Author Topic: Texas appeals court rules on children  (Read 2413 times)

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Offline victorcharlie

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Texas appeals court rules on children
« on: May 22, 2008, 11:21:42 AM »
Seem they see some problems with the way 400 kids have been taken.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080522/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=Ai2pePwsljMJ.mxmgGTkttWs0NUE

The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the state offered "legally and factually insufficient" grounds for the "extreme" measure of removing all children from the ranch, from babies to teenagers.

The state never provided evidence that the children were in any immediate danger, the only grounds in Texas law for taking children from their parents without court approval, the appeals court said.

It also failed to show evidence that more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and never alleged any sexual or physical abuse against the other children, the court said.

It was not immediately clear whether the children scattered across foster facilities statewide might soon be reunited with parents. The ruling gave Texas District Judge Barbara Walther 10 days to vacate her custody order, and the state could appeal.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 01:25:55 PM »
OOPS!
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline oldandslow

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 01:44:42 PM »
If what I read in the news is correct That is probably the way Texas is going to get out of having to care for all the kids. There was an article in the local paper today about the legislature trying to come up with the money. Just get the judge to throw the whole thing out and give the kids back and no problem. LOL.

New Mexico has a mini- version of this going on up close to Santa Fe.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 02:11:14 PM »
If what I read in the news is correct That is probably the way Texas is going to get out of having to care for all the kids. There was an article in the local paper today about the legislature trying to come up with the money. Just get the judge to throw the whole thing out and give the kids back and no problem. LOL.

New Mexico has a mini- version of this going on up close to Santa Fe.

No problem except the law suits that are sure to follow.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline jimster

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 02:16:42 PM »
Maybe a judge just read the bill of rights and decided that they had some rights, and the State needed to prove something before search and confiscation took place.  We best be glad about that, in 30 years there might be a whole pack of people that think we aren't living right, and come for us.   My opinion, they vary for sure on this subject.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2008, 07:04:45 PM »
I have and have had no position on what is going on with the grown ups nor anything else.  The only info I've heard is the screaming bids for ratings from the talking heads and the oily BS from the spin meisters.  One side only.
But I've said from the beginning, snatching those kids away from their mothers or care givers or whatever you want to call them was wrong, wrong, wrong. 
If half of what they say about the leaders of that group is true, they ought to have a public hanging (although I have a feeling that when it shakes out, if it's 1% true, it'll be a surprise) but I hope they sue the pants off the clown that decided to santch those kids. :(

Offline Dee

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 07:35:15 AM »
Maybe a judge just read the bill of rights and decided that they had some rights, and the State needed to prove something before search and confiscation took place.  We best be glad about that, in 30 years there might be a whole pack of people that think we aren't living right, and come for us.   My opinion, they vary for sure on this subject.

They didn't have any rights at Waco. But that's government as usual. Guilty until proven innocent.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline myronman3

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 07:58:22 AM »
well, well, well.   it seems that some of us were right in viewing this all with a suspect eye.   once the hype dies down,  that is when things seem to sort out. 

Offline ms

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 09:56:33 AM »
I hope they sue fox cnn msnbc all of them.

Offline torpedoman

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 10:27:04 AM »
 A lousy lawyer can make millionaires out of all the women and a good one can really make a bundle with the kids claiming trauma and maltreatment from the "protection"agencies"  Maybe the averageTexan will demand answer's from their government.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline Shooter973

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 12:59:35 PM »
I think these FLDS folks are going to be rich, or own a lot of Texas when this clears up!!! Their rights were trampled on badly.  Texas better hope that they don't hold a grudge.... ::)

Offline Dee

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 01:54:31 PM »
This is just my opinion, but I tend to think that they just want to be left alone, and may just choose to fade into the wood work, hoping to be forgotten about. Their mentality is to separate themselves from the general public not embroil themselves in a court system they do not care for. JMO of course.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline jimster

