flat nosed 9 mm..

[slim rem 7]

  my experiments with my .380 have caused me to believe,he flat nosed  to have the best
 knock dn. ability along with better penetration..not talkin a wad cutter,, just standard winchester flatnosed .380 ammo.. so far it performed more uniformly and with much better penetration than the many protection rds ive tried .[ the dpx 80 grn is still my choice of the high dollar protection rds in the keltec] but i like the flat nosed results better..
   now im looking for the same in 9 mm for my sig..a flat nosed high powered
 standard rd..++ is alright here as its a p225 sig..standard rd is fine tho..
 i want to do some test .. thanks

[S.S.]

test them well in your gun, only one of my 9mm's like them,
others jam with them on a regular basis.
The flat point edge on the truncated cone FMJ sticks to any copper fouling
on the feed ramp.

[slim rem 7]

 hadn t even thought of that .. the keltec shoots it well enough to be my practice[cheap] rnd..

[powhs]

I love the flat nosed 380 bullets. They shoot very well in my colt and keltec. Been looking for a 115 or 125 grain flat nose load for my 9mm khar.

[SharonAnne]

I shoot 125gr truncated cones .355" in my 9x23 and they feed perfectly. however, for defensive ammo I load 125 jhp silvertips. same for the 9mmP except 115gr silvertip jhp.

[SharonAnne]

BTW, there is no such thing as 'knock down power' in a pistol

[slim rem 7]

  sharon what you said seems to be the accepted.. i agree if we are talking big game type hits to lung ,heart area..ive been experimenting with,head face neck area shots and find that to be as easy as the torso hit.. its caused me to change my approach as it s my opinion the face hit is going to have more disorentating affect than  non heart chest shots.. on average of course..i here even 45s are not dependable stoppers..
 can t agree .. that shot in the face at mugger distance ,,you will be stopped ..
 thats my opinion .. my 380 while not the 45 will in most cases do the same thing .. render the attacker much less a offensive threat,and im not quitting with one shot..
 now you do have to be able to make the shot from 2 to15 ft consistantly before you even consider this tactic..for me the face is like an big sign ,an the shot comes natural..
  my favorite practice is an grove of small gum trees that came up after housing development..i pull and  shoot from one knee ,stumbling ,prone, and every other position i can think of..
  to be honest this and other forums are what made me decide to change ..
 all this stuff about the big handguns not being an sure stop ,was a surprize to me..
 so i started trying to figure an way to make the stop more sure if i could..
 too some this would be totally wrong ,,to me it came as natural as water running dn hill.

[SharonAnne]

there is s big difference between a 'stop' and a 'knock down'.  The first is the desired effect and the latter a simple matter of physics.

[Savage]

Slim,
Sure would like to see a video of you shooting gum trees from various unnatural positions!
Savage

[slim rem 7]

  ive yet to ever post even a pic on the internet..i think i could as my wife
 could mabe get one with hers ,,i dont know.. she has all the family on her computer..
  as to a tape .. just picture an security uniformed guy who looks like he s gone a little nuts in the woods..i do it after i get off of graveyd shift..its no worse than my favorite way to stay in top condition .. for yrs i danced to fast old rock music for usually 30 minutes at a time.recently  health put a slowdownn on me but,im coming back now and
 can do 15 min high heartbeat excersize  dancing or 5 strait min on the heavy bag..
  im working on the tree shooting as its an natural quick pull an shoot practice..
  its my hope to get it mastered so i never look at the gun sight ..only the target..
  this at mugger distance..i got there with my berreta 22 but that was shooting a couple hundred a day..not so easy now with .380 ammo..my goal is to shoot using the same principle as an pitcher throwing a fast ball. no aiming in the traditional sense.. i know i can perfect this method as it s how i shot my 22s .. but the .380 requires ,avoiding limpwristing..so it doesn t feel as natural yet with the .380...,
 its coming around tho..if i get where i want to be with this method.. i ll see if i can t get someone with an camcorder to tape it..as i would like to have a copy so i can say i once could do this,,to my grandkids .although thats getting close to out an out bragging ,,something i don t care to be known for..
ps  theres no such thing as knock down power from an pistol.sharon .ive read that here an other places also..if you choose to believe that ,,fine.. to me that concept is totally rediculouse..an large cal.. handgun  can make an torso hit and not knock the human target dn...but i can take you to my range and show you men that can use thier choice of weapon to make  one shot knockdown ,instant kills..now to find some people willing to be the targets at say 5 to 25 yds.. again rediculouse so the concept is not worth consideration as far as im concerned..no offence intended as ive read that also..i believe quite the opposite to be true ,,especially if the gun is in the right mans hands..but each of us ,thank god still have the right to believe what we choose,,an aint it great..

