Author Topic: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008  (Read 3491 times)

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Offline dukkillr

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Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« on: May 05, 2008, 03:13:48 PM »
Well, since no one around here has said anything, I'll post:

JEFFERSON CITY-Changes in deer-hunting regulations approved by the
Missouri Conservation Commission at its April meeting include one that
enjoys popular support from hunters and one that is likely to be a hit
with hunters 15 and younger.

The Missouri Conservation Commission has more than doubled the number
of counties included in the so-called "four-point rule." This
regulation was tested in 29 counties from 2004 through 2007. This year,
with strong support from hunters, it will apply in the same counties as
before, plus 36 new counties.

The Conservation Commission also voted to add a second, late Youth
Portion of Firearms Deer Season. Hunters under age 16 will have their
own times to hunt Nov. 1 and 2, 2008, and Jan. 3 and 4, 2009.

Counties included under the four-point rule this year are Adair,
Andrew, Atchison, Audrain, Barton, Bates, Benton, Boone, Buchanan,
Caldwell, Callaway Camden, Carroll, Cedar, Chariton, Clark, Clinton,
Cole, Cooper, Daviess, DeKalb, Franklin, Gasconade, Gentry, Grundy,
Harrison, Henry, Hickory, Holt, Howard, Johnson, Knox, Lafayette,
Lewis, Lincoln, Linn, Livingston, Macon, Maries, Marion, Mercer, Miller,
Moniteau, Monroe, Montgomery, Morgan, Nodaway Osage, Pettis, Phelps,
Pike, Pulaski, Putnam, Ralls, Randolph, Ray, St. Clair, Saline,
Schuyler, Scotland, Shelby, Sullivan, Vernon, Warren and Worth.

The four-point rule allows hunters to take a buck only if its antlers
are less than 3 inches long or have at least four points 1 inch or
longer on at least one side.

The Conservation Department decided to try antler restrictions for two
reasons. One was to encourage hunters to shoot more does. This could
help the agency control deer numbers in areas where they rise above
target levels.

The four-point rule also was designed to allow more bucks to reach ages
of 3 years or older. This would produce a deer population with a more
normal age and sex distribution.

The traditional hunter bias toward shooting bucks, rather than does,
creates a population with a disproportionate number of does and young
bucks. Requiring hunters to pass up deer with no more than three points
on a side allows more bucks to live to maturity. A population with more
mature bucks has more large-antlered deer. For many hunters, the
opportunity to take buck with big antlers is an important part of a
high-quality hunting experience.

Information gathered during the four-year test of the four-point rule
showed it increased doe harvests in central Missouri counties, but not
in pilot counties in northwestern Missouri. The four-point rule
increased the number of mature, large-antlered deer in both central and
northwestern counties.

A mail survey of firearms deer hunters statewide found a majority of
hunters in 74 of Missouri's 114 counties favored the four-point rule.
The 30 counties where half or more of hunters do not want the
four-point rule are in southern Missouri, generally southeast of a line from St.
Louis to the southwestern corner of the state. More than 70 percent of
hunters expressed support for the four-point rule in 22 counties that
lie mostly in northern Missouri.

Hunters and non-hunters who expressed opinions at public meetings and
through written comments were even more strongly in favor of the
four-point rule. Comments from 60 counties ran in favor of the
four-point rule by 70 percent or more. Only fourteen counties had
comments with less than a majority in favor of the four-point rule.

"We found that most hunters in most parts of the state like the
four-point rule," said Resource Scientist Lonnie Hansen, the
Conservation Department's top deer biologist.  "We also discovered
people liked the rule more the longer it was in effect in their
counties. Approval of the four-point rule increased in adjoining
counties during the four-year trial, too."

Hansen said the rule's popularity was a major factor in extending
it.

"It didn't work quite as well as we had hoped as a management tool.
It did a better job of shifting harvest from bucks to does in central
Missouri than in the northwest, where we really need more population
management tools. But hunters really like it, especially in the
northern half of the state."

Hansen said the Conservation Commission decided not to implement the
four-point rule in counties around urban areas at this time because it
actually seemed to reduce deer harvest in some northern-Missouri
counties.

