Use Cannons...You can ask all about me !!!

[KABAR2]

Gato,

I have had time to review the rest of your videos,
from everything I see you and your craftsmen do fine work,
I'm sure right now you must be frustrated with the Americans
and feel like we have ganged up on you, that is not our intent,
our concerns should be viewed as an opportunity to improve
your product, if you sold cannon that met the N-SSA standard
it would open your market up to those who would be likely to
look elsewhere.

Allen <><

[dan610324]

yeah I agree with kabar2
please dont take it as pure criticism , ok my words maybe have been hard but its such an important topic.

SAFETY IS NOT AN NEGOTIABLE TOPIC

PLEASE SHOW US HOW YOUR CANNONS IS DESIGNED .

an technical drawing or an cut open tube with installed breach plug will do .

ok there are a lot of other cannon manufacturers , but I would say the same to them as I do to you .

the post from seacoast artillery was an smart suggestion , here you can prove for a lot of potential buyers that your guns are safe .

[Gatto_Gunmaker]

Hello people,

I think there is much to explain.
But I need you to use imagination and common sense.

My all cannons has welded pipes inside.
Since now I make changes to seamless tube inside. OK? (Only by advance request of the client)
Each cannon firing without any tube inside. All cannons have a lot of brass wall.
A wall so thin steel sewing and another wall so thin steel seamless, makes no difference.
Please evaluate each cannon in its entirety. I do not produce single cannon tube with seam inside, I melt many quantity of Brass around.
We use tube with the aim of unifying the caliber. I do not trust all security in the tube inside.
The rear of the tube is threaded and stamped by outside of the tube.

I think there are many people who have my cannons and knows they are good.
I understand that their rules preventing the manufacture of cannons with seam tube inside and that can be changed now.
Please take steps of wall brass in each cannon and see that wall is enough without the tube.
In this case, the rules are the rules. It is OK...
I do not go against that now know this.
But I think, now my cannons is safe ... if used properly.
I will not be the only ignore that.
Here are people who do not know that the mortars and Mountain Howitzer are not common cannons, and pretend shooting of lead ammunition. This is not madness, is ignorance.
If not known weapon, it's best not to take any weapon, because no matter how it was manufactured. This person having an accident.

If anyone here wants to buy a cannon to enroll in N-SSA, and I must warn reply price for this product.
I never hide my own cannons have tube seam inside, so I regret to clients who buy without asking.
In any event should complain with Wild Imports for this reason.
They always know this from the beginning and they never warned me about the problem with the N-SSA rules.

Please sorry

Many greetings
Osvaldo Gatto

[Gatto_Gunmaker]

I would be happy with everyone here in the forum.
I just want to not cloud their vision with a thin wall of steel, the real star is the large amount of brass on the walls.

I have 30 years experience in antique weapons and 10 years that manufacture cannons. (22 models, include Steel 1045 models cannons)
I believe that there are 1800 people who have my cannons and they do not require demonstration of operations.
I think about my cannon be explaining to people who never have a cannon made by my.

This is the first time that I have contact with North American public directly. I think we have much to learn from the 2 sides.

Thanks
Osvaldo   

[Cat Whisperer]

Osvaldo -

Thank you on sharing the details of how you make your product. 

Sharing these details to be reviewed by other knowledgeable people is good - very professional.

DD & I started this forum to learn and to provide a place where others can share their experiences and designs.

We now have people posting here from several countries & even continents.

I am pleasantly surprised that we can communicate across the language barriers. 

[Double D]

Part of the problem with this discussion is language.  It is remarkable that we are all communicating as i know there are at least three different languanges at use here.

We have disscussed this topic to death.  I still think there is a basic misunderstanding here, but we aren't going to resovle it right now.

Osvaldo You will find the U.S Market very lucrative.  We don't have the restrictive laws that other country have.  Your cannons are very attractive and reasonabley priced.   

But if you really want to do well in the market, make safety first and foremost. Make your liners for the U.S. Market seamless with a breechplug made to N-SSA standards. And Advertise that.

[HuecoDoc]

Osvaldo does make steel cannons as well, but it appears to me that an all-steel cannon can fail criteria.  The N-SSA rules state that all reproductions must be iron, steel, or bronze, and regardless of material must have seamless steel sleeves.  Is this due to variances in cast steel strength?  Even a cannon machined from solid steel would fail, as it is not extruded.  Are these criteria set due to the existence of an ANSI standard of seamless tube, whereas tolerances are uncontrolled (or unverified) in casting?

