38 S&W / .380 RIMMED

[WILD_WEASEL]

     While prowling my favorite message boards I came across a fellow selling surplus .380 Mk 2z (38 S&W) ammo manufactured in India for the Enfield No.2 Mk1** revolver.  Since I’ve not seen surplus .380 in over 10 years I jumped at buying x4 boxes (12 rounds per box) @ $10 a box.  This is 178gr FMJ traveling at a whopping 700fps, Corbon step aside, lol.  This prompted me to get my Enfield out of the backof the gun safe and take it to the range.  At 15 yrds this ammo hits about 4” low and grouped into 2”, not bad.  The original Mk 1 round for this revolver used a 200gr LRN bullet traveling at 600fps, Buffalo Bore stand aside…
     Some time ago I came across some 190gr cast LRN bullets (sized to .359) intended for the 35 Remington.  With 2.4gr of Unique these hit point of aim at 15 yrds, coming close to the original loading of 600fps.  Telling me my revolver never had the sights re-regulated for the lighter faster round.  Remington and Winchester factory 38 S&W ammo features a 145gr LRN bullet at 700fps, which hits at the same point as the Mk 2 ammo.
     At this point a note on brass is important, Winchester and Starline brass is made specific to the 38 S&W and will only chamber in revolvers manufactured for the 38 S&W, while Remington 38 S&W brass/ammo will actually chamber in a revolver designed for the 38 Special (slightly smaller case diameter).  The Winchester brass is noticeably thicker than the Star brass, causing a slight bulge if seating bullets too deep, while the Starline brass, with less internal taper, does not manifest this problem.
     Since I’m out of 190gr bullets (should have bought more when I had the chance) my current plinking reload is 3 gr of Unique under a 158gr LRN @ ≈680fps in a Starline 38 S&W case, (the Winchesters cases are OK too if you don’t mind the small bulge).  These too shoot about 4” low at 15yrds.  Given these bullets are sized to .358” not the recommended .361” for the 38 S&W they still group well.
     I may go dig around the machine shop at work to see if I can find a piece of aluminum stock that I can fashion a lower front sight from to bring up the Point of Impact (POI).  But at the end of the day is always satisfying to take out an Old War Horse and put it through its paces.

[Mikey]

Wild_Weasel:  You said: "At this point a note on brass is important, Winchester and Starline brass is made specific to the 38 S&W and will only chamber in revolvers manufactured for the 38 S&W, while Remington 38 S&W brass/ammo will actually chamber in a revolver designed for the 38 Special (slightly smaller case diameter).  The Winchester brass is noticeably thicker than the Star brass, causing a slight bulge if seating bullets too deep, while the Starline brass, with less internal taper, does not manifest this problem".

Are you saying the Winchester and Starline brass will not chamber in the 380 Webley??  Rather than modifying the revolver front sight, can you obtain dies for the 380 (if different from the 38 S&W) and size the brass to fit the 380 chambers?? Anything on the 38-200 that would help?

I had previously thought a charge of 3.2 gn of Unique under the 200 gn 38 S&W/380 slug duplicated the 600'/sec loading of mil-spec velocity?  Your 3 gn load under a 158 gn slug is very mild - even the mil-spec loads are very mild for that matter. 

You got me laughing a bit with your statements "Corbon and Buffalo Bore, stand aside" knowing their loadings and the original mil-spec loads for the 38-200 are at the opposite ends of the velocity spectrum but that older round has history, experience and battlefield experience the others do not. 

Folks laugh at the 'anemic' loadings of the old 38-200, completely forgetting it shoots through the other guy at 25 yds.  Not too shabby of the old and slow group..................

[WILD_WEASEL]

Mikey,

Allow me to clarify myself.  Factory loaded Remington and Winchester 38 S&W have different case diameters.  Remington 38 S&W has the same case diameter as the 38 Special and will chamber in one.  However, Winchester 38 S&W has a greater case diameter and will only chamber in a 38 S&W, not a 38 Special.

