in the late '20's and early '30's, while perhaps reflecting what was on board at that time, do not necessarily reflect what was on board during any specific period in the ship's history.  So the drawings may accurately reflect what is now on board even though the current mix is not correct for any known period.

Note 4 at the end states "In the spring of 1988, the first two 32-pounder carronades cast by the Norfolk Navy Yard to the 1808 Columbia Iron Works pattern replaced two of the 1931 replicas on the quarterdeck, marking the beginning of a long-term project to replace all of the guns with replicas of proper design."  So the right stuff for some specific period may eventually be emplaced.

[cannonmn]

Thanks for the update.  I wonder why they'd be restrictive about publishing their list if it was correct, so some of this mystery could be cleared up?  Well that's up to them of course.

to the 1808 Columbia Iron Works pattern

I'm wondering what they mean by that exactly?  There aren't any drawings in the National Archives for Navy guns dated prior to 1826, according to Tucker.

Anyway, that gives me something specific to work on.  They are saying (as I read it) now they have an accurate 32 pounder carronade that was made to historically-accurate documentation of some kind.  I'm really interested where they got the "1808 Columbia Iron Works pattern" and would like to have drawings of it to check out. 

I have a feeling someone in the Navy sent me drawings ca. 1988 when I worked for the Navy, and I wondered about the same things back then, maybe I still have them somewhere.  They weren't original drawings though, they were drawings made by the shipyard that produced the replica ca. 1988.

The whole problem I have with this is that the question always goes back to "what primary source does that information come from" so if we can find out what they mean by "to the 1808 Columbia Iron Works pattern."

[Terry C.]

Just how big IS a 24-pounder iron gun?

I strapped the camera tripod to the bike's luggage rack and rode into town a little earlier today to help answer that question.

Here once again is our downtown cannon, the beautiful 24-pounder iron siege gun, model of 1845 (Tredegar Iron Works, 1851), located at the Confederate Veterans Memorial here in Waycross, GA.

A different model with simpler lines, but very similar in size and weight to the 24-pounder long naval gun.

I have included for scale another relic ... me!


Click on the photo for a larger image.
-------
EDIT:

Okay, so this really doesn't prove anything, but I never miss an opportunity to show off this beauty...

The gun, not me!