500 S&W Project

[morganp]

I have lurked here a while and have learned a lot about H&R Handi-rifles. I wanted to find a deer rifle for hunting here in Indiana. So I bought a new Handi in 500 S&W, reduced the trigger pull using the method found here, and found a man, Ross Shuler, who made me a custom muzzle brake for $34.95 shipped, and installed a recoil pad. Now I am in uncharted territory trying to come up with a load using Hornaday SST saboted bullets in the 500 S&W case. The reason is that I cannot find a commercially manufactured bullet with a decent ballistic coefficient in 50 caliber. I thought I would post a few pictures of my progress so far. The rounds are: A 350 gr plated, a 300 gr Hornaday SST with factory  sabot, one with the black MMP sabot, and another that I trimmed the exposed plastic from the sabot.







I am waiting for a chronograph to arrive before I can tweak the saboted loads. Does anyone know how fast I can push a MMP sabot? They are the black ones recommended for the Savage M110, a muzzloader that uses smokeless powder. I am using 23 gr of Powerpistol powder due to the capacity of the case when using the sabot.
 
I appreciate all the info that I have gleaned here. Thank you.

[quickdtoo]

Welcome aboard! Have you considered the 385gr Rem CL Ultra bonded? That's one of my next for fun projects.   I thought about saboted rounds, but my thinking is the shallow rifling in the 500 Handi might not do well with sabots at any velocity where they'd be effective, I think they'd just strip when pushed hard. The other issue is the amount of powder space used by the sabot. But it will be interesting to see your results. 

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,131576.msg1098490701.html#msg1098490701

[morganp]

The information you provided is appreciated very much! I will order a box of Remington bullets since you were kind enough to work out the BC for them.

[WILD_WEASEL]

Hello,

Just the other day I bought the "Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook, Third Addition, 2004" in Canada of all places, but that is another story.  It had reloading data along with a feature article in front on the .500 S&W.  Also, the Speer #14 Reloading Manual has more up to date data for the .500.  If I ever have an extra $1,200.00 laying around 8" .460 S&W looks interesting to me.  It is funny that the 454 Casul (sp) is considered a reduced load in the X-frames.

Enjoy,

[oneshotonekill]

I've toyed with the idea of saboted SST's out of my 500.  I was going to glue sub-bases to the sabots and load with unique due to the reduced case capacity with sub-base and sabot.  I never got around to trying it though.  I don't think the shallow rifling will be too much of an issue as most inlines have pretty shallow rifling.  I think the biggest issue will be sabot deformation or burn through.  I've seen reports of guys with smokeless ML barrels getting 2600 out of a SST in a MMP sabot with sub-base.  Once those folks got around 2100 they had problems with sabots so they needed the sub base to acheive any accuracy at the higher velocities.  Look around on some of the smokeless ML sites and you will probably get an idea of what the sabots will hold up to.

[guns-o-fun]

Like that muzzle break!  I just bought a 500 S&W handi rifle and would like to start loading for it.  The factory ammo prices are OUTRAGEOUS!   I would really like to know what kind of chamber pressures the handi frame can tolerate.  I did a search on GBO, but can't seem to find this particular info.  Am I just looking in the wrong place?

Rich

[Smoke Wagon]

Nice muzzle break. Does it reduce recoil and muzzle jump? if so how much. If it works I would be interested in getting one for my 500. Great looking package.

[quickdtoo]

I would really like to know what kind of chamber pressures the handi frame can tolerate.  I did a search on GBO, but can't seem to find this particular info.  Am I just looking in the wrong place?

Rich

Welcome aboard Rich! Basically, a case head size and pressure equal to that of the 270 Win(.470" @ 65kpsi) is about the max, larger case head and the pressure needs to be less, the 500S&W has a .526" case head, SAAMI max pressure is 60kpsi, but actual operating pressures are about 52kpsi, if shot a lot, they can set the underlug back, which pretty much is the weak joint in the action since it has a cut out for the extractor groove. The action has some flex in it at the latch pin, it isn't supported all the way to the sides of the latch and some flex will likely occur there with max high pressure loads. In a nutshell, current production SB2 frames can handle loads more intense than those chambered in a Contender, but less than some of the heavier chamberings available in the Encore such as any of the mag rifle chamberings.