"The four-point rule doesn't seem to be the best way manage deer in
urban areas, because we encourage harvest of all sex and age
categories," he said.

The late Youth Portion of Firearms Deer Season will give youngsters the
last shot at deer hunting at a time of year when many can take
advantage of it. Hansen said the additional days of youth deer hunting are part
of the Conservation Department's continuing effort to make hunting more
accessible to young people.

"A lot of Missourians take vacation around the holidays," said
Hansen.  "Youngsters who get deer rifles for Christmas will be able to
use them. The youth-only season allows adults to focus their attention
on teaching kids to hunt. That enhances the hunt's value as a time
for
family."

The length and timing of other 2008 fall deer and turkey seasons remain
unchanged from last year. These include:
--Archery deer and turkey - Sept. 15-Nov. 14 and Nov. 26-Jan. 15
--Urban Portion of Firearms Deer Season - Oct. 3-6
--November Portion of Firearms Deer Season - Nov. 15-25
--Muzzleloader Portion of Firearms Deer Season - Nov. 28-Dec. 7
--Antlerless Portion of Firearms Deer Season - Dec. 13-21

Other changes in deer hunting regulations approved at the April

Commission meeting include:
--Removing two counties in the Springfield area - Christian and Webster
- from the area open to hunting during the Urban Portion of Firearms
Deer Season.
--Removing seven southwest-Missouri counties - Barton, Christian, Dade,
Jasper, Lawrence, Polk and Webster - from the area open to hunting
during the Antlerless Portion of Firearms Deer Season.
--Adding one central-Missouri county - Miller - to the area open during
the Antlerless Portion of Firearms Deer Season.
--Adding 12 southwest-Missouri counties - Barry, Barton, Christian,
Dade, Jasper, Lawrence, McDonald, Newton, Polk, Stone, Webster and
Wright - to the area where hunters may only fill one antlerless-only
deer tag.

Additional details of deer and turkey hunting regulations will be
published in the 2008 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Regulations and
Information booklet, which will be available from permit vendors
statewide in July.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 03:40:34 PM »
I'm all for it.  Heck, I think you should have to "earn" your buck tag by tagging a doe first in some of the more populated counties.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2008, 05:43:23 PM »
I'm all for it.  Heck, I think you should have to "earn" your buck tag by tagging a doe first in some of the more populated counties.
Me too.  I just wish some of those MO hunters that don't want AP had the opportunity to hunt states with more balanced herds... I think much of the complaining would disappear. 

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 02:20:04 AM »
I'm all for it.  Heck, I think you should have to "earn" your buck tag by tagging a doe first in some of the more populated counties.
Me too.  I just wish some of those MO hunters that don't want AP had the opportunity to hunt states with more balanced herds... I think much of the complaining would disappear. 

I believe you're right.  I've seen areas where management practices have been in place for 10+ years, and all I could think was "WOW!"  We need to get some sort of management going.

Offline alpha wolf

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 05:13:16 PM »
Here's the thing in the article it states the same thing much of us were saying in the other post IT IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE MANAGEMENT TOLL it only increased doe harvest in some of the counties  the MDC just wants bigger bucks to attract more out of state hunters

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 05:07:11 PM »
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't more big bucks a good thing for IN-STATE hunters as well?

Offline troy5775

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2008, 05:23:18 PM »
I am a meat hunter, not an atler hunter, I can not afford to hunt in other states. I hunt public land, not on your private hunting reserves, if I want to shoot a six pointer on one of the few days that I get to hunt, I am going to shoot it. How does that affect what you do on your private land, don't force your monster buck rules on me, if you want to shoot a big deer in another state, good for you. Let me hunt how I want to hunt and I will let you hunt the way you want to hunt.

It all boils down to the fact that I have limited time and money to hunt with, I will shoot the first deer that comes by. Any deer is a trophy to me, including the little four pointer I shot a few years ago. There have been too many years that I have went home with no deer at all.

Offline troy5775

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 05:26:54 PM »
I'm all for it.  Heck, I think you should have to "earn" your buck tag by tagging a doe first in some of the more populated counties.
Me too.  I just wish some of those MO hunters that don't want AP had the opportunity to hunt states with more balanced herds... I think much of the complaining would disappear. 


