150 grain camp vs. 100 grain camp

[agdexter]

Been doing a lot of reading here. I see the fellows who swear by their 150 grain magnum charges and those that scoff at them for wasting powder. I do not see a whole lot of supportive facts. Some of the leaning toward the 150 grain charge can be chalked up to some of us falling for man's basic need for or the illusion of "more power".

The 150 grainers say they are getting more range, more knock down  power without sacrificing accuracy.

The 100 grainers say that much of the extra powder is just being pushed unburnt out the muzzle of the rifle. That most common barrel lengths do not give it the necessary burn time before the bullet is gone. Although these same fellows also say the extra recoil impact is greater?

Has anyone out there looked at this seriously? Has anyone done chronograph tests at 100, 110, 120, 130, 140 & 150 to see exactly where, if ever, the velocity drops off because no more powder can be burned in the barrel length. I don't have a chron, but I would think it would be fairly simple to put to rest the idea of what is the maximum amount of powder that can be burned in a standard length barrel. I realize accuracy would have to be left out of it and bullet weights/types and powder types would change it a little. I would just like to see if someone has or will do it to put the matter and perhaps some illusions to rest.

[Underclocked]

Yes, they have.    Results are posted on a couple of other forums that support the notion of wasted powder and low payback for the heavier loads.

"Although these same fellows also say the extra recoil impact is greater?"  Just realize that powder is a mass in the barrel and the question mark will go away.

[RandyWakeman]

Has anyone out there looked at this seriously? Has anyone done chronograph tests at 100, 110, 120, 130, 140 & 150 to see exactly where, if ever, the velocity drops off because no more powder can be burned in the barrel length. I don't have a chron, but I would think it would be fairly simple to put to rest the idea of what is the maximum amount of powder that can be burned in a standard length barrel.

A lot of people have. Out of 20 ++++ muzzleloaders tested by me, not one has given better (or even acceptable accuracy) out of a 140-150 gr. load than a 90-100 grain load, including pellets.

Accuracy, depending on specific gun / powder / projectile, goes south after 115-120 grains of loose powder, last tests were with T7.

90 gr. 220 grain Dead Center-- 1917 fps

110 grains 220 grain Dead Center-- 2201 fps

Now, 150 grains T7-- 2303 fps. Yes, velocity was still going up (and recoil) so "some" of the extra charge is making gas. 40 extra grains T7 for 100 fps and no accuracy? Not the best approach.

[denvas]

agdexter,

For the past 30 years I have shot and hunted with almost every kind of muzzleloader on the market today, and many experimental models that never made it to market. There has been one thing that has been consistent through all of the guns I have shot, whether they were flintlock, percussion cap side hammer or under hammer models, inlines, mule-ear hammer, etc. The stoutest load that these guns could handle individually was never the most accurate load they shot. There was even one Pedersoli target rifle that was touted as being able to handle loads of up to 120 grains whose most accurate load at 100 yards proved to be 32 grains or FFG Goex. No it wasn’t very fast and it wouldn’t have been a bone crusher on game, but it consistently cloverleafed the round balls at the 100 yard mark. In fact that year the International Muzzleloading Championship was won by a young lady from the US using that exact load. I think that many times today we get caught up in the magnumitis that has afflicted many of our cartridge shooting brethren. What we should be worrying about is accuracy. After all the animals we hunt don’t care if they die 7 nano seconds faster from one load over another load. If we can’t accurately place our shots in an ethical manner then all we have will be a lot of wounded and lost game. And that doesn’t do us as hunters or the animals we hunt any good. Take the time to test as many loads and projectiles as your pocketbook and time will allow. Do this with the aim of finding the most accurate load then learn how to properly place your shot!

[Underclocked]

denvas, that is a great bit of advice and I share your view totally.  Just wish at least ONE of the major manufacturers would grow some of the necessary orbs and become a strong proponent of that position.

Preaching a sane approach to the masses instead of the more, faster, lighter, longer ad campaigns would get my vote and probably my business.

$$ rule and so it shall remain as it is, I'm afraid.

[johnt]

Yur right dexter, and so are sum other's. It's all been tested over and over, the tough part about a chrony and ML BP is the same load and charge compressed to #45 will read different than compressed to# 60, across the chrony.Was the lube the same? Barrel condition the same?
 Feller's that shoot over a chrony,increases load until they reach "the point of diminising return",and don't look at the paper down range.
  The same P.D.R is reached as far as accuracy's concern far below maximum velocity for "most" projectiles used in ML BP rifles.
  The argument is 400yrs. old. If there was a perfect load, we'd all have it.  The variables alone,at least for me is what makes BP fun, it bring's back the "sport",the challenge.
   The key for each shooter is to 1st learn a consistant pattern of loading and shooting. Guy's don't win the state shoot by buying a wallymart bubble pack an sum pyrodex pellet's.
  The folk's that make pellets,sued another maker of pellet's right out of business.
  How can ya increase load by 5gr increment's,to find the P.D.R. for the best accuracy for any rifle,using 50-30gr pellets? Whittle?

[1860]

My inline stops showing useful gains in velocity @135grs, and I shoot 130, it’s very accurate.  If I take that same sabot and shoot 80 grs., it’s less accurate, because the sabot is designed for high pressure and doesn’t fully obdurate with a lighter load.  I’m sure I could find a sabot that works real well @ 80grs, maybe even a tad better than my 130gr. load, I just like em going fast.


There are no absolutes, gun to gun of the same model, even the projectile and ignition choice changes the results.  The diameter of the bullet or sabot combo will effect pressure and therefore the burn rate, bottom line will be a velocity difference and probably accuracy as well.  I’ve chrono’d many guns and loads, some will register gains right up to 150grs, other stop somewhere below that number.  As far as accuracy goes, you can push any gun, even a center fire, too fast for the bullet/rifling combination and accuracy will suffer, nothing new here.

What I don’t understand is what is wrong with unburnt powder, it may add to the fouling, I guess it may be a fire hazard in some situations, and then there is cost.  I look down the bbl. Of my scattergun after a heavy day of shooting and there is unburnt red-dot in it.  My colt 45 doesn’t burn all of the 7.5grs. of unique I put in it, wonder how much of that I’m wasting, wonder how much I should care.  Want to test the effects of recoil, take a 100gr. load and shoot a few, then add 50grs of cream-o-wheat, shoot a few.  Then do the same thing with 150grs. of powder, (or any wts. you choose).  The wt of the powder adds very little to the recoil, the extra power adds quite a bit.  

1860

[johnt]

Well said 1860', really.
  There's nothing wrong with unburnt powder, it's just an indication that there is wasted motion.
  As you have found,the slightly smaller load lends accuracy, this fact tend's to be compounded when using PRB in cap or flint,because of the patching marterial/lube and loading pressure of each individual. Please,giving the consideration that the "patch" is to impart the rifling to the ball,and the charge does impart obduration to the projectile. Many folk's don't even see this aspect. They just shoot a bunch,experiment/pratice untill it's found to be just right :wink:.
  Or they buy the wally bubble pack, the "sports" Dept. kid says,"Well, Most people buy these", when it comes to powder charge.
  Now there's a new generation of "What's the best pellet?"
  Oh,man   , marketing,, :oops:
 Best wishes,allin ya