Unspiking (attempt #4)

[Squire Robin]

The nice weather is here at last and my mind turns to the delight of shooting cannon.

You may remember I have a brace of 6 pounder Falkirks, complete with sea service carriages, down in the garage. Made around 1800, retired around 1914 and professionally spiked before going on public display.

The spiking involved forcing a spike in to the touch from the inside then ramming a metal cup in to the breech to secure it.

I have tried dissolving out the rust, drilling through it and blowing it out hydraulically. Attempt #4 is a straight pull.

Of course this could make things 10 times worse, I might end up with a despiking tool as a permanent feature but, what the heck.

 Here's attempt # 4 despiking tool apart...



and together an a piece of 1" studding that does the pulling bit...



This gets pushed down in to the tapered centre of the spike until it jams in. Hopefully it won't want to pull out too easily, so the aluminum collar expands on the 5 degree steel taper and fetches the whole lot out.

I am now in the sitting looking at it phase of the operation. Disappointment postponed, thinking about it 

[cannonmn]

I just unspiked a Manby mortar.  It had some kind of hardened steel spike that immediately ruined any ordinary drill bit, and resisted die grinders pretty well too.  I used a long 1/8 in. solid carbide drill bit and it got the job done in about 20 min.  These bits are brittle and you have to drill so they don't get either bending or excessive vibration or they break like glass, but they are very hard and I think would cut thru most anything used for spiking "back when." 

I still have to unspike a 24 pounder flank howitzer so I'll have another such job to report on after I try that.  I had to research the proper vent angle for that one, which turns out to be about 7 degrees from the vertical with respect to the outside of the gun (drill at 83 degrees, not 90.)

[cannonmn]

It took me a minute to realize that your device's purpose is to pull out the metal cup from the bore, and has nothing to do with the spike that's in the vent, other than that removing the cup should release the spike?

[dan610324]

please lets have a look at the gun

[Squire Robin]

I did think about carbide but no way could I get half a ton of iron up on to the mill or half a ton of mill down on to the cannon.

My drilling was by spark erosion but it was heavy on the electrodes and then I started to worry about going off course, so I stopped.

The version 4 despiking irons are now in place, grease on all the bits I want to move and loctite everywhere else.

Should be ready to pull by this evening

[Squire Robin]

please lets have a look at the gun

Only one carriage in this pic, lots more pics if I ever get to shoot 'em

Up on blocks because the wheels are a bit fragile.

[cannonmn]

I did think about carbide but no way could I get half a ton of iron up on to the mill or half a ton of mill down on to the cannon.

I used a variable-speed electric hand-drill and it worked fine. 

[Double D]

Here some of  Robin's previous post on the subject.

Un-spiking a cannon by spark erosion

I''ve Been spiked

Cleaning an old bore by electrolysis

[dan610324]

ooohh nice carronades , are they growing on trees where you live as you got two of them ??

if so let me know when next harvest time is  

[dan610324]

just an small advice for you , knife makers use something to stabilize rotten wood as it many times is very beautiful . its some kind of epoxy . they dry the wood totally in an vacuum chamber first , then add the epoxy and pressurize it for a while . search for someone doing such work and you can maybe save and use the original carriage . it aint many original carriages in use this days   

[cannonmn]

nice carronades

Technically they are gunades, since they have trunnions.  Carronades do not have trunnions.

[dan610324]

really ??  that's good to know , as Ive always referred to them as carronades both with and without trunnions .

thanks for correcting me

[cannonmn]

Real carronades are fairly rare today.  I see at least 100 gunades for every real carronade I see.  The reason is that real carronades were almost exclusively used by navies, whereas gunades were a popular form of insurance gun carried by merchant ships.

[dan610324]

why the difference in use ??  merchant vs military ??
for me it seem that both options have the same needs .

[Squire Robin]

are they growing on trees where you live as you got two of them ??
if so let me know when next harvest time is  

How many do you want?

http://www.trinitymarine.co.uk/displayproduct.phtml?product_id=394&category_id=11cba85f3d03f67a119c4c5b979e1484

[dan610324]

well england aint that far away , they also seem to have an better soil quality .
as their harvest seem to be bigger   

[cannonmn]

Dan, that dealer has another one that seems almost reasonable in price.  I don't know what the Pound sterling is equal to now but it is easy to find out.

[dan610324]

yeah Ive looked at it

[cannonmn]

You can fire a spiked gun easily using an electric match if you have enough basic knowledge of electricity to ensure you can do it safely.  These are available from commercial fireworks suppliers, but since sometime after 9-11 have been regulated in the US anyway.  These cost about $1.00 each, or less in quantity, about same as a friction primer.  In loading the gun, you load it just like fireworks mortars are loaded, with the electric match in the charge and the two wires leading out of the bore.  The windage on a typical muzzle-loader is enough to clear the small insulated wires.  I recommend using a blast box and not a battery to fire, since the blast box (detonator, some call it) sits there with no current on the terminals until the fire button is pushed.  These days you have to be care not to do it anywhere near radio transmitters, walkie-talkies, and I'd even go so far as to keep cell phones far away.  You could also fire safely using quickmatch strung down the bore if you don't like the electric idea.  Paul Barnett fires all his line guns electrically this way when he's doing the "1812 Overture."