[dan610324]

why should an solid steel cannon fail ??

you couldn't have an thicker steel sleeve then so 

its just that you have no outer   

or you could spray it with bronze and you have that also

[HuecoDoc]

why should an solid steel cannon fail ??

N-SSA rules 2006:
"All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness."

Answer: because it's not extruded seamless.  I'm not saying it would fail and explode, I'm saying it would fail to be approved by the N-SSA and be illegal in Massachusetts.

[dan610324]

so you mean you could use whatever cast iron quality you want with an 3/8 sleeve ??

and they wouldn't let you use an cannon turned from an solid hot milled steel bar designed after the 1 cal rule ?? Im talking about steel not cast iron .

in my way you would have approximately 2,5 inch wall thickness in an 2 inch caliber cannon as an minimum .

I dont know if this is an language problem from my side , but I cant understand any reason for that .

I cant find anything to be more seamless then that . this would be an seamless tube without any breach plug , it would be totaly in one piece solid steel .

[HuecoDoc]

I dont know if this is an language problem from my side , but I cant understand any reason for that .

Neither do I understand it, but it seems that they surely would have thought of it.

[cannonmn]

The solid steel 8" mortar I posted a picture of the other day was approved for NSSA use, at least I was told so by a former owner, and he said he had papers to prove it.  Wonder if they've changed the rules since then?  It would seem strange to me if the NSSA would not accept a solid steel weapon.

[dan610324]

thanks cannonmn , that wouldnt only be strange , it would be crazy   

what could be better to use then solid steel ??

we got an steel manufacturer here in town , but my lathe is to small , maximum length for me is 30 inch.

and after this discussion Im not sure if its any good business idea to build cannons in solid steel either .

[Double D]

As I read the N-SSA guidlines an all steel cannon would exceed the minimum demensional standards for a liner, thus allowed. That is as long as all other required dimensions such as one caliber breech wall were met.

As to solid breech that by itself meets standards.  You are only required to have a breech plug made to standard in a tube.  A blind hole bored steel bore is not a tube.

[HuecoDoc]

As I read the N-SSA guidelines an all steel cannon would exceed the minimum dimensional standards for a liner, thus allowed.

Yet they are very specific that all reproduction cannons, whether steel or otherwise, have an extruded seamless sleeve with photographs of breech welding, etc.  On other issues such as projectiles they do defer to individual judgment, but they are firm here.  A solid steel cannon isn't (necessarily) extruded.  It seems that a bore liner present only for the sake of creating a uniform centered bore (as Osvaldo asserts) shouldn't detract from the integrity of a well-cast metal.

I have read here that casting around a tube can create voids that can be avoided (pardon the pun) by casting a barrel solid and then boring it.  But even then, even with steel, there is no extruded liner.

Sorry if I become annoying, I happen to own one of these and would like to use it.

"All reproduction barrels must be made of iron, steel or bronze. All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness. The liner must be closed at the breech end with a steel plug, sweat-fitted into the liner and welded. The breech plug must have a radius of at least 25 percent of the bore radius and be at least 1 inch thick at its thinnest point. (See figure 10.1). All reproduction barrels manufactured after March 1, 1986 must have pictures of the liner and breech plug before and after welding."

[Double D]

extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness.

From the practice of N-SSA it is obvious that a solid piece of steel that meets or exceeds a minimum ANSI standard seamless steel tubing and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness is allowed.  If you have piece of steel that is 9 inches in diameter with bore of  3 inches, the wall thickeness is in excess of 3/8 inch.  The solid steel would exceed ANSI standards for Seamless tubing. and the whole barrel is the liner.  As far as the welded breech plug goes since the steel exceeds ANSI standards for Seamless tubing and it's not tubing no welded breech plug would be needed as a solid breech exceeds the strength of a welded breech.

Although it's poorly worded it's obvious that the welded breech, seamless tubing and 3/8 in wall are minimum standards, not maximum.

I don't think that there is a Conferate 24 PDR mortar used in N-SSA  that is anything but a machined solid steel.

What is really interesting is I know we have some active N-SSA folks here and they are conspiciously silent in this debate

[HuecoDoc]

From the practice of N-SSA it is obvious that a solid piece of steel that meets or exceeds a minimum ANSI standard seamless steel tubing...

Although it's poorly worded it's obvious that the welded breech, seamless tubing and 3/8 in wall are minimum standards, not maximum.

OK, sorry if I seem thick.  I was thinking (or thicking as the case may be) that it had to be ANSI, and also of that minimum, not a minimum of that ANSI.  I understand, even if I can't say it.

