Author Topic: Texas appeals court rules on children  (Read 2414 times)

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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2008, 02:52:48 PM »
What about the rights of the children. Not sure about anybody else, but as a grown man, with 2 children,(both boys, but it doesn't matter) I guess I just wouldn't have the attitude to live in a ''so called'' religious compound like that, turning a blind eye child abuse. And any man that lived there, knew what was going on. As far as I'm concerned, even if that person wasn't guilty of being a pedophile, their guilty by association. How come all you see in the news story's is mostly women. I've only seen one man that was at the ranch that was willing to be interviewed. And a recent Warren Jeff film clip, had him stating that he was the most horrible man that ever lived, and sinned the most.  All those judges did was send the kids back with their mothers.(and I'm not giving them much credit for having a brain either) Wonder when the ''dads'' are going to start showing back up. Like to see some of them stand in front of a camera and explain how they had 4 bride's, and the oldest one was 15 when she was married.  gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2008, 08:49:00 AM »
...any man that lived there, knew what was going on. As far as I'm concerned, even if that person wasn't guilty of being a pedophile, their guilty by association.
How come all you see in the news story's is mostly women.
I've only seen one man that was at the ranch that was willing to be interviewed.
...the ''dads'' ... Like to see some of them stand in front of a camera and explain how they had 4 bride's, and the oldest one was 15 when she was married.
gypsyman

Okay, some more thoughts on this issue that gypsyman brought up.  I know the questions you asked were probably rhetorical, but your thoughts apply to not only the TX group in question, but anyone in any location or particular situation.  IF a crime has been committed, and IF any number of people had knowledge of the commission of that crime, then it is possible that every such person is guilty of something.  I say this because most/all states have laws covering this circumstance.  Therefore, ALL involved could face criminal charges IF the illegal act is discovered and therefore they should exercise their rights starting NOW!  This is about as close to your guilt by association as you can come.

Or it is possible that NO illegal act has been committed but people, for some reason, are brought to the attention of a charging authority who believes that a violation may have occurred.  Likewise in this case, as soon as it comes to a person's attention that he is being looked at with respect to the commission of a crime, he should exercise his rights.

Why?  Because nothing has been proved at this point, a crime has only been alleged, and the actors in either situation enjoy the protections of our Constitution.  Whether they are ultimately adjudged to be guilty or not guilty, or what your opinion of them is, is not even worthy of consideration at this point.

GEEEESE!!!  :'(  I'm trying to be brief, but it's REAL hard!

Some more pattern jury charges that may help with relation to the above scenarios and your questions.
1.  The defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty.  It seems this is a concept that many have a hard time getting their head around.  Where are you guys when I pick a jury?!
2.  No person shall be convicted of any crime unless and until each element of the crime is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
3.  The burden of proof rests upon the state to prove every material allegation of the indictment and every essential element of the crime charged.
4.  There is no burden of proof upon the defendant whatever, and the burden never shifts to the defendant to prove his innocence.

There is one other commonly used charge that is directly related to the question at hand.  This charge is based in part on the 5th Amendment:
"No person shall be ... compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, ..."  Therefore the judge tells the jury that the defendant does not have to testify because the burden is upon the state to prove his guilt and they should not draw any inference based on the defendant's failure to testify.  Of course, the 5th is also the basis for the Miranda Warning "right to remain silent."

With this basis maybe we can answer gypsyman's post.
1)  "any man that lived there, knew what was going on. As far as I'm concerned, even if that person wasn't guilty of being a pedophile, their guilty by association."  Then any person that lived there and knew of any law that had been broken should also understand that they may become involved in a criminal investigation.
2)  How come all you see in the news story's is mostly women.  See 1) above.  The men were being investigated.  And even though the failure to report a crime, conspiracy to commit or whatever charge would also apply to the women of the compound, everyone is thinking of men having sex with girls and these are just mothers trying to get their children back.
3)  ...the ''dads'' ... Like to see some of them stand in front of a camera and explain how they had 4 bride's, and the oldest one was 15 when she was married.  Why would they want to?  (a)  They don't have to justify or explain anything to anyone like you or me.  (b)  If it's a government agency doing the asking, our Constitution protects us from having to make any statement.