[SharonAnne]

slim, what you are advocating is 'point shooting'.  If it was faster and more accurate than using sights then the top action pistol shooters would be using it. Since NONE use it, after years of trying everything that can be thought of, I think they have demonstrated that it does not work. These are shooters who count the .45s and .38 supers in the MILLIONS of rounds each has fired. However, when you reach the point of putting your video on the net I will be happy to view it.

I have read of people like you. They do something alone on the range and deem themselves proficient. But none will put to the test in competition because that is not 'real' combat. If you can't do it in front of a crowd, on a timer, you can't do it. So, go to a USPSA match, sign up, and show us what ya got.  I am confident that compared to the best in USPSA or ICORE, ya ain't got much.

[Savage]

SharonAnne,
What are you saying girl!  Didn't you know that was the Rob's secret training regiment?  Don't know how it leaked out---------- Wasn't me!!!
Savage

[SharonAnne]

methinks the 'legend in his own mind' syndrome strikes again.  Oh, I forgot. He can't enter a USPSA match. The .380 is too small. The lowest power factor is 125,000. It takes at least a 9mmP or .38sp to make that much power.

When you have no basis for comparison it is easy to think you are pretty good. Try this. The old Steel Challenge stage called Double Trouble. There are 2-12" steel plates one above the other. Bottom at 3' high, top at 5' and 10 yd down range. Start in surrender position (hands above shoulders for the Politically Cowardly). Using an electronic timer, at the beep, draw,shoot the bottom plate once, then the top plate once. If you cannot do that in 1.2 seconds don't bother showing up. Brian Enos has done it in 0.89 seconds. Yes, the SECOND shot was at 0.89 seconds from the start signal. My fastest EVER first shot was 0.87 seconds. My average then was 1.2 seconds. I cannot come close to that now.

So Pistoleros and Pistoleras, still think you are fast???

[AtlLaw]

So Pistoleros and Pistoleras, still think you are fast???

Help me out here.  My memory ain't what it never was...    In what amount of time did old Bill Jordan say the practiced shooter should be able to draw and get off an aimed shot?  Half a second maybe? 

Interesting, but my pistlero days have been over a long time.     Oh!  but I remember never shoot head shots, always center of mass, and continue shooting until the aggressive action stops.  

[Savage]

Love the Steel Challenge!! "Smoke and Hope" is my favorite stage. I'm not fast, I'm happy with a 4 second run with a street holster from surrender. You'd have to nail it under 2 seconds each string to be competitive. I shoot the SC every month, get beat every time! Still love it anyway!!
Savage

[slim rem 7]

  ok .. i get the message you folk just don t believe in me .. im lieing about shooting
trees cause i won t post a video.. nothing like the chat line gossips.. never got on one in my life,, cause i never seen them be anything but gossip sights..yep thats where you came from,, unless i miss my guess..
  soon as it hits me how much i should care what you two think i ll post a video
 even if it cost money..until then i ll just endure  .. savage you a lot younger than me im thinking and south carolina aint that far ..i could probably understand what you mean
if you explained it to my face. ive sure learned a lot from other experienced shooters  ..you two turned an discussion into an put dn..
 i live new london n.c.im movin right now but id make time if you want to visit..
 we probably turn out to be good friends.. we ll have a cool  place to talk an such as my new place has a lotta woods behind it... yall have a good night now,,you to sharon..
   

