Author Topic: Big Pocket Navy Problem (Read 2544 times)

Echo4Lima · « **on:** April 29, 2008, 05:54:19 PM »

Finally picked up the Pocket Navy I've been wanting.

PROBLEM!! Took it apart to clean cosmolene off. Wouldn't go back together! The wedge would not pass thru the off side. It hung up about a
1/16" on the off side slot. I took out my Lyman nylon gun hammer and tapped it. Still wouldn't pass thru. Took apart, put back, same result. After about 8-10 times of this, all of the sudden its so sloppy the wedge WONT stay in. Took apart again, put back together, same problem wedge falls out, but now I have an 1/8" space between the frame and barrel where it connects to the pins.

What is up with this? What can I do? I talked to a gunsmith about fixing it but haven't yet told him the problem and, haven't had time to take it in . I would like to learn how to fix it myself but I don't know what happened.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2008, 02:02:12 PM »

Is the spring still attached to the wedge? If it is, is the end broken off?

StrawHat · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2008, 06:44:27 AM »

If you can post some photos of the revolver taken apart, you might get some more answers.

Hard to tell what's wrong from far away with out seeing something.

Cowpox · « **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2008, 01:49:39 PM »

Look at your base (cylinder) pin and see if it has pulled out of the frame. It's hard for me to imagine any other way to have 1/8 inch gap between the barrel and frame, with the wedge all the way in ?

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2008, 03:24:27 PM »

I'm thinking its the cylinder pin. How do I fix it? Nothing else is broken or outta place

Cowpox · « **Reply #5 on:** May 02, 2008, 11:49:19 PM »

There is an effective way of securing a base pin with silver solder, but this sounds like a new pistol. You paid for a working item, so there is no reason you shouldn't have one ?
Return to the dealer you bought it from, and exchange it for another. If you bought it on line, look in the manual for instructions on contacting the maker for warranty work, or exchange.
Just for fun, what brand is it ?

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

Uberti

No spring on wedge.

Loose 1/16 not 1/8

Got it from relative. Have to talk to him I guess

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2008, 07:25:42 PM »

What about pressing it in a vise?

I looked at diagrams but cant get it figured out from them.

Cowpox · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2008, 06:01:08 AM »

I don't have a Pocket Navy, but I do have it's counterpart, a Uberti Pocket Police. There is no spring on the wedge on mine, so it stands to reason there would not be one on yours.
Don't try pressing the base pin in. The only base pin problem I have had, was on an old Hawes, brass framed 1851 Sheriffs model.
The base pin in that one was threaded, so I would guess the pin in your steel framed Uberti is threaded too. The threads in the brass frame had been pulled out on my 1851, and an old gunsmith friend salvaged it (I still have and shoot it 25 years later) by cutting notches in the brass treads to allow solder in, and silver soldered it in place.
I doubt the threads in your steel frame pulled out, so try turning the base pin. If it turns, it may be as simple as turning it out a ways, putting a little thread locker (Lock Tight) on it, and turning it back in place ?

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2008, 08:45:12 AM »

I'll give it a try. Seems sensible enough.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2008, 05:14:30 AM »

I haven't done anything yet. I looked at the schematic at Ubertis site but cant tell if the pin is threaded or not by it. I'm hoping to get info from you all before doing anything. I did talk to a smith but I don't think he has dealt with cap and ball. He just said "bring it in and I'll take a look".

Does anybody know if the pin is threaded or pressed in? In the schematic it shows a set pin also.

Cowpox · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2008, 08:30:51 AM »

You are sure right about not being able to tell by schematics, whether there are threads or not. I looked at diagrams on a dozen sites, and they all seem to have the same 3x3 inch drawing, with no apparent way to zoom.
If it is threaded, and turned while you were taking it apart (turning slightly so it was out of line with the mortise in the barrel would explain not being able to get the wedge back in), I would expect it would turn easily. Just try sliping a screw driver through the slot for the wedge, and gently try turning it. Easy does it, you don't want to warp the sides on the mortise, just enough pressure it see if it will turn.
Otherwise, you might be better off taking it to a smith. He may have a book of exploded drawings and disasembly instructions, that will include one for your pocket navy.
Or, go back to the Uberti site, and look for a link or phone number that will get you in touch with them, so you can see what they recommend.
By the way, I can see no trace of that "cylinder lock pin" shown in the schematics, on my pocket police ?

