sick feeling

[myronman3]

i was talking with my wife the other day, and it seems we both have this sick feeling that we just cant shake.   it is the first time we talked about it and kind of funny that we are on the same page without having discussed it.    we both feel like there is bad times a coming.   
   what to do about it?  we are working like dogs to get rid of all our debt.  we are also trying to stock up on the things that become important when things get rough.   like food, water, booze, guns, and ammo.  i think most people have the guns part covered,  but fall very short on the other stuff.  i am included in that group.  i want to get 6 months worth of food, water, and a cache of booze built up.  why booze?  because when times get tough it is tough to come by and can be very useful for trading and such.   i suppose a fellow could add smokes to that list as well for the same reasons. 
   comments, ideas, suggestions?   whadda ya think, folks?

[Almtnman]

If you have the area for it, you might want to plant a garden. I have seen more garden spots being prepared this year than I have ever seen before. Food is going to be very high in price, so a garden will supplement your food supply. Also join a wholesale grocery chain like Sam's Club and buy in bulk and save a few dollars.

[ms]

That funny I had a old man come up to me today talking the same way. I didn't know him he said he thought the world was coming to end.

[Cabin4]

What are you worried about?

[AtlLaw]

What are you worried about?

Zombies!  Another outbreak is imminent I tell you!  Now who was it I was talking to about this a while back? 
The dude thought he knew everything about zombies... a real poser.  I refused to argue with him.  Anybody want to talk about polygamy?   

i'll let it stand for now, as i know it is in fun.  but stay on topic, please.   i am asking nicely. 

[Cabin4]

I want to know whats going on over in Birchwood Wisconsin that's got myronman3 hording food and ammunition. I spent alot of time in his neck of the woods and can't think of what could have him all sick about over there. Its beautiful country in the northwoods with great fishing and hunting..........

[AtlLaw]

Cabin fever?  An overdose of cheese?  Senility?  
Cummon man!  It's Wisconsin!  WHAT could be going on in Wisconsin!?     
Whatever it is, it sounds to me like he's got it covered.

[burntmuch]

That sick feeling comes from empty pockets. High gas prices high grocery prices. Im making more money than I ever have. & Im broke
The kids are fed, theres gas in the truck Thats about it. Hard times are here & their getting worse. I dont think its the end of the world
But I think the economy is gonna take a major crap in the next 6 to 8 mths. Just my thoughts. Or maybe its cabin fever.  Jay

[torpedoman]

the last time a major economy collapsed it was 1920's Germany and was due to the government printing money that had no backing so they had no limit on how much they could print and they kept printing it until the world realized that it was nothing but ink and paper with no real value except what the next guy thought it was worth. Do you know any government that is stupid enough to do that today? If you do do you think that the same thing might happen there. One of the first signs is the cost of imports goes up daily, prices of everything produced just keeps going up. If you happen to live in a country that this is happening in you should be making plans for a worst case scereino. A fellow i knew said "expect the worst, hope for the best, it will usually fall somewhere in the middle"

[myronman3]

That sick feeling comes from empty pockets. High gas prices high grocery prices. Im making more money than I ever have. & Im broke
The kids are fed, theres gas in the truck Thats about it. Hard times are here & their getting worse. I dont think its the end of the world
But I think the economy is gonna take a major crap in the next 6 to 8 mths. Just my thoughts. Or maybe its cabin fever.  Jay

exactly.  my scenario exactly.  and from where i am standing,  i dont see it the light at the end of the tunnel.   until fuel prices start coming down,  i will stay concerned.  everything is connected to and driven by that.  not only gasoline, but heating costs are killing me.  you guys dont even want to know what i paid this last year for propane to heat my house; and it isnt a big house and i didnt exactly have it warm.  i kept the thermostat set at "barely inhabitable" all winter and still got hammered.   and like jay said, i am making a good dime.  but that doesnt help when the cost of living has skyrocketed.  i really feel for those who arent making as much. 

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Ditch the gas heat and start cutting wood would be an easy way to cut down bills. Especially that gas bill.

Our electric bill runs a little over $100 a month and we run a welder, air compressor pops on 2 to 3 times a day, 4 computers, TV is always on. Electric stove.

House is heated with a real wood burning stove, Not that pellet crap.

We cut and haul the firewood from the back yard, started that going on 2 years now. Usually we buy a $15 permit and cut on National forest.

5 to 6 cords is what we cut and stack. Never hurts to have extra. Especially with this global cooling going on.

If you want to save on money, you have to trade off the modern conveniences  and go back to the old ways.

You can never depend on others supplying the stuff that you will/might need.

If you think you have enough ammo, Always buy more because it will never hurt!

Do you reload? that will save money

[AtlLaw]

Good thoughts.  Years ago I bought a little plot of land, subscribed to Mother Earth News and tried the return to the simpler life thing.  A horse, goats, chickens, rabbits, wood heater, cutting, splitting and stacking wood, laying in hay for the horse, alfalfa for the goats, taking care of the horse, milking the goats, feeding the chickens, killing the chickens, and don't forget the garden, 30 x 300 feet, tilling, planting, andonandonandon.  Actually it was really great, but I like my comfort and rest in my old age!