I tell you what, sponsor me a hunt in another state and then we will talk about it when I am done. That will grant both of our wishes ;)

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 05:40:28 PM »
I am a meat hunter, not an atler hunter, I can not afford to hunt in other states. I hunt public land, not on your private hunting reserves, if I want to shoot a six pointer on one of the few days that I get to hunt, I am going to shoot it. How does that affect what you do on your private land, don't force your monster buck rules on me, if you want to shoot a big deer in another state, good for you. Let me hunt how I want to hunt and I will let you hunt the way you want to hunt.

It all boils down to the fact that I have limited time and money to hunt with, I will shoot the first deer that comes by. Any deer is a trophy to me, including the little four pointer I shot a few years ago. There have been too many years that I have went home with no deer at all.

Troy, the area of the state that you hunt in is going to make a difference on if antler point restrictions are appropriate.  In areas with low populations, it's not going to be instituted.

As for your jab at "private hunting reserves," I can assure you that my hunting is far from it.  If I had a private reserve I could manage my own deer the way I wanted and to hell with the rest of the state.  However, I don't have that luxury. 

Where I hunt, the herd is way out of whack because of guys shooting ANY buck just to say they killed a buck.  There's 10 does for every buck and the bucks that do make it are scrawny, for the most part.  If these clowns who feel the need to kill a little basket 6 or fork horn would lay off those bucks and take does instead, there would be more and larger bucks, and they'd be easier to kill because with a balanced herd the bucks will have to move around and compete more to mate.

It all boils down to a healthy herd.  10-to-1 doe to buck ratio is not a healthy herd.  A herd where bucks never reach maturity (at least 3 1/2 years old) is not a healthy herd.  To build a healthy herd, you have to get the doe to buck ratio as close to 1-1 as possible, and that means letting the bucks walk, period.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 06:05:39 PM »
I'm all for it.  Heck, I think you should have to "earn" your buck tag by tagging a doe first in some of the more populated counties.
Me too.  I just wish some of those MO hunters that don't want AP had the opportunity to hunt states with more balanced herds... I think much of the complaining would disappear. 


I tell you what, sponsor me a hunt in another state and then we will talk about it when I am done. That will grant both of our wishes ;)

There are still some leftover tags for KS.  I spent more than an hour the other day helping a teacher from Florida find a quality place in Unit 11 to hunt on his budget.  It's a great opportunity for deer hunters willing to make sacrifices of their time and money.  Just like everything else in life, it comes down to priorities and the decisions we make. 

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 06:09:55 PM »
It all boils down to a healthy herd.  10-to-1 doe to buck ratio is not a healthy herd.  A herd where bucks never reach maturity (at least 3 1/2 years old) is not a healthy herd.  To build a healthy herd, you have to get the doe to buck ratio as close to 1-1 as possible, and that means letting the bucks walk, period.

Well said.  I too have struggled with areas of Missouri where the hunter tradition is uninformed and short sighted.  It's amazing how much of people's stances are based on tradition and not biology.

Offline troy5775

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 06:13:55 AM »
In nortern Missouri, I believe that the earn a buck program would work better than the point restriction. I have no problem shooting a doe, they eat better any way.

As far as hunting out of state, where I go my family goes. If I were to go to Kansas to hunt and tell my son and daughter they couldn't go and hunt with me....let's just say that wouldn't work. Deer hunting for us is a family affair. That is my priority and the decision I make. Family first. I already had to deal with the dissapointment in my 10 year old daughters eyes last year when the only deer that came her way during the youth hunt was a doe and we were in a buck only area. I don't want to have to deal with the same thing because a buck doesn't have enough points. That is my point of view. It is hard enough with out her having to make sure she has to count points before she can shoot her first deer.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 01:24:55 PM »
In nortern Missouri, I believe that the earn a buck program would work better than the point restriction. I have no problem shooting a doe, they eat better any way.

