Starline brass

[filmokentucky]

 Is anyone using Starline brass to reload the .45-70? I've been told that it isn't possible to get more than 60 grains of FFg or cartridge grade B.P. into this brass--even using a drop tube.  Does anyone know if this is true? Thanks. Dan

[GregP42]

66gr to the top of the case of 2fg goex on the ones I have been doing, but then I have gotten it to compress to get the bullet in there too!

Greg

[filmokentucky]

  Are you using a drop tube? Which bullet are you using? I'm getting set up to load for my Springfield and I've been thinking about trying one of the pointed bullets like the 480 grain Schmittzer from TOW. I'm hoping to get close to 1200 f.p.s. but I think I'll need a full powder charge to do it as I only have a 26" barrel.

[GregP42]

I am using a 24" drop tube, as for the bullet, the one I am using right now is a 420gr paper patched bullet. I have used the 500gr pp bullet, 500gr Lee 2R bullet, and I have a mold that does a 500gr round nose that looks like a 458125 Lyman, but with a smaller nose diameter to be used in trapdoor rifles for rapid fire without cleaning between shots. I just got a new box of 45-70 a couple of weeks ago, I will see if the new ones hold more or less than the others.

Greg

[Ray Newman]

Starline brass is extremely hard brass & it will need annealing. Been there; done that.

I also suggest that you slug the Trapdoor bore to determine the proper bullet dia. By today's standards, the Trapdoor bore is often oversized. Again, been down that road before.

[McLernon]

What about Goex Cartridge powder?

Mc

[filmokentucky]

   That's good to know. Maybe I'll just go with Winchester brass then. The rifle is accurate with factory ammunition so the bore is probably on spec, but slugging it is still a good idea.
   The rifle was sporterized many years ago by a gunsmith or a very competent amateur.  The bore is mint and the breech block locks up tight. It doesn't seem to have seen much use either before or after being sporterized--something I plan to change once I get a good load worked up for it.

[kevinsmith5]

TOW sells Starline brass in its cartridge BP loading section. Is it not a good choice for that?

I'm mainly concerned because I now have a hundred of their brand new 45-70's sitting by my bench....was planning on them holding my first BP loads.

[whistlepig]

I get 69 grains of Goex Express 3FG in my Starline Brass and have plenty of room left to seat a 535 gr. Postell .400" deep in the case. 18" drop tube and use of a compression plug. LOA is 3.005" and gives a velocity of 1190 fps out of 30" barrel.

[kevinsmith5]

Just out of curiosity, what make of gun is that your shooting?  30" is a lenght I'm not used to.

[John Boy]

Dan, contrary to popular belief, I have compressed 73grs of FFFg into a Starline case.  My normal load for a 535gr bullet is 70gr FFg.  Starline is my brass of choice and it is good brass ... http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11848

[Lawful Larry]

I have been using Starline  brass for many years in my cowboy guns.  I have used both BP and smokeless with no problems.  As far as  going to all  thetrouble  to anneal these cases, that is up to you.  I don't  need to abuse myself with extra unnessary work.

And if you are getting 70 grs or more into you case, you must be a magician.   

[Graybeard]

I REALLY wish folks would stop putting out the info that this brass always needs to be annealed as it just ain't so. I've used plenty of it without annealing and it worked fine. At least one member here ruined his by incorrectly annealing after hearing this misinformation.

[Lead pot]

A lot of shooters swear by annealing and a lot swear after annealing.
I'm in agreement with GB on this. I shoot these black powder cartridge rifles most likely more then most shooters.
I use up by average 4 cases a year, usually more.
My compedetive shooting is pretty much over because I just cant see that fine line any more, but I still go to a few 1000 yard gong shoots and Buffalo shoots every year.
The only time any more that I anneal a case is when I take basic brass and form a neck, even with a slight neck forming say from a .45-70 case to a .40-65 .45 to .40 bottle neck cases this is the time to anneal a case.
I use Starline for the .45-90 and .50-90. The 400 cases I have for each have never been annealed since Starline have had them on the market.
Are they hard? yes, they are a little harder then the Rem, Win, but not as hard as Norma .45 basis brass is and I use that also with out annealing.
When I prep my brass for loading I just neck size and my expander ball is just large enough in diameter to put enough neck tension on the bullet to hold it, in my case .002, I can still spin the bullet with my fingers.
A lot of match shooters will anneal after every shot, and so did I because they did it, well after many comparisons I stopped because I could not see a spit difference in my groups down range on the paper.
I had more cases pull the necks and had to be trimmed after the second or third loading and we all know what that does to the brass side walls.
Anneal if you choose too but dont say that a certain brass needs to be annealed.
The wall thickness will still vary your extreme spread in velocity even if you anneal, your better off turning the case necks down then annealing the brass to get uniform bullet release.

LP

[GregP42]

Bill,

I think it is because Starline puts this on their own website about their 45-70 brass

"45-70 - Has been tested at elevated pressures suitable for Magnum Heavy Hunting Loads in adequate gun systems. When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads. Reason being case is produced very strong to withstand high pressure loads associated with smokeless hunting loads and since the only way to make brass harder is to work the material our only option is to leave them stiffer and the customers can anneal for specific application. See annealing procedure in commonly asked questions, section #4."

"4.) How can I soften case mouth to allow case to properly seal when using black powder in 45-70, 45-90, 45-2.6 (45-100) and 40-65?
    1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal.

    2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.)

    3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far."

But yes, some people take it way too far.

Greg

[Lead pot]

Greg.

I never see gas blow by or blow back "soot" on my case walls.
When a black powder cartridge goes off it detnates like an explosion the bullet along with the case fully obtrudes before it even starts to move forward down the barrel.
I can show you pictures of bullets that will show you this fact.
Brass will spring back some even if it is dead soft to a point.
The only way you might get gas blow back with these large capacity cases is maybe using what I call light squib loads with smokeless powder that has a slow progressive pressure peak build up.

LP.

[GregP42]

LP,

That info is right off the Starline website. I was saying that is probably why people say that it needs it. I have one rifle that I get blowback in, and one I don't, both are 45-70 and I normally have about .090" compression on the powder so it isn't a squib load.   Now I have had it quite a bit in my .41 mag using starline brass for some reason. I know it isn't a light load, 265gr hard cast with 21gr H-110, but it will smoke up the case every time, in both my Ruger and my Marlin.

Greg

Greg.

I never see gas blow by or blow back "soot" on my case walls.
When a black powder cartridge goes off it detnates like an explosion the bullet along with the case fully obtrudes before it even starts to move forward down the barrel.
I can show you pictures of bullets that will show you this fact.
Brass will spring back some even if it is dead soft to a point.
The only way you might get gas blow back with these large capacity cases is maybe using what I call light squib loads with smokeless powder that has a slow progressive pressure peak build up.

LP.

[Graybeard]

When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads.

Perhaps folks fail to actually read and understand what the above quote says. Perhaps folks just plain don't understand what it is they are doing and think they need to do something they really don't have to. Just recently a member wrote of ruining around 50 cases due to improper annealing of cases that almost without doubt didn't need it to begin with.