My new cannon

[HuecoDoc]

I knew better than to get a seamed steel lined cannon.  I did plenty of reading here and understand the concerns.  I thought I had verified this for my cannon, but now looking back through emails, etc., I am wrong and/or details were lost in translation.  It's no fault of the maker, and the cannon is beautifully made.  Even if I just use the barrel as a starting point for boring and sleeving, I am 90% there already.

It's a full-bore bronze US Mtn Howitzer and carriage.  I haven't found someone to help me heave the barrel onto the carriage, but I got it onto a small table from its crate by myself (with a stout A-frame ladder, a couple of pulleys, and 140 pounds of dumbbell counterweights).

Not until I got it out of the crate yesterday did I see the seam.  Like I said, that is my fault. I will fire it with care, and likely upgrade the liner.  I'm actually not close to firing it yet.  I need more accessories and literature first.  It is a nice piece of furniture for the time being.  It will not fit through any doors, so I will need to take it apart just to get it out!

[guardsgunner]

stand the barrel on its muzzle.
have wife or other like qualified person to steady the barrel.
remove the cap squares.
lift the stock until the straps are even with the trunnion
hook on
push down on the stock and the barrel magically lifts into position.
No heaving required.

[HuecoDoc]

Great tip.  It will require my pulley system just to get it back down from the table!  Once on the carriage, it will be easy to move around.  I will just fire cannonballs opposite my intended direction of travel.

[Cat Whisperer]

Beautiful!

What a great solution as well for door-to-door salesmen!

[KABAR2]

HuecoDoc,

You have a great looking cannon and carriage there! And a novel soft drink delivery system too

[cannonmn]

The maker had an interesting way of doing the cascabel, looks like he screwed on a separately-machined piece, but I can't see that area too well in the photos.  Is that how it was done? 

Not that it matters a lot with a sleeved gun, but I wonder what alloy they used for the basic gun casting or machining?

[dan610324]

ooohh thats an beauty , among all cw cannons the mountain howitzer is my absolute favorite . 
cant say why , but maybe because it looks like me     short and fat   

ok I ,know it aint polite to discuss money , but Im very curious to know what such an piece of art cost ??  who made it ??  how long time to wait from order to delivery ??

it would be nice to have an full size gun .

[HuecoDoc]

The cascabel is part of the casting as far as I can tell.  By alloy, do you mean something more specific than bronze?  There are four approx 3/4 inch steel bars that extend laterally from the breech, two on each side, and are polished flush with the surface.  It looks like those suspended the steel breech/barrel as the casting was done.  It is short and stout.  Like a bulldog.

It was made by Osvaldo Gatto in Argentina.

A friend helped me get it onto the carriage last night, so I'm going to do some polishing today.

[dan610324]

yes those steel bars are to center the steel tube during casting , exact the same way as they centered the core for the bore in early 1600 guns before they had equipment to drill an solid cast gun , hope you will post more pictures , I love this gun .

[cannonmn]

hope you will post more pictures , I love this gun .

Would like to see more pix of the breech area.

[HuecoDoc]

OK, more pics.  Let me know what you think or see.  It looks like the cascabel was added after the forging.  I failed to get a clear shot of the breech through the bore, is that what you wanted?  The steel rods on the side are only visible in the first picture, and tough to see there.  I don't know the specific alloy used.

The board software resizes pics.  It leaves them a little jagged.

[cannonmn]

Thanks, that shows the area a lot better.  I just couldn't see it well enough in the first pix, to see how it was arranged, exactly. 

Hopefully you will get some comments on the merits of seamless vs. seamed tubing.  Realize the seamless tubing is a requirement in some organizations, in relation to lining cast iron tubes, not bronze tubes like yours.  That's because cast iron can be brittle and can rupture suddenly.  Bronze doesn't fail in that manner unless put under extreme loads, like the small cannon that blew into a few pieces that I posted the other day.

What I'm saying is that for shooting normal, conservative howitzer loads using say FG or cannon-grade black powder, the rig you have may be entirely satisfactory.  I don't know exactly how thick the two metals are in your howitzer, what exact alloy he used (there are many different bronze alloys with varying percentages of various metals as components,) nor do I know how solid the casting is, etc., but since bronze doesn't normally fail in a manner hazardous to bystanders, if I have that howitzer, I'd probably shoot it and not worry much about it failing.  If you shoot that rig with let's say 9 or 10 lb. shells and normal howitzer powder charges, I'm guessing the carriage will break from the effects of recoil long before you have a problem with the barrel.

