What was the provocation ?

[woodchukhntr]

Muslims hate Israel because they follow their god, and it is not the God of Jews and Christians.  They hate the very existence of Israel and Jews.  Israel is to be wiped off the map and all Jews in it either driven out or killed.  After that, they will increase their hateful war against the west.  Why doesn't the world understand that it isn't about Islam and Israel, it is about Islam and everybody else.  They can't take everybody on at once so Israel; the smallest, closest, and most hated, gets their attention first.  The rest is just a prelude of what is to come.  The Muslims do believe in land for peace, but it is total.  They will not be satisfied until they have all land.

As far as Obama,  if not a "sleeper" Muslim, I don't know what he is.  When was the last time Muslims supported a Christian?

[ironglow]

  There are Muslims supporting Obama..Hamas last week and otheres this week..

   Again, in case you missed it, do a Google search for   <  muslim americans for obama video  >

   You can also go to   youtube.com  and search for , ...   muslim americans for obama   .. lots of other interesting videos
   on the subject there also...

[SDS-GEN]

As the map shows clearly Israel is a huge threat to the muslim world, and depletes a huge amount of resources in that area.  As I see it the Israelis got a small chunk of ground and made something of it, this made the muslims jealous, so some of them decided to take what Israel created.  Happily muslims hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel and haven't ever built up a serious force to fight with.  Just my opinion and the opinion of a few jews I know.

[woodchukhntr]

As the map shows clearly Israel is a huge threat to the muslim world, and depletes a huge amount of resources in that area.  As I see it the Israelis got a small chunk of ground and made something of it, this made the muslims jealous, so some of them decided to take what Israel created.  Happily muslims hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel and haven't ever built up a serious force to fight with.  Just my opinion and the opinion of a few jews I know.

Muslims aren't jealous of the achievements of Israelis, they hate them because they are Jewish, the sons of the promise.  They hated them from the beginning.  When they took over the previously Israel occupied territories, they destroyed anything of value.  I recall seeing an agricultural research greenhouse that was trashed.  Could they have used it to help feed their people?  Of course they could have, but they preferred to destroy it because it was made by the Jews.  Everything that they touch is trashed, their god is not a god of peace and order, he is a god of death and destruction!

[SHOOTALL]

TM-7 we all only go so far with the right to bear arms ,

[powderman]

The map wouldn't load for me. POWDERMAN.

[ironglow]

  TM7;
  How do I account for Obama's popularity..remember how the left thought Dukakis was so great ? Perhaps you remember when George McGovern ran for pres !

   Incidently, McGovern was the "straw that broke the camel's back" for me..I left the Democrats and went independent. Anyway, the young college students..the ones
   that thought they knew everything..and actually knew next to nothing..fell head over heels for McGovern. The media carried him on their figurative shoulders, as far as
   they could, but voting public didn't fall for the "hooplah".. McGovern couldn't even carry his home state of Minnesota ! See the RED/BLUE map below..the result of Nixon
    hammering McGovern..
    TM; I am pleased to see you in your reply to GB, that you prefer the  two extremely socialist, liberal senators over McCain..your admission is duly noted !

      Powderman, that map posted by SDS-GEN did not load for you, perhaps the following one will..SDS pointed out that the Islamic countries have such hatred and envy
      of Israel...that they like to pretend that "big, bad Israel "has selfishly..claimed all their land..
           The real difference is that Israel has a God that doesn't tell them to kill all non-Jews..so they took that tiny sliver of land..and without the oil..have produced more
      technical goods, medical breakthroughs, more agricultural advancements, weapons development (necessity) and works of pure science than all the surrounding Islamic
      countries.
   The hatred started about 4,000 years ago..when Isaac was recognized as the rightful heir and the illegitimate Ishmael was "cut out of the will"..and that hatred has continued
  to this day..a hatred so strong, they pursue primitive war, instead of science, medicine, agriculture etc..

   On the map ..the green countries are Islamic, the tiny  red sliver is Israel..and the map doesn't even cover the countries like Libya and Morocco to the left, Pakistan to the
   right and more Muslim lands south of Ethiopia...