When it comes to reloading my preferred brass is Starline for two reasons.  1)  Starline brass has the correct case diameter specified for 38 S&W and will only chamber in said gun when properly sized.  2)  Starline brass has less internal taper allowing me to seat and crimp 158gr Lead Round Nose Flat Points (LRNFP), yes an oxymoron but that is how they are labeled on the box, without causing a bulge in the case near the bullet’s seated base. 

I get a lot of looks at the range when I pull out my old break top revolver.  While it is obvious that it shoots 3” or 4” low when shooting at a bull’s eye, the results look entirely satisfactory on a standard silhouette at 15 yards.

One of the things I love about British small arms is that they are covered with marks.  With the proper references they can tell you their history!  My Enfield No.2 Mk1** for example I know was manufactured at the Royal Small Arms Factory (Enfield) in 1944 then Factory Thorough Repaired (FTR) in 1952.  Then prior to being sold as surplus was stamped with a commercial nitro proof mark, a cool looking mark of am arm holding a sword.

At some point I need to start casting my own bullets.  200gr LRN bullets correct for the 38/200 Super Police / .380 Mk1 are few and far between.

[Mikey]

WILD WEASEL: Somebody out there has to cast or sell bullets in that diameter. The diameter is .360, yes???  I saw that you used a .359 diameter slug but I always thought the 38-200 to be a .361 diameter.  Would any of the cast slugs available for the 9mm Makarov, which has a .360 diameter jacketed bullet (I think) but may have .361 diameter cast slugs work???  They might be a bit on the lightweight side for the 38-200 but at least you wouldn't have to get into casting if you didn't want to. 

The heavier slugs, the 200 gn slugs may be more problemmatic.  Some bullet makers cast a 200 gn 38 (.358 ) slug, but these may come out larger than that before sizing and may work if someone will sell you cast but unsized slugs.  Some bullet makers may already have what you want or can cast it out for you. And even if they were .001 or .002" larger, a Lyman Sizer with the correct diameter sizer might do for you with less cost and environmental impact than casting. 

If you have not yet perused the GBO Sponsors List, I recommend it.  Mid-South is a large supplier and one of our sponsors and may ahve something for you.  Other sponsors may be able to provide you with what you need.  HTH.  Mikey.

[WILD_WEASEL]

Mikey,

Thanks for the update.

George

[Type99]

Hello...

For what it's worth, I use 200 gr. flat nose .360 hard cast lead bullets from Bear Tooth Bullets to load for my Enfield revolver.  I can't remember how much Unique I  use, but I think it is about 3 grains.  I find that the Starline brass does not work well in my Enfield - I think the cases are too thick- they hang up in the cylinder.  I find that the Remington brasss works just fine.  When I use these bullets, my Enfield shoots right to point of aim, and is very accurate.  However, Bear Tooth Bullets usually has a very long wait.  I have heard other people complaining about it on the Internet.  An alternative is Western Bullet Co.  I believe they make a similar heavy bullet for .38 S&W use.

Here is a picture of my revolver and reloads:



Cheers,
Gary

[WILD_WEASEL]

Gary,

Thanks for the info.  As luck would have it I ordered x100 Lyman 200gr #358430 along with some other bullets to try out from Western Bullet Co..  I'll let you know how they work out.  Read an article by Mike Ventirino (sp) were he loaded these for an Enfield No.2 Mk1** with 2.2gr of Bullseye, I'm also looking to try 3gr of Unique too.

[WILD_WEASEL]

Hello,

Got my bullets from http://www.westernbullet.com/cbip/cbip.html and was pleased with their quality.  Loaded up x50 of each and headed to the range with the following results.

1)  200gr Lyman #358430:  These were my main motivation for buying from Western,  my load consisted of 2gr of Bullseye, WSP primer, 38 S&W Starline case.  These loads shot to point of aim at 7 and 15 yards in my Enfield No.2 Mk1 revolver, with no leading.

2)  125gr Lyman #358093:  These bullets just looked too cool not to try, my load consisted of 11gr of 2400, WSP primer, Remington brass case.  Shot to point of aim in my Blackhawk which was sighted in for hot 158gr JSPs and 2" low in my GP-100 with is sighted in for hot 125gr JHPs.  Very accurate load with no leading.