If this is the first howitzer that maker has ever made, then you don't have much to go on, but if he's made a lot of them and they are in use in his country, maybe you can learn more about how they hold up.

One thing you could do someday if you have access to industrial x-ray machinery is to x-ray the whole tube to see how solid the casting is.  This would probably be too expensive to do if you were just a normal walk-in customer, but sometimes you can get things done if you get the people who run the place interested in an "educational project."

[HuecoDoc]

Thanks for the insights.  I read here (maybe you?) about the handheld analyzers that can read alloys, and I may search around for that option.  I have read every post archived here that has the work "seamless," seven pages of search results I think.  I did find it odd that seamless steel liners are such a requirement that they could overshadow truly overbuilt cannons of any metal.  I guess they are required in all-steel cannons, too?

Osvaldo says he has exported to the US more than 1700 cannons, I think they are what Wild Imports mostly sells, I assume that includes various scale cannons.

I just took some measurements:
The powder chamber is about 6.5-7 cm diameter and 10 cm deep.  It's deepest aspect is 6.5 cm from the base of the cascabel.  The outside diameter of the barrel at the breech is roughly 16 cm, which would fail the design criteria of the N-SSA by a little more than 1.5 cm lateral wall thickness.  I measure the steel liner at 0.259 inches.  The shoulders of the breech area are not rounded.  I'm not sure I understand that criterion fully, it seems that square shoulders there would make wetting the entire surface with the sponge more difficult, but a full-caliber worm would miss the deepest part of the barrel.

He has included an iron powder measuring cup which he says to use.  It holds a volume of 5 ounces, which seems fairly conservative.

[Cat Whisperer]

If the liner isn't seamless it has a seam.  The seam is WELDED.  Where the weld occurs there are areas of porosity.  Where the porosity is the products of combustion will leach into the metal.  Where that happens corrosion occurs - albeit slowly over time - and one has a very weak area the length of the tube.  Then you have an 'accident' waiting to happen.

[cannonmn]

iron powder measuring cup

Make a nonsparking one out of brass or aluminum and give the iron one away.  It isn't a good idea to use ferrous metal for anything involved with measuring or loading powder outside the gun.

Cat, tx for explanation of liner seam hazards.

The same kind of explanation can go for any welds at the breech end of the liner.  I don't know how the maker fashioned the chamber end.  The best way to do it (according to a well-known m/l cannon expert I know) would have been a screw-in plug that was machined to interior chamber dimensions, but some makers might be tempted to weld on smaller diameter sections of tubing.  Each weld invites stuff to accumulate on the inner crevice, since you can't weld inside the tube, there will always be such a crevice.  Then you have corrosion over time as with the liner seam.

I still think if you had corrosion inside this gun which was enough to allow powder gas though to the bronze, the bronze, provided it is thick enough well-cast and solid at that point, would tend to hold up for a good while, then fail by cracking rather than shattering (like cast iron tends to do.)

Making a steel-lined howitzer with the usual howitzer chamber presents some technical challenges that the average cannon buyer might not think about.  I'm not sure what the cost difference would be, but if there was any way I could afford it, I'd buy a solid-cast, then bored-out bronze howitzer instead of a steel-lined one.

Anyway, now that you know the cannon is of the type supplied by Wild Imports, you can search the web to see if any particular problems have been reported with their products.

One additional thing you can do with this thing is to have borescope photos taken particularly of the chamber area, and have those looked at by some m/l cannon expert like James West of the NSSA.  People who do this do it with used medical equipment such as sigmoidoscopes or proctoscopes, whatever those painful instruments are called.  If the chamber interior shows gaps or sloppy fitting upon closeup inspection, you might just want to leave that piece in the living room for decoration.

[HuecoDoc]

Thanks for the more information.  To his credit, the measuring cup has really thick paint and no metal can be seen, but I will follow your advice.

It's so dry here (El Paso, TX) that static electricity is a year-round problem and I'm wary of having any powder in the house at all.

[dominick]

HuecoDoc, I'm not sure but I think Wild Imports liners may be stainless steel.  You can check it with a magnet. 

[Double D]

Having lived in El Paso myself I appreciate your concern for static electricity. I sure you have things like gasoline, acetone, paint thinner or finger nail polish around the house...all as a great sparking danger from static as BP, and truth be known probably even greater than BP.

By the way give your wife a big hug an kiss, she is far more tolerant than mine.

[HuecoDoc]

I played with isopropyl, etc., as a child, and that singed the hair off the back of my hands.  As a young adult I discovered that BP goes straight for the eyebrows!