StrawHat · « **Reply #12 on:** May 14, 2008, 11:14:09 AM »

I tore down my Pocket clones to take some measurements and some photos.

No wedge spring on any of the three revolvers I own, they are all Ubertis from different times.

I can not imagine the cylinder arbor is threaded. It would require to much precision to get the slot to line up with the wedge slot in the barrel and allow the wedge to go in. Although that may be way the slot is so much wider than the wedge.

Okay, in the photo there are two numbers with each revolver.

The larger of the two is from the barrel end of the slot to the recoil shield.

The smaller of the two is from the cylinder end of the slot to the recoil shield.

Not sure what it may indicate but if yours is significantly different you have a problem.

For those of you to whom my scribbling is illegible;

Top revolver 2.428 1.885

Middle revolver 2.442 1.872

Bottom revolver 2.421 1.875

Again, not sure if this will help.

on some revolvers the wedge retaining screw needs to be backed out or removed before the wedge can be inserted.

Have you tried that?

Keep in touch and post a photo if you can.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2008, 03:11:22 AM »

The problem is the barrel wedge wont stay in and the barrel assembly is loose and rattling. There is now about 1/32 or so of "slack" in there.

If you look at the Uberti schematic, it shows a retaining pin of some sort above the cylinder pin. I haven't figured that out.

I wonder why there isn't a spring on the wedge like the larger framed pistols.

I'll use your measurements and see what I come up with. Thanks to all of you for your input and help...

StrawHat · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2008, 05:05:19 AM »

On some of my 1860s there is a retaining pin for the cylinder arbor. And I just looked and found said pin on my Pocket Police clone.

On mine they are in the frame where the inside curve of the hammer would touch and go down toward the trigger.

That won't help hold the wedge in though. Sounds like the wedge has worn itself too small. I have replaced wedges, not a big job just annoying.

Good luck.

Flint · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2008, 06:35:32 PM »

The cylinder arbor is indeed threaded into the frame. It is a 5/16-18 thread on the Uberti Navy and Army, most likely smaller on the Pocket pistol frame. (Original Colts were 3/8-20) The retaining pin is driven into a hole drilled on the junction of the frame and arbor to prevent rotation of the arbor. It must be drilled out to remove the arbor with an .090 drill or no larger than the tap drill for a #6 set screw. , To replace the locking pin, tap the hole after eassembly for a 6-32 set screw, which makes any later disassembly much easier.

If the arbor does not hold tight without wobble in the seated position (Wedge slot horizontal) you may have to gently "stretch" the rear step just ahead of the threads with a small machinist's hammer, tapping around the edge to make it fit tighter against the frame, as the hand passes too close to use a shim washer.

Normally degrasing and blue locktite will hold the cylinder arbor from wiggling. I assemble the barrel and wedge while the locktite dries so the arbor is aligned with the other parts.

StrawHat · « **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2008, 01:12:20 AM »

Quote from: Flint on May 15, 2008, 06:35:32 PM

The cylinder arbor is indeed threaded into the frame. It is a 5/16-18 thread on the Uberti Navy and Army, most likely smaller on the Pocket pistol frame. (Original Colts were 3/8-20) The retaining pin is driven into a hole drilled on the junction of the frame and arbor to prevent rotation of the arbor. It must be drilled out to remove the arbor with an .090 drill or no larger than the tap drill for a #6 set screw. , To replace the locking pin, tap the hole after eassembly for a 6-32 set screw, which makes any later disassembly much easier.

If the arbor does not hold tight without wobble in the seated position (Wedge slot horizontal) you may have to gently "stretch" the rear step just ahead of the threads with a small machinist's hammer, tapping around the edge to make it fit tighter against the frame, as the hand passes too close to use a shim washer.

Normally degrasing and blue locktite will hold the cylinder arbor from wiggling. I assemble the barrel and wedge while the locktite dries so the arbor is aligned with the other parts.

Flint,

Thanks for the info, never had to pull one down that far, yet.

Replacing the retaining pin with a hex screw is a capital idea!

Thanks for the input.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #17 on:** May 16, 2008, 12:00:27 PM »

Flint, You have probably once again GREATLY helped me!!

Thanks to you also Strawhat!!

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #18 on:** May 17, 2008, 08:07:28 AM »

Took pistol completely apart this A.M. Put screwdriver in wedge slot, gripped frame and torqued. Wedge went in with resistance, as it should, and barrel assembly, frame strongly held together. No slop or anything. Quite happy! Cleaned/oiled all parts put back together. Worked action repeatedly then........SLOP!! Wedge etal back to same problem! D*#n thought I had it.

