Blackhorn 209 smokeless or not?

[hogrdr]

Since there was some debate on another thread I e-mailed western powder this question!

This is the way regulations are written for Utah Muzzleloader deer hunt will Blackhorn 209 pass these regulations?
(it must be loaded with black powder or a • black powder substitute. The black powder or black power substitute cannot contain nitrocellulose-based smokeless powder.)

There response

Thank you for your business!  We appreciate your support and glad to hear that you like the product.
 
Regarding your question.
 
Blackhorn 209 was specifically designed as a muzzleloading propellant for modern style in-line muzzleloading rifles.

1) Blackhorn can be loaded on a volumetric equivalent to Black Powder. This can not be done with smokeless powders.
2) Blackhorn 209 is classified by the US DOT / UN Propellant, solid, UN0499 same as T7, Pyrodex, APP, JSG, and GOEX Pinnacle.  All other NC based propellants are classified as: Powder, Smokeless, UN 0161
3) Blackhorn 209 composition contains Potassium Nitrate, Charcoal, and  Sulfur. Key ingredients in any black powder or substitute.  Smokeless powder may contain small amounts of Potassium Nitrate but none of the other ingredients.
 

[Semisane]

Based on their carefully worded and convoluted "non answer" to your very specific question, I must assume it does indeed "contain nitrocellulose-based smokeless powder".

[Keith Lewis]

I think if you really read the description of the powder it may be saying (or dancing around and avoiding saying) that it is a black powder composition (the three ingredients listed are exactly that) leaving the possibility that it may contain some nitrocellulose based NON-SMOKELESS powder. Since it has a classification number different from Smokeless it would not be classified as smokeless powder so even if it contains Nitrocellulose based ingredients it still falls outside the classification of Nitrocellulose-SMOKELESS powder. I think it could still be considered legal although the final decision will lay with the states to rule on it if it becomes a question. I do agree that the answer is very safely worded to avoid making a solid statement and they obviously do not want to give away much of the actual composition just to protect their product. The rules don't say it cannot contain Nitrocellulose components it says Nitrocellulose "SMOKELESS POWDER".

[simonkenton]

They certainly did a good job of not answering your question, as to whether it contains nitrocellulose.

[oneshotonekill]

That is a pretty interesting answer.  For one DOT classification tells you nothing about the powder, only its transportation requirements.  Secondly their own answer states "all other NC based" this leads me to believe their product is in fact NC based but classified differently than other NC based propellents.

[Keith Lewis]

As I stated. The powder may not be NC based but may contain some NC compounds. I suspect they have found a way to get the powder to function similar to duplex loads. There is enough of the black powder compounds to function like black powder and be volume loaded and qualify as non-smokeless but contains enough NC based compounds to clean up the burning process just like duplex loads do. I have seen duplex smokeless loads that do the same thing. Small amounts of fast pistol powder under slow burning smokeless will clean up the burning and works sort of like a magnum-magnum primer. Not recommending duplexing smokeless; just stating that I have seen it done. Powder companies do not recommend it either. I still believe that the powder does not contain any nitrocellulose SMOKELESS POWDER but may contain some nitrocellulose compounds. There is a specific difference in how you classify the two. Obviously we are all just guessing here but this is my guess.

[Busta]

Not smokeless.

[sabotloader]

Smokeless powder carries a very distinctive aroma when you open a bottle.  Someone with both powders take a sniff from both, I am thinking they will be very simular, I am betting the BH-209 will have that same tell-tell aroma.

[frogee]

I think whoever wrote that response should be running for president.

[Keith Lewis]

The smell is the same as Nitroglycerin and I have had some dealings with that product (very sweet smell). You are right that there is some of that when the bottle is opened. Again nobody said it does not contain Nitrocellulose compounds. That alone does not make it Smokeless Powder.

[Busta]

My biggest concern was after shooting it, I could smell a hint of sulfur in the barrel. I thought all sulfur was corrosive? Maybe not?

I think the coating on the powder could be some of what you guys are smelling, I smell accuracy and fast clean up.

[Keith Lewis]

My biggest concern was after shooting it, I could smell a hint of sulfur in the barrel. I thought all sulfur was corrosive? Maybe not?

I think the coating on the powder could be some of what you guys are smelling, I smell accuracy and fast clean up.

I think it is the salts that are left after sulfur, charcoal and saltpeter are burned. According to Western this powder contains all three of those. Whatever else is in it is what apparently burns up everything with the result not being a corrosive salt. Again this is just my guess, although I do know a little about chemistry (notice I said "a little"). I am pretty convinced that the smell is difinately nitro based.

[sabotloader]

Keith Lewis

I totally agree on the nitro... but you also have to remember T7 is considered to be smokeless also. and it is without suphur... and has no Nitro in at all, so governing bodies were able to accept it as a non-nitro smokeless.  This then allowed it to be called BP sub.  Sulphur (salts) is the primary agent in casuing havock with a barrel especially pitting.  While T7 has no sulphur and is not near as corrosive as BP or any of the Pyro's - It can in general rust the barrel if the residue is left in the barrel, over an extended period especially in a humid climate, as the residue is moisture wicking.

I believe BH-209 MIGHT fall in this grey area because it compunds do not qualify it as a full blown Nitro-based Smokeless.  If the states that have the rule of "No Nitro" choose to enforce that rule - possibly BH-209 might be out the window.  I think as conservative as Idaho, Washington, and Oregon are it will not be allowed - course in Idaho you can not use 209 ignition anyway.

[Keith Lewis]

I would guess it is going to come down to each state making the decision. Arizona states in the regulations that what is legal is Black Powder or Synthetic Black Powder. That pretty much leaves the door open. Not a big deal for me this year since I did not get drawn again. Two years in a row. I guess I did not know that T7 was considered smokeless. I have heard some refer to it as possibly smokeless with something added to make it smoke. BH209 on the other hand contains all the ingredients of black powder so it is really black powder with some other additives. Sounds like to me it is even more like black powder than T7 is.  Whether any states specifically outlaw powder with any compound of Nitrocellulose in content will have to be determined state by state.