[Savage]

Slim,
Now don't go getting your skivies in a wad! You gotta admit, that would be one funny video!! And thanks for the complement about my age. It's nice to think I'm younger than someone on this board!!
Savage

[slim rem 7]

 let me appologise now as im not showing my faith and like to think ive grown past reacting that way unless it really matters. the shooting in the woods is  just an idea im trying and seems to be helping me some..i was just passing it along, in case someone else wanted to try it..the face shot is also something im trying out as it never occurred to me that the larger calibers were not pretty sure kills or stoppers anyway,, until i read it here..truth is you have a plan to try and take as much thinking out of your reaction as possible..but each situation is gonna require you best reaction... what ever you think that is..

[AtlLaw]

Don't worry about it Slim, ANY practice is good practice!   

[Savage]

Slim,
No apology necessary!  I find point shooting interesting, and use a combination of point and sighted fire in the "Steel Challenge" and IDPA. If you are serious about learning point shooting, you might check out the "Fist Fire" method. D.R. shoots well enough with it to do well in the Master Class of IDPA. No way he could compete with Enos or Leatherman tho. Even with a flat point 9mm.
http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm  Go to the D.R. Middlebrook video.
Savage

[SharonAnne]

Law. yes Mr Jordan did say 1/2 second. However I recall top IPSC shooters claiming 1/2 second reloads. That disappeared with the advent of electronic timers. The fastest shot to shot I know of was Michael Voight at 0.89 seconds, shot-reload-shot.  I have no doubt Mr Jordan was amazingly fast. I have seen video of him placing a ping pong ball on the back of his hand, drawing and firing his revolver, then picking the ping pong ball from his holster. Back in the late '80s I witnessed Rob Leatham do a 0.4something draw and shoot. The fast draw guys are even faster. If you can draw and hit a 7 yd target under 1 second, consistently, you are world class. Until you put a timer on your shooting and have targets you can record hits on with a decent power pistol, you are a legend in your own mind. I put my limited skills up against the best USPSA has to offer. I am a mid "C" class shooter on a good day. At the 2000 USPSA Nationsals/Pan American Championship I scored 48.8% of the match winner. In 2004 at the USPSA Nationals, as my health declined, I scored a dismal 36.2% and was 3rd last. My point is, I put it on the line, have my times and scores on record, and until You have done that you are just talking.

[slim rem 7]

that be fine with me sharon.. sound like you been around some..
 sorry but the only one i ever came close to being legendary for is my grandaughter..
  i was fastest in high school at 100,200 and second fastest at 440..i wasn t a bad boxer but ran into some that showed me i couldn t match thier talent,so never went pro,,. no point in it[never knocked out tho].......had fun with my boys in golden gloves. the first year i raced pigeons i won nearly all the club races and 2 n.c. combine races..the reason is it takes the same training to win with them as it does to win boxing..lowest strong wt and endurance to fly the other birds into the grnd..
  as to competition with guns ,the only one i ever cared to beat was the guy who might have bad intentions to me or my family..one thing thats for sure
  somebody somewhere is better, faster, can take your punch and hit harder than you..so you gotta know how to lose without it being the end of the world.
can t afford to lose in a handgun fight..so im not gonna get in that competition
unless im forced to..im too old anyway to start that stuff that you seem well read on..
  sharon since you were honest about not thinking much of me.. i ll be honest an tell you .. i think you are a bit of an instigator and kinda hard to get along with..in other wds if i was picking a team for something ,i wouldn t pick you,,and im sure you wouldn t pick me..but it takes all kinds to make up the human race ,so i will tolerate you with the best smile i can come up with[no choice do i].. god bless you an yours.. have a good night now..

[SharonAnne]

not an instigator, just a finely tuned BS detector, and your posts set it off big time. Am I the only one who, when reading 'slim rem 7' posts, puts a cajun accent to it?