As far as hunting out of state, where I go my family goes. If I were to go to Kansas to hunt and tell my son and daughter they couldn't go and hunt with me....let's just say that wouldn't work. Deer hunting for us is a family affair. That is my priority and the decision I make. Family first. I already had to deal with the dissapointment in my 10 year old daughters eyes last year when the only deer that came her way during the youth hunt was a doe and we were in a buck only area. I don't want to have to deal with the same thing because a buck doesn't have enough points. That is my point of view. It is hard enough with out her having to make sure she has to count points before she can shoot her first deer.

From the sounds of where you are at, a buck only area, you must be in a place with a low population.  That sort of area isn't one where antler restrictions or doe kills are appropriate.  You won't get antler point restrictions while your area is in that state. 

Now, you've got to realize that your area is the exception, not the rule.  In much of the state, the population is high.  When you have a large population, shooting does and antler point restrictions are a good way to manage the herd, both for the health of the heard and for the hunter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is just trust the MDC to do their job! 

Offline alpha wolf

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2008, 06:05:07 AM »
you are still avoiding the point that in some of the areas ( the ones where they wanted deer harvest to increase) deer harvest has went down which means it is not helping out your doe to buck ratio.  the antler point restriction does not manage the intire deer population.  all it accomplishes is a bunch of old deer walking around that after they are killed the meet is so tough that no one can eat it which is a waste.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2008, 08:48:56 AM »
you are still avoiding the point that in some of the areas ( the ones where they wanted deer harvest to increase) deer harvest has went down which means it is not helping out your doe to buck ratio.  the antler point restriction does not manage the intire deer population.  all it accomplishes is a bunch of old deer walking around that after they are killed the meet is so tough that no one can eat it which is a waste.

It takes time for tradition to change.  It takes longer in southern Missouri than it does in normal places.  Give it time and as hunters become educated to herd control you will see antlerless harvest increase.  Nothing changes over night.

Offline kevthebassman

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2008, 10:23:09 AM »
you are still avoiding the point that in some of the areas ( the ones where they wanted deer harvest to increase) deer harvest has went down which means it is not helping out your doe to buck ratio.  the antler point restriction does not manage the intire deer population.  all it accomplishes is a bunch of old deer walking around that after they are killed the meet is so tough that no one can eat it which is a waste.

Like Dukkillr said, the program is still new, but the principle of quality deer management is rock solid.  Mandatory doe harvest before you can take a buck is the easy fix for that problem.  Actual, physical deer checking stations will help too.

Offline alpha wolf

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2008, 11:23:53 AM »
It is not southern Missouri that is not increasing harvest it is in northern Missouri that deer harvest has decreased which is the total opposite of what the mdc wanted

Offline BobT

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Re: Antler Point Restriction Changes 2008
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 07:47:15 AM »
you are still avoiding the point that in some of the areas ( the ones where they wanted deer harvest to increase) deer harvest has went down which means it is not helping out your doe to buck ratio.  the antler point restriction does not manage the intire deer population.  all it accomplishes is a bunch of old deer walking around that after they are killed the meet is so tough that no one can eat it which is a waste.

Like Dukkillr said, the program is still new, but the principle of quality deer management is rock solid.  Mandatory doe harvest before you can take a buck is the easy fix for that problem.  Actual, physical deer checking stations will help too.

Hello All,
 I have been gone for a while but dropped back in today and I thought would give my input. Quality deer management principals are indeed "rock solid" but it does not encourage the harvest of bucks with  4 or more points on a side. It encourages the harvest of MATURE animals. Just because a buck has the requisite number of points does not mean he is a mature animal. If the antler point restriction is enforced long enough the legal buck harvest will go down dramatically because the bucks genetically predisposed to have 4 or more points on a side will not live long enough to reproduce. The earn a buck program might help to bring numbers under control but I doubt that it would go over too well in most areas of the state

 As far as balancing the deer heard into a 1:1 ratio I doubt that it would be possible on a large scale ie. statewide or county wide for that matter

Troy,
As far as youth hunters I think they should be able to take any deer statewide especially a "first" deer.

Me personally, I shoot whatever deer I feel like shooting at the time, I have let bucks and does both walk just because I wanted to . I'm neither a trophy hunter or a meat hunter I simply decide what I will shoot when it's in my sights.