[Cabin4]

Myronman,

I agree with the wood burner. I consider investing in a modern outdoor wood burner. With the new tech those outdoor burners will burn for 12 hours or more with a load. It can provide all your domestic hot water as well. If you do the math it should make financial sense even if you have to get a short term loan to do it. If your using that much propane, a modern wood burner and added insulation will make a huge difference. A friend of mine who lives over in Mercer literally cut his propane consumption by 60% with a wood burner and added attic insulation. Another friend over in Clam Lake upgraded his indoor wood burners and its had a huge impact on his propane bill. Even the new modern indoor burners are superior to the old versions. You can directly regulate the burn rate with the flu & intake adjustments. Woods a bitch, but its what you do in the summer in your spare time, cut ,split and stock it up.

Just some thoughts that may help.

[myronman3]

i have seriously looking into wood.  an outside burner is the obvious answer,  although more expensive.  it would be a done deal, but my house is for sale and i dont know how much longer i will be in it.  hopefully not long, but you never know.  more or less a gamble now. 
  if my house design permitted it, i would just get a small free standing stove with the glass door.  my frineds have one and it heats their entire house.  but, that would be a bigger project.  the freestanding outdoor stove is the obivous answer, and with things being what they are,  i might just head down that path.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Ok I just hit myself on the head with a 10lb sledge hammer.

Take out a loan for an out door wood heater that needs electricity to run the fans to move that hot air into the house, am i correct so far?

How you going to move that heat when the power is shut down by a storm or what ever else can happen.

Seriously, a loan for a wood stove? Thats  the biggest joke i have ever heard!

I thought this topic was on saving money?

This home built stove will warm a 2000+ sq. ft. house.  You get it cranking to 300-400* and it will drive you out!

Normal temp. runs at 200* and provides heat for EASILY 12+ Hours.  Its still smoldering right now as a matter of fact.
My neighbor has one of those out door wood burners. I cant see paying $8000 for the one he has. After all, That means i have to run my butt outside in a snow storm and freeze my tail off so i can pack wood into it.
 Not to mention, Having to install the duct work.

[SHOOTALL]

water stove maybe ?
outdoor wood heater ?

[myronman3]

it is my understanding that the outdoor stoves run off of a water exchange system.  i am not sure whether that needs electricity to run or not.   the big advantage is the reduction in fire danger; but the disadvantages are as you stated.  my parents used wood heat and it was the cat's meow.   
  the part about the loan i agree 100%.   i dont like 'em.   but, at the rate i am burning gas,  it would pay for itself in 3 years.  yes, 3 years.   hopefully my house will sell and the next house i get will be of a design that permits wood heat. 

[Cabin4]

Another advantage of the outdoor burner is the burn & load time. You can load it up with more wood simply because its much bigger and it will burn much longer and more efficiently than an indoor unit. But of course they cost more.

[Almtnman]

Many moons ago I used to cut firewood and burn it to keep the house warm. As I got older, I found that was too expensive and the 3 lower back surgeries told me that was over. So now I heat with electric heat pump, it's a little cheaper than propane in my area, but still high. We don't keep it real hot and wear more clothes inside the house in winter. I do have an infrared 5 brick propane heater in the den to heat in case we lose power and it does a good job in emergencies, but propane has got kind of expensive around these parts.

So back to all my firewood cutting days, I had a full basement and bought a wood burner. Then I went to a sheet metal shop and had them build me a metal hood that fit the top of the heater and reduce it down to a 15 inch round opening. I then cut into the cold air return and hooked the metal hood into it. I positioned the heater under the hood. I used to work for a sheet metal shop and knew how to do that, so in case you don't know, you might want to get help if you do that part yourself. I then bought enough stainless triple wall stove pipe to run from the basement up through a bedroom closet through the attic and out through the roof. That was the expensive part as stainless triple wall stove pipe is not cheap. I installed it all myself making sure I got all the measurements right before making any cuts. Then I just fired the heater up and the heat drifted all through the house in the cold air return duct work. If it got too chilly in part of the house, I would turn the heat pump fan on and blow heat all over the house. Then if I didn't want to use the wood burner I would let it go out and close a damper in the 15 inch pipe section of my stove hood to isolate it altogether. I would imagine that if I hadn't had the duct work installed, the wood burner would have heated the basement area and the heat would have rose upward heating the floor anyway. It worked good and saved me a bundle in heating costs, then as I said at the start, all that came to an end.

I would still love to have one of those soapstone wood heaters sitting in my den, if I could figure out how to run the stove pipe for it and not mess the looks of my den up. 

