Fire forming without the bullet?

[Quigley 45-120]

Seems like i read something long ago about a way to fire form brass without actually firing a bullet. It involved some type of wad i think and the regular powder and primer, but the bullet wasn't involved. Has anybody ever heard of anything like this? Yes i know it sounds rediculous!  :?

[ButlerFord45]

Quigley  it appears that most of the pros around hereare busy elsewhere.  When I read your post, I agreed that yeah, th at seems like a goofy idea, but then I thought about it and if you can use balck powder and a wad to make a blank, when you fired it, wouldn't it have much the same effect?  I have no idea if it would have as much effect as firing with a bullet, but it wouldn't take but a minute or two to find out.

I hope someone with more experience comes to the rescue on this one, cause I really don't know.

[rdnck]

Q45120--If you are fireforming a 45-120, forget it.  It isn't necessary.  If you can chamber a loaded round, it will shoot just fine.

I never fireform brand new 45-70 cases.  Just load them with 70 grains of Goex 2f and a Lyman Postell bullet, and they will shoot with your older cases the first time out.  I just got 200 cases for my 45 2 7/8 from Buffalo Arms, and did the same thing.  Just loaded them and shot them.  I've fired about 90 of them so far with both grease groove and paper patch bullets and 110 grains of Goex 1f, and accuracy is fine.  

I think that if you are using straight walled cases and black powder, fireforming cases is a waste of time and powder.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

[Quigley 45-120]

I have several hundred cases on order and was wondering how to proceed with sizing. I guess i'll just trim to length and start shooting. I understand i'll have to watch the length closely for the first several uses and then they should be alright for some time after that without any sizing or trimming at all? Sure am pleased to have found you guys here. What a great site and fine people! Thanks for the info. :grin:

[rdnck]

Q45120--Here's how I do it.  When the cases get in, check a half dozen or so and see if they will chamber EASILY.  If they don't, you will have to full length size them.  If they do chamber easily, measure a dozen or so for length to make sure that they are not too long.  If you have to full length size them, they will get from .005 to .007 longer when you size them, so measure a few after they are sized.

If they will chamber easily, and are not too long, neck expand them so that your bullet will seat, and then you can load them.

The best and safest way is to full length size them, then measure them and trim if necessary.  Then neck expand, load, and shoot.  I have found Remington 45-70 cases to be so uniform for length that measuring new ones is a waste of time.  My 45-2 7/8 cases from Buffalo Arms were all very uniform, and the correct length.  If your cases are Bell, Bertram, or some other, you will likely be better off to check each case.  Shoot straight, rdnck.

[JBMauser]

I have read and had posters advise fireforming w/o a bullet with Cream of Wheat.  Most times it was in a necked cart.  The round if fired straight up to give max gravity/weight/inerta to the COW so as to load the charge.  Others talk of loading a charge and topping with some COW and a led ball.  I have used nither method but have use COW in my front stuffer and seen a market increase in pressure/recoil.  Best of luck.  JB

[John Traveler]

Indeed, fire-forming cartridge cases is easily done.

It's a standard procedure for forming bottlenecked cases to near-full capacity for full-charge loads.  It's not normally done to straight-walled cases (unless you are making them from a bottle-necked case).

Here's how I do it (instructions came from the late George Note in his "Handloading" book).

1.  Use any old junk primer.  I use 50 year old military surplus primers.  

2.  Load a moderate charge of a fast pistol or shotgun powder like Red Dot or WW 231 or Bullseye.  This can vary from say, 5 or 6 grains to as high as 10 or 12 grains.  BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THE FASTEST PISTOL POWDERS.  PRESSURES CAN BECOME EXCESSIVE QUICKLY!!!  START LOW AND WORK UP!!  Load only enough to form the shoulder where you want it.

3.  Wad with 1/4 of a sheet of bathroom tissue paper.  Kleenex works too.  Ram down onto the powder, and fill case with Cream of Wheat.  I've used rice run thru a coffee grinder when no COW was available.  Use a bit of tissue wad to hold the COW in place.

4.  Fire into a proper backstop.  I use a plastic liter size Coca Cola bottle imbedded in a garbage can half full of sand   THEY ARE NOISY, SO TAKE PRECAUTIONS.  You can muffle the noise with old pillows, blankets, etc.

These fireforming loads save you the bullet and powder expenses of a bulleted load.  I've made .43 Egyptian, .43 Spanish, .38-55, etc from more easily available brass.

HTH
John

[Quigley 45-120]

Thanks john. That sounds like the ticket for me. No wasted bullets and i don't even have to go to the range to use this method. Sure appreciate it!

[John Traveler]

Oh, yeah.  a funny story to go with the case-forming info:

Year ago, when I was both young AND foolish, I loaded .30-30 winchester cases and fireformed them to make .38-55.  I was in a hurry, and waited until late night to fire them off by sticking the muzzle out the sliding glass door.  the sliding screen had to move too, of course.  Anyway, the sliding screen made a distinctive screech when opened, but I fired off a few rounds at 10 minute intervals, waiting to see if a neighbor had called the cops about "shots fired".

I got away with it, so I thought!  The next day my good neighber Murray asked if that was me shooting last night?  HUH?, I said.  He replied that he heard the screen door opening before each shot.  I admitted that yes, it was me, but only for fireforming cases, and I showed him the ones in my pocket and described how they had no bullet and were harmless.  He gave the funniest look that said, you gotta be outta your mind!  He said that he was gonna call the cops until he realized it was me.

Anyway, shortly after, I read in the paper about how some guy on the other side of town got cited for firing BLANKS, and received several hundred dollars fine from a very unhumourous magistrate.

I guess you could say that God looks after fools and drunks, and I qualified for one of those!