Lets say you live in DC and you have your great gran-daddy's muzzle loader that he used in the war of northern aggression to beat back the invading yankee hoards.  Being rightfully proud of your heritage, the rifle, bayonet attached, is prominently displayed where anyone inside your home can see it.  One of your children's friends see it and tells his mother, who happens to be the chairperson of the neighborhood "Expand the Brady Bill" committee, about the "neat rifle that was used in the war and it's got a bayonet and everything" displayed in your house.  In a rage that her innocent little darling was exposed to such a death dealing device she goes to your house loaded with lectures and demands based on her personal opinions and an incomplete understanding of the facts.  You tell her to take a hike and shut the door in her face.  See (a) above.

Even madder now, she calls the DC Police Hot Line and anonymously informs the authorities that you have an "assault rifle" in your home.   Officer Friendly appears at your door and tells you about the tip and asks to come in and check out the weapon so that he can "help you" make sure there is no violation of the law or take care of any violation there may be before "this goes any further."  You tell him to take a hike and shut the door in his face.  See (b) above.

You will notice that we haven't even mentioned anything about whether or not the rifle was functional or whether or not your possession of the rifle complied with DC law.  In other words, all this is going on and nobody really knows if a law was violated.  But an anti-gun activist wants to see you punished because you obviously, although she has only heard stories, exemplify what she hates.

(As an aside:  I should hope Officer Friendly wouldn't have shown up with a search warrant in hand at this time, see the 4th Amendment, but unfortunately I have seen things... )

Your questions involved just a couple of our rights but they ALL should be jealously protected!  If we didn't have them, in our scenario the anonymous tip would have lead to the breaking in of our door in the middle of the night and our being hauled off, never to be heard from or seen again.

I could go on and on and on and on, but I will not; now or hopefully ever again on the forum, for a number of reasons:
First, I'm here for fun.  This stuff is much to serious to be treated lightly or discussed in a few words as I have attempted to do here.
Second, this is what I do for a living.  I can't remember when I've spent this much time writing something for FREE!
Third and lastly, Someone could take my rantings as legal advice or an explanation of the law in general or as it applies to a particular circumstance of theirs.  It is not and should not be considered as such by anyone.  It is merely my pontificating and anyone who relies in any way on anything I have said here does so at their own peril.  If you need legal advice contact a lawyer who practices in your jurisdiction.
Richard
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Offline myronman3

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2008, 10:35:49 AM »
i am often amazed at how people are so willing to overlook innocent until proven guilty.   all it takes to ruin someone is an accusation anymore.   folks really need to think a bit.  once you have been under the thumb of a power tripping d.a.,  your perspective changes.    i view everything with a suspect eye; one is less apt to get hoodwinked that way.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2008, 02:15:56 AM »
i am often amazed at how people are so willing to overlook innocent until proven guilty.   all it takes to ruin someone is an accusation anymore.   folks really need to think a bit.  once you have been under the thumb of a power tripping d.a.,  your perspective changes.    i view everything with a suspect eye; one is less apt to get hoodwinked that way.

I'm amazed how easy it is to obtain a search warrant.  This whole process seems flawed to me.  I call in and say myronman has some dope in his house, the cops go to a judge and say we got this anonymous tip......next thing you know myronman gets his door kicked down by the swat team executing a no knock warrant, they find some ibuprophen in an unlabeled bottle and arrest him.  He goes down town where they force him to submit to a DNA test and then realize the tip was a prank, or they got the wrong address, or what ever.  At the very least, he has to pay to get his door fixed, or....hires a bail bondsman and an attorney.

Yes, probable cause, and search and seizure has gotten way out of control, never mind due process and self incrimination.