[cannonmn]

"All reproduction barrels must be made of iron, steel or bronze. All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness. The liner must be closed at the breech end with a steel plug, sweat-fitted into the liner and welded. The breech plug must have a radius of at least 25 percent of the bore radius and be at least 1 inch thick at its thinnest point. (See figure 10.1). All reproduction barrels manufactured after March 1, 1986 must have pictures of the liner and breech plug before and after welding."

If we're talking in terms of the Wild Imports type cannon, there's an issue we know of now since the casting is done using brass and not bronze.  Brass does not normally have the same tensile strength as bronze, but it depends on the particular alloy being discussed.  There are literally hundreds of "recognized" alloy formulas for brasses and bronzes, so it is hard to make any accurate statement regarding the properties of those nonferrous alloys unless the exact alloy forumula is stated.

[GGaskill]

70/30 brass is cartridge brass, that which is used to make small arms cartridge cases.  Its tensile strength is quite good although its elongation is kind of low.  Traditional tin bronze of the early 19th century is barely half the tensile strength of 70/30 brass with only a slightly better elongation.

Given only a choice between the two, I would take the 70/30.  But there are even better brasses/bronzes than these, naval brass, for example.

Modern terminology in the copper alloy field calls alloys of copper and zinc brasses, and alloys of copper and other elements bronzes.  Tin is not a required alloying element for a metal to be called a bronze.

[Tropico]

Just out of curiosity are there North-South Skirmish Association events in all 50 states?  if so I haven't heard of any in my neighborhood., and if I don't attend their events.,(And I'll bet most cannoneers don't) . How come the demand to build a cannon that passes their inspection?..., By the way I do have a Brass cannon ., it is 3"Brass rod with a 1"bore of my own design., built by one of our sponsors here on the forum.., Its doing just fine and I fire 1"lead thru it. when one of our sponsors made it., everyone thought it was just fine? It has no steel liner. I had a Bronze made not long ago., it has no steel liner.  Really just for the sake of the conversation., if most of these events are on the east coast and I live on the  west., I take my cannon out into the woods for my own fun., and the gun is machined past safe tolerances....., is that o.k ? There is an awful lot of cannon that goes thru here not built to NSSA specs. I have a wild imports cannon.,The wild imports does not get lead.,but it kicks an awesome blank ! for the money it looks pretty and goes boom., Its a great signal gun we like it.  I have some stainless guns being machined.,Now I see that's not meeting NSSA ...., Well these are going on the boat (SALTWATER)  yea most NSSA events aren't going to take place on the ocean and these are going to resist corrosion a little better than seamless  steel.,I understand about the seamless., that makes sense sure...., but steel rusts., I wouldn't want a steel cannon on the water., just too much maintenance....,I got enough to do..., I need stuff i can clean then know its not going to start rusting anyway. Oiled or not., if its on the boat and its not stainless or bronze..., It's GOING TO RUST. I think there should be a little more thought involved in cannon making than if it passes the NSSA.  

My first cannon I picked up in 1989 I have been shooting it relentlessly for almost 20 years.,terribly abusing it before i joined the forum and learned what a foil packet was., or had propper tools made for it., ect.,ect., (the forum is awesome)  After a recent hone and inspect at a well respected machine shop its as good as new., its a casting from a major foundry in my area., 80% Stainless and 20% nickel., No-Liner machined and fired ever since.., no-rust., no bulging., no signs of being fired after the hot tank ., honing and inspect. I am sure it doesn't meet the NSSA either., but it doesn't mean it isnt any good does it .  

I am glad NSSA exists., it gives people who want involved something great to do.,However it is obvious there are alot more cannons in the US than NSSA members . Gatto's two larger naval cannons certainly meet the 1 caliber rule . I dont have one., but I have seen them.  My little 1.75 caliber victory cannon (Signal) does not meet 1 caliber rule., so we fire blanks from that. It does however have a stainless sleeve and it cleens easily and does not rust.

[dan610324]

how about the radius in the bottom of the bore , is that an must ??

or is it enough with the 118 degree angle that it is on the tip of an drill bit ??

Im still of course speaking of an steel cannon .

[Victor3]

 "20% nickel"

 Your cannon is no doubt made from one of the Inconel/Inconoly families of materials. Some of the best for marine environments to be sure. You can probably get away with never cleaning it.

 But as 'Mr. T' might say - "I pitty the fool who hasta machine 'em."

 All of the high nickel/chromium alloy 'super-materials' for aircraft and marine applications are a super-PITA to work with...