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2008, 10:37:20 AM »
No problem with investigation TM7...the Government has legal ways to do that.  Search and confiscate family members before investigation and with no charges, and without a good warrant  is way wrong.   Like myronman3 said, there were a few of us that brought this up in another thread much earlier, some of us knew it was wrong, and some of us figured Texas might pay big, although it was brought to my attention that I don't live in Texas (true, can't argue that)....I think the Bill of Rights does matter no matter what State organization is involved.  It was also brought up that some State organizations have "great power"....to do what they want.  I do believe the Second Amendment is put there to take care of anyone having "great power" as well.  Not trying to play Rambo here or anything like that, just sayin the State is lucky those people did not decide to use the 2nd it could have been pretty nasty.  The way I look at this deal, a whole bunch of righteous people formed a lynching party/mob...call it what you want, against a group of people who they did not like.  Until someone charges a few hundred mothers/keepers with abuse, or finds 400 kids abused...I'm only going to judge what I know for sure.  The State was way out of line taking children out of their homes and separating them from the only thing they know.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 03:12:13 AM »
intereestingly enough, the lynch mob that was calling for heads has been mighty quiet.   hmmmm...

Offline no guns here

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 07:08:28 AM »
Back to my original post about the "polygamist thing"... I TOLD YOU SO!!!  SOB's did it all wrong.  Didn't have a ground to stand on when they wrongfully imprisoned those women and kids.  Didn't have a ground to stand on when they tore the family's apart.  I hope some lawyers in Texas manage to make multi millionaires out of very one of those kids...  Texas deserves it...


no guns here
"I feared for my life!"

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2008, 09:17:36 AM »
the lynch mob ... has been mighty quiet.

 ;D   ;)
Richard
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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2008, 03:46:44 PM »
intereestingly enough, the lynch mob that was calling for heads has been mighty quiet.   hmmmm...

Yep...... ???
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Freezer

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2008, 05:53:58 PM »
    There's something I don't understand here.  If homosexuals can marry and have adopt children Why does the government have a problem with polygamy?  Two consenting adults, three consenting adults, four consenting adults.  I don't see the difference!  If homosexuals have the right to make their choice why can't everyone else?  Personally I don't want more than one wife.....
                                                The penalty for polygamy is two mothers-in-laws!
                                                                                  :o

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 02:56:34 AM »
Since seeing the picture's of Warren Jeff playing suck face with his 12 year''BRIDE'', I know that's what I would want if I had a 12 year old daughter. I'ld send her off to get some ''RELIGIOUS'' training at that compound.   gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline myronman3

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 03:03:57 AM »
so are you saying that justifies the states actions against all the families? 

Offline Freezer

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 03:22:08 AM »
   No I'm saying if their going to say aberrant sexual behavior is ok they should stay out of every ones sex choices, well... except when it come to kids. Predators should be hunted and shot as trophies.

    If homosexuality is just another life style then so is polygamy, beastiality, and so on!

    These are the same fools that scream if you tell a homo joke but love a redneck joke.  What they won't understand is how hypocritiacal and what a joke they are.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 07:00:15 AM »
   No I'm saying if their going to say aberrant sexual behavior is ok they should stay out of every ones sex choices, well... except when it come to kids. Predators should be hunted and shot as trophies.

    If homosexuality is just another life style then so is polygamy, beastiality, and so on!

    These are the same fools that scream if you tell a homo joke but love a redneck joke.  What they won't understand is how hypocritiacal and what a joke they are.
My guess, and this is just a guess, is that this whole case was motivated by an angry, bigoted, jesus-freak.  Look around here and you'll find some with a similar outlook.  I suspect that person was so afraid of/mad at these people of a non-traditional religion that they were just looking for a way to destroy them or chase them to another state.

But the answer to your question is that polygamy, in order for the numbers to work, must involve either old men and young women, or removing boys.  Therefor it is no longer a relationship between consenting adults.  That was the supreme court's justification last time they heard a polygamy case.