I do have a sneaky feeling that times will get a lot rougher before they get better. We're coming into warm weather and people can grow some of their food then. But next winter with high fuel costs, food costs and other high costs, I personally think times won''t be as good for a lot of folks. Better get a stock in the pantry this summer while you can and make sure you can protect what you have as the ones that sit on their butts now will be looking for it when they think you've gone to town. It wouldn't hurt to have a good 8 shot 20 inch barrel pump shotgun loaded up with 00 sitting close by to keep the vermin away. 

[SHOOTALL]

i have been talking to water stove builders , might sell them . The several i have looked at have a stove to heat water that is pumped thru. a coil in your existing duct , base board or radiators . This requires an elec. pump . they have a domestic hot water conn. that uses water pressure to move Hot water to the point of use , if on a well sustem it is your well pump needing elec. So if power is lost you will need a generator to stay warm .

[DCRthe3rd]

I only know one person with an outside wood burner , in my town they are not allowed , but anyways he heats a big old farm house with it , it is large enough you could easily fit inside , his advantage is WHAT he burns in it . he does not cut and stack wood like most people do, when he burns wood it is in large pieces he rolls from a trailer backed up to it , he burns stumps ,pine trees, old lumber and alot of cut up railroad ties , old telephone poles , and yes even old tires , in the winter all of his garbage goes in there , along with anything else that aint nailed down. I'm sure some folks would get all over him about air pollution but in his case not another home can be seen from his house , now in normal day to day activities for most of us , dried wood would be the order of the day , but in a pinch if the so called shtf , itd be nice to burn up that stack of cheap old tires , etc but for everyday living that might not be practical or environmentally friendly

[corbanzo]

If you really want to save money and not work on wood, get an oil burner.  You can heat your house all year with used motor oil, and since people are still paying to get rid of it, you can get it for free. 

[DCRthe3rd]

If you really want to save money and not work on wood, get an oil burner.  You can heat your house all year with used motor oil, and since people are still paying to get rid of it, you can get it for free. 

Can you "or anyone else" give me an idea of the amount of oil they need to use with those oil burners?

[SHOOTALL]

some of the filling stations here have them , in cold weather they use gallons a day , every fuel puts off a given BTU oil is one of the higher , it is also why it cost more . used oil will heat but with the mess and transport involved and no large source at hand the cost might be more than you think .

[DCRthe3rd]

I was just curious at to how much they burned , an inspection station I take my oil to uses it for heat , they don't take it from everyone because the guy once said if there is anything else in it like radiator fluid, etc it will mess up the tip or burner something , they also crush old oil filters to get the oil out thats still in them and for recycling , I was surprised at the oil still in large truck oil filters , not large pick ups but large box trucks , etc , etc

[SHOOTALL]

I would guess depending on burner , from a .5 gal. to 2 gal. per hour of burn time . If the unit is sized correctly ( A BIG IF ) then it should have a half hour of burn time per hour . that would be at design balance point , as temp loss rises it would run longer as it decreases it would run less changing the consumption of oil . also it would depend on location . So to answer you ? is difficult to be exact !

[Almtnman]

I have been wondering if an oil burner would feasibly be the best due to maybe would the used oil always be available. I know that wood is a good source as it's renewable, but what happens when you couldn't get the oil? Once the places found out that it was being used for heating purposes, then they might want to start charging.

Remember back in the late fifties and early sixties, we went to an alternative fuel and started using it in trucks (diesel engines). It was cheap at about half the cost of gasoline due to the refinery of it. Truckers jumped on it and now all trucks are powered by diesel. Now look at where we're at, diesel prices are higher than gas prices and that alternative fuel is no longer an alternative. I buy off-road diesel for my tractor that has no federal or state tax on it and it costs me more than gas for my vehicles that is taxed by both federal and state. We used to use gas powered tractors, but the diesel change over has been a boon for somebody other than the user.

It's hard to beat wood for heating when it comes to getting a source that is there for the taking.

[SHOOTALL]

might want to review local codes also , they do smoke and it would be bad to spend $$$$$$$ and not be able to fire it up .

[Almtnman]

You can almost guarantee if the EPA finds out about it, it wouldn't burn long. I remember visiting my Grandpa back when I was a kid, he heated his house with coal all his life as did just about everything other Tom, Dick and Harry. They had coal heaters, coal stoker furnaces and it did a good job of keeping the house warm and toasty. We had coal boiler fired locomotives that were more powerful than these diesel electric trains we see today. We had and still do have coal powered power plants. The only reason the EPA hasn't shut them down is they can't come up with a better way to produce electricity without going nuclear and nobody wants a nuclear plant in their back yard, so we'll still use those coal fired power plants for a good while yet. We used coal to make steel and now have went to using electric furnaces to do that. We even used to extract benzene from coal and burn it in our cars as fuel. So what has happened to our country and why did we get so fuel dependent on foreign countries to furnish us fuel? We have a gold mine of coal reserves that would last probably 400 years sitting right underneath us and can't use it simply because of all those Al Gore types that set up an EPA and caused us to get in this situation. We sit back and let our guv'mint do it to us!

[SHOOTALL]

most local code say follow manf. instructions and most burners like we are talking about are for commerical application .