[dan610324]

it would mean the total nickel content would be somewhere in the 25 - 30 %

THAT'S EXTREME   I can understand the problem to machine it .
ordinary stainless can be problems sometimes

[Double D]

N-SSA and AAA are both primarily east of the Mississipi were more people are involved the Civil war history.  There is a west Coast group  involved in Civil War history and live fire exercises including shooting cannons.  They have a webpage but I haven't looked at in a long time.  I do recall sending an email to them in the early days of this forum and I was told that they look at the N-SSA rules for safe cannon construction.

There is a lot of cannon shooting that goes on of cannons that do meet N-SSA basic guidelines.  Are these cannon unsafe, are N-SSA built cannons safer?  Some of them of course are very much unsafe, we have seen more than one of them here on this board. But a great number more are safe, even though they don't meet standards.  But we also have an obligation to make our sport as safe as possible.

When I first started shooting cannons back in the late 1970's my cannon was made of schedule 80 pipe. It never blew up.  So, does that mean it's safe.  Anybody wanna say my schedule 80 gun tube was safe becasue it never blew up. 

Just because a cannon has not failed does not mean it is safe, it just means that particular cannon hasn't failed.

I know that there is a large body of knowledge that went into N-SSA rules.  Not only are the rules based on original engineering rules of cannon construction, but the evaluation of cannon failures over time by study of the orignal reports on the failure and the later evaluation by subject matter experts-metalurgist and engineers. 

N-SSA rules are minimum standards, that means the cannon should not be condtructed to less than these standard, but they can exceed these standards. 

Absence any other standards of the safety of cannons these would be a good set of rules to follow when you build your own cannon. Why, they can be defended if your cannon fails. 

Bottom line safety should not be compromised.

[dan610324]

I have seen a few different figures in antique manuscripts and books ,
it seem like they had an idea of an maximum life for an gun between 250 and 500 shots .

thats maybe interesting to know for you who use your guns a lot .

I have no idea from where they got those numbers ,
but probably by experience .

I dont know if or not its an useable figure today ,
but of course every shot will give the barrel material an chock .
for how long can it take it and when will it not do it ??
thats the million dollar question .

but for an reproduced bronze cannon to the 1 cal rule without any sleeve I guess that its the same figures today .

[Tropico]

Double D there is a re-enactment at Ft. Stevens by Astoria Oregon., its a large event., It could possibly be NSSA ? From what I understand the vendors claim its been 3 years and a rapidly growing event.  I do have photos of that event..., the wife and I just happened to go thru Ft. Stevens at the time of the event .,a coincidence.  There were at least 1000 people involved ., Anyone care to see photos I will start a thread on it. 

I just looked I already did a thread on it http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,126929.msg1098455086.html#msg1098455086

That first cannon I got ., really got me hooked ., it is a 30" old English swivel pattern with a 1.75 bore. I love that gun.,1 favorite to be sure 

[cannonmn]

Trop has questions about NSSA, might want to ask them on their official Artilery forum here:

http://n-ssa.org/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=24&sid=badef98f2bf2d9ee2e5b217c1b7b8138

That way one of their officials will probably answer it and it will no longer be a mystery.  I am not a member.  To be a member, you just join one of the local clubs or groups that happens to be a member, then you are a member.

The NSSA has regional matches and national matches.  The national is at Fort Shenandoah, operated by the NSSA.  It happens twice per year.

[guardsgunner]

With the exception of a few guys in Texas; the N-ssa is East of the Mississippi river with no event west of. There is a group called the CWSA(civil war skirmish assoc.) which operates on the west coast

37yrs. a member of the N-ssa
Bob

[Gatto_Gunmaker]

Hello everyone,

We will be seated next designs.
We put up some models to meet the rules of N-SSA. Coming soon show results.
I pay someone to translate all the details of the rules of N-SSA to build cannons and not be 100% clear some points. But nobody see that all points be clear.
Anyway, I continue manufacture of classic models of our signature, because there are many people who use these cannons and work well.
These products come to you directly, and the best price.
My product have the best relation Quality/price.
I never able to conform to all people, so now also produce models for use in events of N-SSA, especially Full Scale cannons and mortars.

Thanks
OG

[thelionspaw]

This thread is exactly why I joined. There is alot of great thought being kicked around.  One of the last things I wrote for my thread regarding my 15th century style breechblock Falcon 2 pdr is that I intend to scale it down with a seamless 3/8 liner to turn it into a golf ball Serpentine. I hope this isn't like whipping a dead horse to introduce this at this time but my cannon is like the redhead at the family reunion as far as the rules are concerned.  What about my breech?  My piece is an open tube.

Richard the Red Head