Offline myronman3

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 07:19:27 AM »
   No I'm saying if their going to say aberrant sexual behavior is ok they should stay out of every ones sex choices, well... except when it come to kids. Predators should be hunted and shot as trophies.

    If homosexuality is just another life style then so is polygamy, beastiality, and so on!

    These are the same fools that scream if you tell a homo joke but love a redneck joke.  What they won't understand is how hypocritiacal and what a joke they are.
i agree, the statement wasnt aimed at you.  i was refering to gypsyman

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 07:36:51 AM »
If homosexuality is just another life style then so is polygamy, beastiality, and so on!

Okay, now you're meddling!  Leave me and my sheep out of this!  :-*

Quote
What they won't understand is how hypocritical and what a joke they are.

On this we can agree, I dislike hypocrisy... I think that if you prefer same sex relations, or multiple spouses that's fine.  I'm not involved.  The participants are consenting adults and all that.  But to some the very idea is abhorrent for one reason or another.  Are they being hypocritical?  Probably not as they hold these prejudices as their honest beliefs and I'm sure they could give you well founded reasons (in their own minds at least) to back up their position.

Now while I don't believe sheep can give informed consent, as long as they are the property of the "wool lover" it isn't really necessary.  Sheep fall into the class of "dumb animals..."  Reminds me of a case where the defendant told the police officer "It's my dog and I'll #%$^ it whenever I want to."  So, if the owner can kill his animal at his pleasure, why can't he, uh, do what ever else he wants to?  We're not involved.  But what about the question of animal rights?  Ask PETA or the HSUS if you want to start a rant.

And while I ;D at the query about the lack of comments in this thread by all those that were calling for the summary execution of all male members of the compound in question based on the allegations of a few bureaucrats, I don't think they are hypocrites either.  I do feel, however, that some people hold some beliefs so strongly that a mere inference of a violation of the belief can send them into blind rage, as it were.  Child molestation is one of the better known and universally condemned acts and normally one that invokes the strongest of emotions.  One can make a tongue-in-cheek comment about the cutest sheep in the pen and most men will at least chuckle.  Make a sexual innuendo about a child and you may get lynched!  Emotions are well known and often used to gain a tactical advantage in many situations.  For example, consider the fact that molestation is alleged in a majority of contested divorces cases where children are involved.

Therefore It may be possible that certain government agencies or individuals used this well known bias to justify their actions.  Whether or not this was done out of their actual concern for the welfare of the children or for some other reason is, as of yet, unknown.  And the people who applauded their actions were not being hypocrites.  They saw something being done that complimented the beliefs they hold.  The only problem I see is the willingness of some to accept violations of individual rights as long as they see it as furthering the goals of their beliefs.  Thank heaven for lawyers!
Richard
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 08:09:01 AM »
That's funny lawyer and heaven in the same sentence as a positive . ( pay back for "get a room" )
The fat lady hasn't sang yet so one court decision might not be the end . My hope is the kids are better off in the end .
The worst part so far is we were not surprised at the apparent abuse of power but the up holding of the Constitution !
AIN"T THAT BACK AZZWARDS ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2008, 09:06:23 AM »
( pay back for "get a room" )

;D

Quote
The worst part so far is we were not surprised at the apparent abuse of power but the up holding of the Constitution !
AIN"T THAT BACK AZZWARDS ?