3)  115gr Lyman #311359:  Always looking for something to feed my 30 Carbine Blackhawk, my load consisted of 10gr of 2400, WSR primer, and a Winchester case.  These loads shot to point of aim at 7 and 15 yards with reasonable muzzle blast at an indoor range with no leading.  Full power loads are just too loud for indoor shooting.  Also, this was one of the most accurate loads to date in my Blackhawk shooting into an inch at 15 yards, with no leading.

4)  Lee #90570 165gr LRNFP:  I've wanted to try loads closer to the weight of lead ball in my Ruger Old Army (ROA) using a R&D Conversion Cylinder.  My load consisted of 8gr of Unique, WLP primer, and Winchester case.  These loads shot two inches low at 15 yards into a nice two inch group with no leading.

These bullets are a great value and I had a great time at the range shooting them.

[Mikey]

Type99:  Thanks for laying out that information.  I thought I had remembered correctly regarding the 3 gns of Unique and 200 gn bullet loading and that may even be just a tad light but only by a couple of tenths of a grain of powder.  I also believe that is the load developed by the British to replace the 455 Webley  - the British felt the 38/200 was the battlefield equivalent of the 455 Webley.  Mikey.

[coyotejoe]

I also believe that is the load developed by the British to replace the 455 Webley  - the British felt the 38/200 was the battlefield equivalent of the 455 Webley.  Mikey.

I've also heard that one and can't help wondering how they came to that conclusion, since both rounds are loaded to similar velocities how can smaller equal bigger. I've also read that the Brits found the old .455 revolver too heavy and hard to handle without extensive training which just could not be done with war time recruitment. They hoped the new recruits would do better with the .38 but I don't think that ever proved to be the case.

[Mikey]

coyotejoe:  the 455 Webley was nothing to sneer at (not that you did at all) and worked quite well on the battlefield.  It is ballistically in the same category as the 45acp, just a tad slower and maybe even a tad lighter.  I have had a number of the older MkVI (?) Webleys, one was converted to 45 acp with half moon clips or 45 auto rim and at least one was in 455.  I could tell the 455 was a bit lighter to shoot than the acp but none the less it was well thought of however, I didn't have any problems handling those revolvers. 

There may be some truth to the idea that the 455s are not easy to shoot and it may have been easier to train recruits with a 38 caliber handgun than a 45. 

I do not think both rounds are loaded to the same velocities.  The 455 was somewhere in the 700'/sec range and the 38/200 in the 600-660'/sec range.  The 455 is/was bigger and heavier, the 38/200 smaller, easier to carry and bring into action.  As to effectiveness, the 455 could pass through ya at 25 yds and so did the 38/200.  I feel the effectiveness of the 38/200 came from its 'long for the bore' heavy bullet that did not need a lot of speed to penetrate the human torso and be effective at combat pistol distances which was up to 50m. 

Years ago there were factory 200 gn loadings (round nose) for the 38 Special and the 357 mag.  Velocities on the 200 gn 38 loading were around the 750'/sec mark with the winchester loading gitting a whopping 770'/sec.  But, here is a long heavy slug that stabalized quite well at low velocities and has a lot of penetration - that works.  Mikey. 

[WILD_WEASEL]

Recent message board traffic had rekindled interest in the Enfield No.2Mk1** revolver sitting in the back of my gun safe.  One board member had mil. spec. .380 ammo (38 S&W) for sale so I bought four boxes for a total of 48 rounds in original 12 round boxes.  Already had an original canvas flap holster and this week end was lucky enough to find the pistol ammo pouch that goes with it.  The only accoutrement I need now is the original cleaning rod that fits inside the holster.  From the Lyman 3# Handgun manual I found data that comes close to the original 200gr Lead Round Nose (LRN) loading, that and 200gr (358430) bullets from Western Bullet Co. got me back in business and to the range.  My loads hit pretty close to point of aim at 15 yards and group well, in spite of the horrendous Double Action Only (DAO) trigger pull.  While the Enfield revolver would not be my first choice to defend myself from the AXES OF EVIL, if it was all I had I certainly would not feel unarmed…

[S.S.]

Is your front sight off center?
Mine is and I can not figure any reason for it?
Maybe to compensate for the heavy trigger pull?