[Squire Robin]

Another failure. But at least I got to stand on the wrench before it shattered, must have been best part of a ton pulling power.

Think I'm going to have to cut it.

[Chilachuck]

Just picked up this from the "unread posts since last visit" link and it looked interesting.

Can you get a CO2 fire extinguisher and run the nozzle down the bore to the cup to try to freeze shrink the cup? A local ship yard does that sort of thing all the time with their bearings.

[SLEEPY BEEPER]

Arm chair advice. You have to love it. How about drilling through the center of the plug. Tapping it. And running in a threaded rod. This would stop on the back of the bore. And push the plug forward when turned?

[cannonmn]

If you can drill out enough of the spike to thread the vent and screw on a zerk fitting, you can force the cup out using a high-pressure grease gun of the type used in automobile repair shops.  This assumes the grease can get around what's left of the spike.   It takes a good bit of grease to fill the bore, but anything that's stuck and also seals the bore will come out the muzzle eventually.

[Squire Robin]

Arm chair advice. You have to love it. How about drilling through the center of the plug. Tapping it. And running in a threaded rod. This would stop on the back of the bore. And push the plug forward when turned?

Great minds think alike. I just tried asking on a metalworking site and got much the same answer

I am going to try drilling and see if there is any kind of gap behind it. At very least the rust expansion should have forced it forwards a tadge.

if there is a gap I can open it out with a hole saw, expand a collet behind it and pull. I don't think there will be enough metal to thread. It looks very well made so the thickness around the back is probably the same as the max sidewall, slightly over 1/4".

Big question is, will it drill with a 4 foot extension

[KABAR2]

Squire,

If there is a gap there how about tapping the hole adding a fitting and filling the void with grease? pump enough grease behind it and the hydraulic effect should be far greater than a pulling device, if that too fails than you could still go to the puller. I would use a silicone based spray lube on the bore so when it dose pop loose there will be less friction, and I doubt it needs being said but don't stand in front of it during the process......   

Ok I just read Cannonmn's post an I am more or less repeating what he just said only from the other end of the gun........ sometimes it doesn't pay to get up early in the morning.  I should have read a few posts back..............


Allen <><

[dan610324]

sorry if I got to come here with an stupid question , but my english skills aint good enough for me to understand everything in this discussion .

is it both an spike in the vent and something in the bore ??

[cannonmn]

Degrease the inside of bore if it has oil or grease in it now.  Hang the cannon so muzzle is pointed vertically up.  Stand cannon in a plastic storage container or wash tub to catch any liquid coming out of cannon.  Take muriatic acid diluted from concentrated so it is about a 20 percent solution and pour enough down the bore to fill about 1/4 of the bore length.  Let the acid set for about 8 hours, agitating it with a stick every couple of hours so the sludge coming off does not obstruct the acid's action.  All the rust will be dissolved and the metal of the cannon should not be harmed.  Be sure when diluting to add acid into the water and not other way around.  Wear goggles, rubber gloves and observe safety precautions for corrosive liquid.  Remove the acid, place the cannon vertical again, and fill whole cannon with fresh water to dilute what's left of the acid, then lay cannon down and wash out with water under pressure to dilute any remaining acid.

Note:  Check whether muriatic acid will damage cast iron before you start.  I use it on steel all the time but I don't know if it will damage cast iron or not.

[Victor3]

 Hmmm...

 I wouldn't try the grease gun method on a rusty bore as a first choice; the grease may seep around the plug before enough pressure can build, due either to gaps in the seal or the plug cocking in the bore. You'd need a hell of a lot of grease too.

 However, if it is a nice clean bore and the plug seals nicely, oil or even water can be used with a grease gun for such purposes and it's a lot less messy

 If it were my project, I'd remove as much of the rust in the bore as possible, drill a few ~5/8" holes around the periphery of the plug and one in the center, and make a simple slide hammer with a hardened steel hook on the end of it that could pass through the holes to grab the back of the plug. You could then work the plug out little by little even if it cocks to one side by going from hole to hole until you get it free.

 Hey, wait a minute - This is a cannon. Get some powder in there somehow and BLAST it out.

[cannonmn]

Get the barrel vertical again with muzzle up.  Set into the cup at least a 1" dia. rod long enough for at least 6" to stick out the muzzle, with circular plate welded on end, that just fits all the way into the cup.  Pour enough molten linotype or antimony printer's lead (expands when it cools) around the rod to fill the cup.  The hot lead will heat and expand cup slightly and help break rust, then contract again but will make a tight bond between rusty cup and the flange end of the bar.  Then you can put pulling force on the bar to remove the cup.  It would help if you used Allthread rod for that, then pulling at muzzle end is easy, just put on a big washer and a nut.  The lead may pull out of the cup but the heating from the molten lead may do enough to break the rust and loosen it.

[Squire Robin]

Get the barrel vertical again with muzzle up.

Easy to say

This is not the weather for moving cannons, may be sweating cobs but is upright and I can see the cup.

Now working on a 44" drill extension