[billy_56081]

Very good post IG. I'm sure some of our antisemitic posters here do not like when facts are presented about the origins of Islam and its cancer on the world, but the truth is the truth. No matter how they try to change the subject or cast doubt on history, it still remains a fact. I agree it was nice to see TM7 finally show his true leanings. For once he gave a straight answer on his socialist leanings.

[deltecs]

For those who believe in the governments complicity in regard to 9/11 and wholeheartedly support Ron Paul, read his own words below.

by Ron Paul, Dr.  
Last week ended with a flurry of news stories alleging that the Bush administration had advance knowledge of the September 11th terrorist attacks. The President’s political opponents wasted little time in seizing the opportunity to accuse him of a coverup, implying that he allowed the terrible events of that day to happen through inaction. Most Americans rightfully dismiss these accusations and recognize them as partisan opportunism, knowing that President Bush would never willfully allow such a tragedy to take place if he could have prevented it. We need to raise the tenor of the debate in Washington and place national security interests before party interests.

Clearly the President did not know anything about particular dates, or that hijacked planes would be used as missiles and flown into buildings. In fact, it appears that many of the terrorists themselves did not know the true nature of their mission until the planes were in the air. The administration did know that Bin Laden rabidly hated the U.S., and that Al Qaida had threatened terrorist action, but this vague and generalized information could have applied to dozens of terrorist organizations. What exactly would we have the President do with this knowledge? Do we really think he should he have shut down the nation’s air travel system and caused widespread panic? Had he done so, the same politicians criticizing him now would have accused him of overreacting. Hindsight gives us easy wisdom now, but our focus should be on preventing terrorism in the future. We should take the present opportunity not to criticize the President, but rather to take a hard look at both our intelligence practices and our foreign policy.

It is perfectly reasonable to question the failure of our federal intelligence community to detect and prevent the September 11 attacks. We should remember that the most of our knowledge about the Al Qaida threat was gathered, or should have been gathered, by the Clinton CIA. Both the CIA and the FBI knew Bin Laden was active during the 1990s, particularly after our bombing of his facilities in Sudan and Afghanistan in 1998. Yet despite the $40 billion annual intelligence budget, our convoluted system of intelligence gathering has not made us more secure.

Since September 11th we have heard predictable calls for vastly increasing the budgets of those agencies charged with intelligence gathering- including the CIA, FBI, ATF, INS, DIA, and NSA- but perhaps those agencies need to consolidate rather than expand their efforts. The current system involves too many bureaucrats, too much overlap, too many turf battles, too little information sharing, and no clear accountability. Why do we insist on perpetuating failed agencies and policies, throwing more and more money at problems that stem from bureaucratic culture rather than funding problems? Why do we think $60 or $80 billion will change what $40 billion could not?

The finger-pointing blame game also obscures the deeper problem of our interventionist foreign policy. If we are serious about preventing future terrorist attacks, we must have the character to honestly examine our own role in creating enemies around the world. This does not mean we can ever excuse terrorism, or that we should not retaliate against those responsible for September 11th. It does mean, however, that we must critically reexamine our policy of stationing hundreds of thousands of troops abroad while our own borders and skies remain unprotected.

I cannot disagree with his evaluation or conclusions.  We must secure our borders, must retaliate against terrorism in any form, be reluctance in using military intervention in foreign policy, and upgrade our intelligence agencies for accurate and complete info.  Even the reputable Dr. Paul states that the idea of government conspriracy in 9/11 is ridiculous and aims the blame at Muslim religious extremists.  As a constructionist interpreter of the Constitution, Dr. Paul is adamant that the citizens ownership and possession of firearms, is the best scenario for homeland security and foremost as the basis for any security, anywhere.  So why then, would anyone who supports his positions, then relate they would vote for anyone who differs so drastically from Dr. Paul's principles on firearms issues, as compared to one who does support some of them?  It must be from personal hatred or extreme dislike of our current Presidential policies by thinking emotionally with attempts to justify the big picture and confuse reality, instead of thinking logically.

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. Thanks again. Yes, tm will vote for whichever dumcrap gets the nomination, he has the same non values. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

    Click into     www.foxnews.com/wires/2008May15/0,4670,YoungObama,00.html  l   

    It is a story about Barak Hussein Obama's college days at "Oxy"..Occidental college,
   where his closest buddies had names like:
 
  1) Imad Husain

  2) Sohale Siddiqi

 3) Mohammad Hasan Chanaloo

 4)Wahid Hamid

   ...And surprise, they came from places like Pakistan and other Islamic countries...Now, why would a Catholic guy
    (Supposedly converted years earlier), hang around with Muslim guys..who may be dangerous to an "apostate" Muslim ?