Tim

[guns-o-fun]

Thanks for the info.  I had heard some stories about the action loosening up under high pressure loads.  I will probably do some "accurizing" on the handi, which may include stabilizing the under plug to reduce rotational forces - but it looks like I will be keeping any loads down at moderate pressures.  A quick look suggests that there are plenty in the 30K-40K range.  After all, I am not taking on grizzlies, just your average whitetail.  I wanted a gun that would put one down quickly at the edge of my property.  This should fit the bill.  Thanks again.

Rich

underlug not under plug - a mind is a terrible thing to waste; too bad we get old and brain-wasted!

[quickdtoo]

Be sure to check out the FAQs and Help sticky, there's a ton of info in there including an underlug improvement that can be done by anyone at home that will hold up to 300WSM loads, unfortunately, the action itself is just too flexible. 

Tim

[Slufoot]

Hello morganp, I've got a 500 S&W Handi-Rifle and a Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader.
A couple of things you might want to consider about using sabots in your 500, first is the bore diameter. The 500 S&W barrel is bored at about .493" and then rifled so that it will accept a .500" bullet, most .50 caliber muzzleloaders are bored .500" and then rifled to about a .508" groove diameter. There is no set standard for muzzleloader barrels, but this is the general rule. I have tried several different sabots, even the 3-petal EZ-load MMP and I havent been able to get any down the barrel of my 500 S&W.
Since you will be loading these from the breech this may not be a problem.
The other consideration I thought of is the muzzle brake. I would be very surprised if the sabots pass by without leaving plastic deposits in the holes. I don't think this will help accuracy with sabots as they should have a clean brake (no pun intended) from the bullet as soon as they depart from the muzzle.
I have been shooting the Remington 385 grain Ultra Bonded Core-Lokt bullets that Tim mentioned and with 38 (thirty eight) grains of Lil'Gun, Starline brass and Winchester Large Rifle primers my chronoraph results is right at 2000 fps from my Handi-Rifle's 22" barrel. This is the starting load from my 2006 Hodgdon Annual Manual. Accuracy from my gun is 1.5" three shot groups at 100 yards, plenty good for deer hunting at the ranges I will use this gun.

Please give us a range report after you test your loads!

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[NFG]

Who and where do I find Mr. Ross Shuler?  That is a killer price for a muzzle brake.  Did you install it or did he?  Prices.  I've been getting my brakes from Harrells Precision...30 bucks...but he doesn't have any for the really large diameter, over .750 so I've been making my own...much easier and faster to purchase, tho'.

I have brakes on most of my large calibers and they do reduce felt recoil about 50% depending on caliber and hole amount and arrangment and muzzle jump depending on where the holes are and how they are arranged.  They sound more noisy because the sound and gas pulses are directed to the side rather than forward.  You get a puff of gas pressure that can be startling if you're not expecting it...not hurtful...just not expected.

Makes a ton of difference if you are shooting a light weight, large caliber, heavy bullet shooter.  My 416 Taylor, 400 gr bullet at 2400 f/s,  just like the old Rigbys, feels like a heavy bullet out of an '06.
It should tame the recoil of a fly weight NEF in any large cal, heavy bullet barrel.

'Njoy

[R.W.Dale]

 I might be mistaken but aren't there some VERY specific dangers in shooting sabots through a brake

[morganp]

Who and where do I find Mr. Ross Shuler?  That is a killer price for a muzzle brake.  Did you install it or did he?  Prices.  I've been getting my brakes from Harrells Precision...30 bucks...but he doesn't have any for the really large diameter, over .750 so I've been making my own...much easier and faster to purchase, tho'.