[slim rem 7]

 n. c.country, born an bred .. toleration of others and moderation in all things. ..  something you, me and every soul on the planet can benefit from .we just don t like each other but we both loved by the creator and he don t like us to be mean to his other children.. .. so big deal ..lets get on with enjoying the forum in our own way.. have a good one.. we ll agree to not prefer each other.. slim

[Cayoot]

WOW! I can't believe how quickly this thread turned hostile against someone posting a (non) offensive opinion!

Slim...Practice with whatcha got!  Trees are abundant and don't complain much when you shoot them!

I'm a firm believer in flat nose bullets also.  I hunt deer and black bear with big, flat SWCs that I cast myself.  I found out the same thing that most cast hunters learn....flat, lead bullets moving at moderate velocity kill waaaaayyyy out of proportion with what the paper calculations predict.

As far as "knock down" in a hand gun....it's a relative thing.  I've learned that a flat pointed swc will knock down a bowling pin much faster than a round nose.

As far as knock down on a person is concerned....the only..ONLY way to be sure to knock down a person with a handgun is to do one of two things (at least this is what I've learned from my research at the prison where I worked for 16 years):

1 - Shut down the power to the limbs...This is most easily done by having a bullet smash through the spinal column somewhere between the top of the brain stem and the top of the Pelvis.

2 - Knock out the foundation - That is most easily accomplished by breaking the pelvis bone.

The face (seems to me) like it would be good for "shock factor" if the perp. were clear headed enough to notice...however if the bullet does not strike above the center of the eyeball line or in the brain stem, then you may not bring him down because his mind may be clouded by anything from mental over stimulation to drugs.

The prisoners whose files I read and who I interviewed seem to overwhelmingly bear this out.

Bust the spine or the pelvic girdle.  That will bring the target down to the ground and keep him there.  Which makes your job of escaping much more simple.

To accomplish this...nothing can do better (from a hand gun) than a good heavy SWC or Flat Point bullet driven at moderately high velocity.  They tend to track straighter through the body and bust through bone as opposed to glancing off.

But after all is said and done...this is only my opinion (brought about by much research)....my opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at Burger King....nothing more.

[SharonAnne]

you can get coffee for $1? wow

[williamlayton]

My wife, the Hen, and I get mad at each other from time too time, She gets over it when she admits I am right.
Actually, we have been married 45 years and she got mad at me rat after the weddin and has not got over it yet.
 
Blessings

[S.S.]

we were trained as the mosaad in Israel was trained to shoot "over the sights".
this is basically shooting instinctively or point shooting if you will. It is highly effective
in close quarters. I know that those Steel Challenge boys are fast, but those plates are not shooting back.
Set up a paintball gun to be shooting at them as they are shooting the plates and watch their scores drop.
Some of our weapons didn't even have sights, they were ground off so as not to snag on anything.
Our A.S.P. model 39 S&Ws just had a groove cut in the top of the slide. that was more to cut down glare than as a sight though.
With proper training, some pretty interesting things can be achieved. I am blessed with my own private 100 meter range , but find myself plinking at knots on trees in my woods also. What is wrong with this?

[Mikey]

S.S.:  You had a ASP M39??  Way kewl dood!  I remember when Paris Theodore first built one of those.  I thought it was a good idea but recall it having to use a shorter than factory case?  I don't remember if SuperVel had yet come out with its 9mm hollow-points when Theodore developed that pistol/round but I have always wondered what ever became of those pistols.  Mikey.

[SharonAnne]

it is funny. If the techniques of "those Steel Challenge boys" are so inadequate,how is it that our military and law enforcement now take up ALL of the available instruction time of the likes of Jerry Barnhart, Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham and other top "Steel Challenge boys"? The reality is,their techniques ARE the best, and those techniques are saving the lives of our service men and women all over the world. If there was a better way our armed forces would be using it. If YOU have a better way, show the SEALS or Green Berets. They are always eager to find the best way to survive a fire fight.