The cannon liner is mildly magnetic, less than sheet metal, but I don't know what that means.  I'm getting antsy to fire it.  The Wild Imports site has been down the few days, at least for me.

For better or worse, I'm divorced.  I think the "better" part of that is having a cannon in the dining room.  My ex has seen it, though, and actually liked it.

[dan610324]

maybe you should try getting her back     Im sure its just one in an million who would tolerate such an thing   

ok Im also divorced and I must admit that there are benefits of being single 
but it also got a lot of disadvantages 

there are a lot of different stainless steel , some magnetic and some not .
but acid proof qualities are most often not magnetic

[cannonmn]

You can also do a corrosion test for stainless.   Just put a small wet rag in the bottom of the muzzle and re-wet it from time to time for a few days.  Any stainless I know of will not change appearance but non-stainless steels will show a bit of red iron oxide a.k.a. rust.

[cannonmn]

An objective magnetism test is hard to do unless you have a magnet with an eye or hook on it, or one you can put a string around and pull on the center of the magnet.  A control test has such a magnet and a couple of pieces of known ordinary steel (control samples) and your test sample (cannon barrel liner.)  The control and test samples have to "fit" the magnet exactly the same way so the contact area is the same.  All samples have to be fixed solidly to something, not held in hand.  Then you get some kind of small weights you make that will hang from the string.  The magnet is stuck on the sample inverted so string from magnet hangs down.  Add weights until magnet comes off.  Do same with at least two control samples.  Repeat it all 3 times, take average weight required to pull magnet off sample, and compare test sample to control samples.  You should probably check the procedure first to ensure you get agreement  between the two control samples, then go do it with the cannon liner.

[Gatto_Gunmaker]

Hello people,

I am the maker of this Mountain Howitzer.
I want to clarify their doubts.
We test every product before sending to the client.
This Mountain Howitzer is fully functional.
If the owner uses Black powder and a lighter ammunition NO that lead, never have problems.
The inner tube is used to generate uniform size only. Imagine that instead of STEEL SAE 1045. I put bronze in the same amount and you see that would be less resistant.
In the case of Mountain Howitzer I send a DVD instruction manual.
View to detail the video before using.
We test the internal tube before kicking around bronze, and operate  perfect with Black Powder and a wooden ball. Imagine the strength it has with all that bronze around !
The bell is part of the tube. It is not better placed after.

The mountain Howitzer have a chamber, the user must fill with Black powder that chamber and compress the powder Black with paper. Then rolled ammunition until the end. Ammunition must not forced.
The carriage should not be tied to the floor. It should roll backwards in the shooting.

The pipe measure is to calculate the fair amount of black powder.
The bronze alloy is 70/30 super tough !!

[dan610324]

hello Gatto

what you mean by 70/30 ??

is it the percentage of copper / tin  ??

[Gatto_Gunmaker]

Yes, it is.
Is first quality of bronze and the Steel is the same for antique swords SAE 1045.

Greetigs

[dan610324]

70/30 is an extremely hard alloy that easy get cracks in it,
its even to hard and fragile to be used in church bells .

best alloy in cannons is to have 8 - 12 % tin

what copper material do you use ??
virgin copper or scrap metal ??
if scrap , is it tubes or what ??

[Gatto_Gunmaker]

Dear Sir,
I have secrets that I can not disclose.
Due to automatic translation, my answer is unclear. Please sorry
I do not use tin on my bronze. I use Zinc
All materials super pure.
Please do not forget that the old cannons not use the steel tube inside.
My cannons use a safety plus.
In Europe my products pass the test bench without problems. (Eibar - Spain) and Germany.

Greetings

[cannonmn]

>I do not use tin on my bronze. I use Zinc

OK then what you have is brass, not bronze.

[HuecoDoc]

Osvaldo, thank you for visiting here and for answering those questions.  I hope you stay around here as your knowledge of weapon history will be a valuable asset.  The internet translation machines are good but problematic, and your Castilian dialect is different than my local Spanish.

[dan610324]

yes you are right , old cannons dont use steel pipes , steel is an very good reinforcement .
how thick walls is it in your steel reinforcement ??
what dimensions on your breach plug ??
how are the parts assembled ??
threaded or welded ??
is it any steel lining in the touch (went) hole ??

the cannons you are producing are extremely beautiful .
also the handguns are impressive , I have seen all your movies on you tube .
unfortunately all handguns need license here in sweden

please post links to your you tube movies here that all forum members can find them .