Liberty keeps declining as most give it away so easily.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2008, 05:03:10 AM »
After reading the posts, and doing some thinking, I can see others view's. I guess I just have a hard time understanding how a person can submit themselves to this kind of lifestyle. I can't think of a single cult, that ever turned out for the good. They either all killed themselves,(Jim Jones cult in Gahanna,the Left behind cult in Ca., or the Mansan cult that killed Tate) And after reading tons of stories over the years, where a judge has sent back a child to an abusive home, and the kid ends up being sexually or physically abused some more, I have a very low tolerance level for stupidity. But if we could pass a law to make stupid people disappear, Washington,D.C. would be a ghost town.  gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2008, 08:27:05 AM »
ATLAW , I think we agree ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline TribReady

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2008, 11:51:47 AM »
After reading the posts, and doing some thinking, I can see others view's. I guess I just have a hard time understanding how a person can submit themselves to this kind of lifestyle. I can't think of a single cult, that ever turned out for the good. They either all killed themselves,(Jim Jones cult in Gahanna,the Left behind cult in Ca., or the Mansan cult that killed Tate) And after reading tons of stories over the years, where a judge has sent back a child to an abusive home, and the kid ends up being sexually or physically abused some more, I have a very low tolerance level for stupidity.

AtLaw, Your synopsis was great and helped me see this whole thing from a legal perspective, not just my own viewpoint which says lock them all up now!  It helps me see why the TX Supreme Court ruled the way it did.  I still don't agree(..lock everyone up now..lethal injection for the leader...) but it does offer insight into what is happening.  By the way, you'd probably love me on a jury---if you're the prosecuting atty   :)
That being said, I think gypsyman hit on the same thing I was thinking last night. If these kids go back to the compound with their families, what's to stop the cult leader guy from directing a mass murder/suicide from within prison. He is their spiritual leader and they actually worship him, so it's more than plausible.  I know the state can't step in and stop something that may or may not happen, but the murder/suicide scenario would just be heaping more tragedy onto this already-a-tragedy situation
A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas Jefferson


...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.  -2 Chronicles 7:14

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2008, 03:27:08 AM »
TribReady , is that not the price we pay to be free IE. we cannot control everyone else and force them to be like us or at least what we think they should be .God help us if we ever get jailed for what we think or worst get jailed for what others think we think !
It is people who think they know better how we should live that cause the problems and that is why the laws of this country exist to keep them from doing so !
It could be a tragic out come for several 100 people if in fact you are correct but to allow Govt. intervention with out cause would be tragic for Millions of Americans . It would end our freedoms , what few we still have .
Guess freedom ain't free !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline TribReady

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2008, 03:50:45 AM »
SHOOTALL-
You are also correct. Things like this frustrate me, but the eventual/inevitable outcome would be much worse than a "frustration"

If everyone would just think and act like me and do/act however I say, everything would be just fine :)   I'd be happy if I could just get that in my own home....a day or two a week would even be ok  :)

I see trouble down the road if/when our country shifts more to the far left.  The erosions to the Constitution started now could come back to really hurt a gun-grabbing, Bible-believing guy like me.  I understand all of your concerns involving this particular case.
A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas Jefferson


...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.  -2 Chronicles 7:14

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2008, 04:25:42 AM »
i agree with the not wanting left wing ideals , but to allow the govt. a free hand at twisting laws to suit them is a bad path to take . The deal in Texas is not over and i would guess some laws may change or policy will be reviewed and changed !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2008, 04:45:26 AM »
In the remote possibility that some nut would call for mass suicide, I think it's best to rip those little kids away from their mothers and cage them up and treat them like criminals and animals. I'm from the gov'ment and I know best and I'm here to help you whether you want it or not!! And too, those children need to be taught a lesson in what sort of parents to be born to.  Had their mothers been drug addicted whores, they would have been home in a thrice.

I think there is more danger of a bunch of self appointed zealots being whipped into a frenzy by the talking heads from the media and the gov'ment --don't forget we're here to help you-- and doing harm than some jailed religious leader calling for a mass suicide.

I have a question:  At what point does a religious group become a cult?  Or a cult become a religious group? When the prots fled England, seeking religious freedom, were they cults?  Is a fundamentalist Baptist group that believes in snake handling a cult or a religious group?  Are foot washing Baptist a cult?  This outfit down in Texas had several hundred members and is a cult.  Here in WV, we have little independent Churches with maybe 2 dozen members or so. Little, white Churches set back up in a cove. The one my wife attended was established in 1894. Are they a cult?
Are cults bad?  