 :o  By golly you are right on!  I never even considered that!  It seems that I have grown to accept abuse of power as a fact of life and the upholding of the principles upon which this country was founded as apart from the norm!  Guess that's why I'm concerned about the Supreme's upcoming decision on the 2d Amendment...  Oh me of such little faith... :-[
Richard
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2008, 09:54:53 AM »
You are the lawyer , the Constitution gives rights to the Govt. and protects rights already held by individuals correct ?
This has been eroded for some time now , IE. judges instruction to a jury has no basis as the jury was the last check in the balance of power . In reality the jury of peers could in fact not enforce a law they did not feel lawful even though it had stood all other test . No matter what happens with the 2nd. amend. case until some poor citizen goes to court we will still not have a finial ruling .
This thing in Texas was a win for WE THE PEOPLE , make no mistake citizens at home  endure hardship to protect freedom also . The fact we can prevail proves we do have some freedom !
I once took a class to be able to teach VIP protection , the instructor ask who should be allowed a gun . The answer is all Americans enjoy the same freedoms and anything less would be Un-American . Some can't swallow that yet !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2008, 11:05:29 AM »
Sheesh!  ::)  I been sitting here trying to think how to answer this.  I finally asked myself, "self?" what would our fellow readers prefer?  Brevity!  ;D

the Constitution gives rights to the Govt. and protects rights already held by individuals correct ?

In the simplest, basic, non-all inclusive terms, yes (boy it hurts me to say that!  There is SOOOO much more!)

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This has been eroded for some time now

You mean starting before the war of northern oppression? :o

Quote
judges instruction to a jury has no basis ...

Well they do because the verdict is ideally based on the facts of the case as applied to the pertinent law.  The jury determines what the facts are through the evidence, and the judge gives them the applicable law in the charges.

Quote
...as the jury was the last check in the balance of power

I've never heard it put that way, but, with respect to the relationship between the accused and the law, I'd say that's a true statement (see below)

Quote
In reality the jury of peers could in fact not enforce a law they did not feel lawful even though it had stood all other test.

While I'm not trying to get into the semantics game, I don't think "enforce" is the best term to use in this particular situation.  A LEO would, using his discretion and understanding of the law, enforce statutory law.  A jury would render a verdict on the accused's charge of the violation of that statute.  The key to what you are referring to is that even if the statute is valid, and even if the facts prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused violated that statute, the jury does NOT have to find the accused guilty.  One of the standard jury charges in the State of Georgia goes something like "if you find that the defendant did, on so and so in such and such, commit the act of - whatever - in violation of -this and that - then you MAY (not "must" but "may") find the defendant guilty of -the charge."  So you are right, someone may violate a law beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury may still find him not guilty.  Ask OJ.   ;)

Quote
No matter what happens with the 2nd. amend. case until some poor citizen goes to court we will still not have a finial ruling.

Maybe, but I think this decision is more important to "we the people" then an individual case here or there.

Quote
This thing in Texas was a win for WE THE PEOPLE , make no mistake citizens at home  endure hardship to protect freedom also . The fact we can prevail proves we do have some freedom! ...all Americans enjoy the same freedoms and anything less would be Un-American .

AMEN BROTHER! AMEN!!!!!  Now, let's get some input from Sharon!   :P
Richard
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Offline jimster

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2008, 12:01:28 PM »
AtlLaw summed it up for me in one sentence  "The only problem I see is the willingness of some to accept violations of individual rights as long as they see it as furthering the goals of their beliefs. "

That how I feel about it in a nutshell, without going into any specifics at all.  That is the part that scares me the most , thinking it could happen to me someday, all depending on the beliefs of another group of people. 

I also feel the same way as most all people about anyone abusing children, if they are found guilty, hang them for sure, no punishment is too harsh. 

Jim


Offline Freezer

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2008, 01:56:02 PM »
    No offense taken here!  God help me I work for the Peoples Republic of Berkeley :-[  I'm the most evil thing that walks their streets.
I'm a blue collar, conservative, Catholic Christian, Republician, Boy Scout Leader, that had two sons in the Sea Scouts, a military veteran and a card carrying member of the NRA.  If it wasn't for me they might think they were right  ;D

    I had a bumper sticker on my car and somebody destroyed it, I wish I knew who did it so I could thank them for proving my point.  It said; Liberals preach tolerance and diversity but show neither when faced with opinions of their own!

I think Hank Jr has it right, "Why can't everyone else leave everybody else alone!  You do your thing we'll do our thing too!".