I have brakes on most of my large calibers and they do reduce felt recoil about 50% depending on caliber and hole amount and arrangment and muzzle jump depending on where the holes are and how they are arranged.  They sound more noisy because the sound and gas pulses are directed to the side rather than forward.  You get a puff of gas pressure that can be startling if you're not expecting it...not hurtful...just not expected.

Makes a ton of difference if you are shooting a light weight, large caliber, heavy bullet shooter.  My 416 Taylor, 400 gr bullet at 2400 f/s,  just like the old Rigbys, feels like a heavy bullet out of an '06.
It should tame the recoil of a fly weight NEF in any large cal, heavy bullet barrel.

'Njoy

The way I found Ross was searching on Ebay for "Muzzle Brake", he has his email on his listing. If you include "encore" in the search field it will bring up only his listing. Ross quoted me a price of $60 (plus return shipping) to make and install the brake. I have access to a lathe so I just bought the brake. The cool thing is how Ross worked with me to make the brake exactly the way I wanted it. After we came up with what I wanted, he emailed me back a little over an hour later saying it was done and in the mail. I couldn't buy a piece of stainless for the price he made it besides the fact I have no way to index the holes. The Ebay listing has a picture of several styles. I opted for stainless but he also makes them out of chrome-moly steel.

I too have reservations about using the brake when firing sabots, it is a simple task to unscrew it from the muzzle. and I think I will ask Ross to make me a cap to cover the threads. I also read where special precautions must be taken when firing sabots through the chronograph.

Sorry about the delay in answering, I spent the weekend parkerizing several guns in the garage. I was very happy with the results.

As far as ammo for the 500 S&W, factory made does cost a arm and a leg but I lucked out. My little brother had a box with 500 pieces of brass in the back of his gun store that he gave me along with a brand new 3x9 Burris scope w/ the Ballisticplex reticle that had a drop of oil inside on one of the lenses. Since it was brand new, I sent it in for repair and expect it back any time. His store is closer to my front door than my mailbox so I have a few perks. It wasn't really charity, I watch the store for him when no one else is available.

[Smoke Wagon]

I found Mr. Schuler's e-mail address on the above mentioned site it is rem40xb1@msn.com . If this anyway violates the rules of this forum, I apologize and will not be upset in it's removal.

I just emailed Mr. Schuler and requested pricing for a brake for my .500 along with a protective cap, and the details. I will post his response if it is allowed.

[quickdtoo]

Looks fine to me. 

Tim

[NFG]

Thanks for the location.  I've made a few brakes, but my cheap spin index just won't hold close enough tolerance, slips at the wrong time, or I mess up.  I need to stop messing around and get a decent rotary table and quit whining about it, but I keep spending my money on gunstuff....

'Njoy

[Smoke Wagon]

Well I just got back to my computer and found his reply. Below is the entire e-mail. Hope it helps..


Hi Chuck
             I can make you a brake and a cap for $30.00. I do not remember if I threaded the other barrel or if I can. I will need to know the length of the barrel and a picture if possible. If I can thread it the cost is $30.00.  Total 60.00 Plus return shipping  Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Pattison
To: rem40xb1@msn.com
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 8:35 AM
Subject: Muzzle Brake


Mr. Schuler, I saw a muzzle brake you built for a gentleman on Graybeard Outdoors Forum, for a NEF Handi – Rifle chambered in .500 S&W. I also have one of these rifles. I was wondering if you could make another one and how much it would cost. Also the price of a cap to cover the threads when the brake was removed, and if you could cut the threads on the barrel or would I have to have a local gunsmith do it. Thank you for your time concerning this matter.

 

 

Sincerely,

Chuck Pattison

Okeechobee, Florida

[morganp]

I emailed Ross about the cost of making a protective cap and he replied "Your cap is made and will ship in the morning--No charge" in his return email.

Now I don't care who you are, that is customer service!