[woodchukhntr]

Yes, why indeed?  I know, he was trying to get them all to convert, good Christian that he is!

[woodchukhntr]

TM&,

Why don't you give us a translation guide to the words (?) that you are using:  Neocon zionist, zio neocon, zioarmageddonite hyjackers?  I detect a hint of racial hatred in your rantings if those words(?) mean what I think.

[powderman]

TM&,

Why don't you give us a translation guide to the words (?) that you are using:  Neocon zionist, zio neocon, zioarmageddonite hyjackers?  I detect a hint of racial hatred in your rantings if those words(?) mean what I think.

tm loves them $10 words. I have no idea what a neocon is but he says I'm one. A neocon zionist I believe means folks who love the Lord and support Israel. YEP, he's mighty proud of them big words. I reckon he thinks big fancy words denote intelligence, they don't.  POWDERMAN. 

[woodchukhntr]

I must be one too!  Maybe we can get together and start a club.  I don't agree about those being $10 words though, I don't think that they are worth $0.01, actually they are worth nothing, just like his views.  If people like him get in power, here comes another holocaust, and it won't be just for Jews!

[rex6666]

I have heard and read that a Muslim can not convert to Christianity under penalty of death.
We have a man that SAYS he has converted, yet he is still friends with Muslim leaders, and wants to visit them all, as president of the U.S.A
Maybe his change and hope for America is
"Change" to Islam
"Hope" we don't have to kill you to make it happen
This guy is scary and his wife is no better

[dukkillr]

Actually I don't think so.  I think it is a discussion and examination that MUST be done instead of blind acceptance of radical right wing war advocates that have made another country their leading loyalty and placed America in the backseat or secondary...an alliance made in hell.  If you want to see some pretty racist xenophobic examples of posts look at post #43 or 47 on this thread, or anything PM, Billy, or IG often posts, including those gems launched in criticism of me just because I dare to question the neocon policy they effuse constantly....a policy having little benefit for us Americans and which is driving americans into the hands of the dems and bankruptcy; and is guaged at corrupting any discussion of the issues at hand...their only method because their arguments hold little water and mostly mud.

Now don't get me wrong, I still think more of the stuff you post is crazy... but this part isn't. 

[rex6666]

I really can't say if i believe what TM says because he talks more like a politician or lawyer, and seems to try and cloud the issues.
This is not an attack on TM it is just the way i see it and i am sure i am not the only one. This was a pretty straight forward post at one time.

[dukkillr]

I really can't say if i believe what TM says because he talks more like a politician or lawyer, and seems to try and cloud the issues.
This is not an attack on TM it is just the way i see it and i am sure i am not the only one. This was a pretty straight forward post at one time.

He seems to think big and/or fictional words will lend greater credibility to his argument.  I don't know why he thinks that.  I AM a lawyer, and I can promise you he doesn't speak like one.

[rex6666]

Dukkillr didn't mean to get mixed up with TM7
I can handle most $.50 words and some $1.00 words
but he can come up with some words that i don't think you can put a price on, guess that makes him smart.

[gypsyman]

I actually envy TM7. He's either retired, or so filthy rich, he doesn't need a real job. I for one don't have the time or the patience to look up every link he attach's to some of his posts, let alone have the time to research all of them.  gypsyman

[myronman3]

As for wordsmithing,,,,, can't help it and ain't changing, and kinda enjoy it because it is part of conveying ideas. Talking down is just dumb and often the talker does that because he thinks the listener is dumb.

wow.  pretty nice of you.  a big thumbs up to you.
 

I don't think anybody here is dumb.

unfortunately, i cant agree with that part.  but it was nice of you to say.

[AtlLaw]

Whew..!  I was almost confused with being a lawyer,,close call... .

HEY!!!   

Never, never would I be allowed into the fraternal ranks of lawyerdom not being part of The Party or buying whole hogg into the system.

Yeah, right...  and I'm such a conformist...