It does look like the retaining pin is not flush with the frame at the place Flint described. I'll keep working on it.

Suggestions?

StrawHat · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2008, 03:17:46 AM »

Quote from: Echo4Lima on May 17, 2008, 08:07:28 AM

It does look like the retaining pin is not flush with the frame at the place Flint described. I'll keep working on it.

Suggestions?

Drift pin and an 8 ounce hammer.

Get the arbor where it needs to be and then set the retaining pin.

Glad to hear things are working out.

lrrice · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2008, 07:24:24 PM »

Try flipping your wedge upside down and put it in. If it stays tight, then your wedge is beat down in the center it feels tight till you get it in, then gets terribly sloppy. Sometimes to the point that it misfires because the cylinder moves away from the impact of the hammer. A lot of wedges are made of really soft metal, I assume so they wear out instead of the cylinder pin slot. You can replace it with a new one and it should last a few more shots, that's why my Colts spend most of their time in the safe while my Remington gets to go out and play.

m-g Willy · « **Reply #21 on:** May 29, 2008, 02:15:25 PM »

I think Flint ment to drill retainer pin out, then remove arbor to tap around rear edge increasing the length a bit.
It worked for me on a 1860 ASM .

Willy

His lordship. · « **Reply #22 on:** June 01, 2008, 06:56:28 AM »

I had a similar problem with a new Uberti 1851 Colt. Before damaging the pin and wedge, I would use a rubber hammer to lightly tap down the wedge into the frame, it would not go in at this point, then tap the top sidewise toward me, to wedge it into the gun, once aligned, a light tap would put it all the way in. I think the tolerences are much too tight from the factory, I have encountered some weird stuff on the Italian replica Colts before, so when I put the gun back together for the first time I expect the possibility of a puzzle to figure it out.

As a retired auto mechanic, I am used to odd and very frustrating assembly methods.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #23 on:** June 19, 2008, 05:09:50 PM »

My computers been down for awhile so been unable to get back to this.

Took the pistol in to a gunsmith locally. He didnt really have any knowledge ans didnt seem to want to try working with it. He did give me a referal to a Cowboy Action gunsmith. I'm gonna see about some work on my 1894 .32-20, at that time I'll see what, if anything, he can do. My next thing will be to attempt Flints remedy.

Somebody told be to try to brass weld the slot, file to fit. Ya think?

Smokin_Gun · « **Reply #24 on:** July 04, 2008, 09:46:38 PM »

Echo4Lima ,
Real simple, order yourself anonther wedge for your Uberti 1862. You stated the problem when you hit it into the Barrel and arbor. The wedge is made softer so as you don't damage the arbor or barrel which is case hardened. By beating the wedge into the arbor you probly deformed it. Has it got shiney spots or waves on the front side of the wedge? A wedge is not suppose to go all the way thru, unless very worn...should go flush or a little more thru to the right side of barrel as you would view holding it as you were aiming.
For now shimthe front of the wedge with a brass strip, or a Beer can shim and shoot it till the new wedge come...I don't believe it's hurt by the sounds of it.

SG

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #25 on:** July 09, 2008, 06:16:49 PM »

The wedge does have a "shiny spot" on the front edge of it. I was also thinking of ordering a full size 1851 wedge and fitting it. I think it can be done by doing all thje adjusting thru the wedge itself. I havent had much time to deal with it for awhile as I have been busy with "nickle & dime" work. Looks like I may have some time in the next few weeks to try to try to solve this problem.

At the risk of sounding paranoid, I've been trying to call Thunderridge to order nipples for both my pistols. I'm leary of ordering on line.

Smokin_Gun · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2008, 07:39:38 PM »

Echo4Lima, They are back at Thunder Ridge were away for a few weeks and Cowboy events. Just got my order via inet debit card.

The shim works, the wedge was in too far when you fired it. Watch you cylinder gap to forcing cone when you put the shimmed wedge in about .006" is real good between front of Cylinder and the rear of barrel.

Take care,
SG

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2008, 06:08:13 PM »

So shim it between the barrel and cylinder? I was trying to figure out how to shim the wedge in the slot. I'll give this a try. Sounds like an idea anyway.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2008, 06:10:00 PM »

Between the barrel and cylinder or the barrel and frame? I am gonna try another wedge still though. The shim idea will allow me to shoot it anyway.

Thanks...