[morganp]

The thread protector cap came in Thursday from Ross Schuler, looks and fits good. The Burris Scope was delivered this morning via UPS from the repair department.  Looks like I will be able to try a few  500 S&W loads through the chrono tomorrow to see how the sabots shoot. But after quickdtoo turned me on to the 385 gr. Remington bullets, the saboted bullets don't look as appealing as they did. Oh well since I have come this far might as well see what happens. Is the factory H&R scope base steel or aluminum?

[quickdtoo]

Is the factory H&R scope base steel or aluminum?

Aluminum, the only steel bases are made by Warne, there are links and pics in the FAQs.

Tim

[Smoke Wagon]

Sorry for the delay, Have been away from the computer. I heard back from Mr. Schuler. He stated that he needs 22 inches in front of the lug to be able to thread them. Hope this helps.

[ken-wv.]

great looking gun and set up. dose anyone know if a sabot can get caught inside of brake and block exit of next round?

[Ireload2]

>>>anyone know if a sabot can get caught inside of brake and block exit of next round?<<<
I will offer this observation.
Millions of rounds of shotguns shells with plastic wads are fired through vented and ported barrels and chokes each year.

The main concern I would have is for bystanders.  Right after the ported Marlin Guide Guns came out a friend bought one in .450 Marlin and I watched him shoot it a few times. I stood well back and to the right, probably 4 feet behind him and 4 feet to his right as he fired it off a bench.
I got hit on the cheek right under my left eye by something that stung like a wasp. It did not break the skin but it would have surely  injured an eye.  I wear glasses but if my head had been turned the particle could have got my eye anyway since I was not shooting.

[morganp]

Finally had the chance to try out the muzzle brake. I was shooting a heavier load than the first time I tried it (42.5 gr of 296 instead of 40 gr). Recoil was reduced considerably but I also had put a pound of lead in the butt stock. The 350 gr plated bullets flew downrange at speeds between 1841 and 1879 fps and accuracy (for me) was good with 9 shots in a 3 inch circle with the exception of a single flyer. All of the saboted 300 gr SST bullets left the barrel at around 1640 fps and accuracy was fair. There was no plastic residue in the brake after firing the saboted bullets through it. I learned that the muzzle blast will clear the shooting bench of loose paper but I can tell no difference in the sound level with or without the brake.

Don't get me wrong, the rifle still kicks but last time my shoulder was sore for two days. This time I felt no pain at all. Even though I had the Leupold scope rings tight the scope worked its was forward. I returned the scope to its original position and torqued the screws down tighter than I had before. Also the hammer extension worked loose hitting the scope, resulting in a misfire. There is hardly any clearance between the scope and hammer, I think I will get a set of medium rings.

 I think I will forget about the sabots and go with .50 caliber bullets. I believe it will make a fine deer rifle. I am well pleased with the muzzle brake made by Mr. Schuler and, after looking at other prices, feel that it was quite a value.

[STUMPJMPR]

I had the same problem with my scopes sliding in the rings...I ended up adding a 3rd scope ring to the equation it helped....I think  a set of quality steel rings properly lapped so that you achieve more surface contact would be the best fix to that problem...On my 500 i took the scope of and have it zeroed at 50 it shoots about 2" off the bench...

[striker525]

I had the same problem with my scopes sliding in the rings...I ended up adding a 3rd scope ring to the equation it helped....I think  a set of quality steel rings properly lapped so that you achieve more surface contact would be the best fix to that problem...On my 500 i took the scope of and have it zeroed at 50 it shoots about 2" off the bench...

This can be cured by using rings that have the Teflon inserts in them. I will use them and or have been know to put a round or two of Teflon tape around my scope where the rings will touch the scope.

[quickdtoo]

I have a Nikon Prostaff 2-7x32 Shotgun scope mounted in lapped low Leupold PRWs on my 500, the scope has never moved with max loads of lil'gun under 350gr, 440gr and 700gr bullets.

Tim

[STUMPJMPR]

I bet the guy on the back was doing some moving with max loads lol....I was shooting my 500 and 12ga slug gun at the range and some guys had to come over and see what was rocking me back so far...those 2 guns don't get shot often just for sighting in....