Offline TribReady

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2008, 05:52:32 AM »
I think we're focusing too much on the cult aspect.  beemanbeme, you're right. I've had friends and family claim my family has been members of a cult with some of the churches we've attended ("You mean they raise their hands when they sing??!!  You put hands on people when you pray for them??!!")  :)

Like the Branch Davidians, a cult in and of itself, may not be inherently bad, and relatively difficult to define. I don't want the government to make that definition.  In this case though, the lines get blurred due to criminal activity and people's anger gets built up with the statutory rape, incest, and sexual abuse.  I'm not going to defend the government and I'm agreeing with 99.9% of what you guys are saying, it's just hard to view some of this rationally as a father of pre-teen girls.  I know to see the big picture and allow the system to runs its course against this guy....within the bounds of the Constitution
A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas Jefferson


...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.  -2 Chronicles 7:14

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2008, 07:18:36 AM »
If it is a non accepted "religious" group it is often called a cult much also has to do with the power of the leader(s). Once accepted not sure it could go back to a cult . 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2008, 07:52:41 AM »
I have a question:  At what point does a religious group become a cult?  Or a cult become a religious group? When the prots fled England, seeking religious freedom, were they cults?  Is a fundamentalist Baptist group that believes in snake handling a cult or a religious group?  Are foot washing Baptist a cult?  This outfit down in Texas had several hundred members and is a cult.  Here in WV, we have little independent Churches with maybe 2 dozen members or so. Little, white Churches set back up in a cove. The one my wife attended was established in 1894. Are they a cult?
Are cults bad?

From Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary
Main Entry: cult 
Pronunciation: \ˈkəlt\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
Date: 1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
Richard
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2008, 12:14:41 PM »
That is the whole point Trib. You don't KNOW there was incest, nor rape, nor abuse.  You have only the words of a MOB of HYSTERICAL talking heads looking to further their careers. One part in the media and one part in the gov'ment. And you notice how my use of the words "MOB" AND "HYSTERICAL" changed your perspective of the talking heads. That's what they did to you with their words chosen to inflame. Not a single adult has stood up and said "yes, I did what I am accused of".  And so, it is as Dr. Atlaw sez CONJECTURE, RUMOR, HERESAY.

As a thought, think of how many teachers, principals, fathers, stepfathers, etc have had their lives ruined by a vindictive child, a telephone, and a overzealous, untrained advocate.  I believe this was all started by an anonymous, out of state phone call that has since proven false and the person making the call can't be located.

And so we find a cult is merely a religious group unless you want to make sinister connotations.

Kinda like making a scoped rifle a sniper rifle or a 742 an assault weapon or a gun collection an arsenal. It's all in semantics.  If Dr Atlaw is defending the village drunk, he is no longer a stinking drunk with urine soaked pants and puke on his shirt but instead is a child-loving, kindly, old gentleman that likes an occasional nip.  :D




Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2008, 02:16:21 PM »
I think we agree ?

Don't we usually?   ;)  Except maybe I learned long ago not to argue with wimmins!   ;D
Richard
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2008, 02:20:31 AM »
keep an eye out if i start with a wimmins again tell me to STHU !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline myronman3

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2008, 02:46:30 AM »
After reading the posts, and doing some thinking, I can see others view's. I guess I just have a hard time understanding how a person can submit themselves to this kind of lifestyle. I can't think of a single cult, that ever turned out for the good. They either all killed themselves,(Jim Jones cult in Gahanna,the Left behind cult in Ca., or the Mansan cult that killed Tate) And after reading tons of stories over the years, where a judge has sent back a child to an abusive home, and the kid ends up being sexually or physically abused some more, I have a very low tolerance level for stupidity. But if we could pass a law to make stupid people disappear, Washington,D.C. would be a ghost town.  gypsyman
i hear you loud and clear.   you have also earned my respect for hearing others out and seeing their point, even though you have strong feelings.   the word "cult" is used in the same context that they have used the word "militia".   it brings out strong feelings because of the way they use it.   others have already made this point, but it is a good point to make. 

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2008, 05:16:41 AM »
Hey TM,
Sorry about the delay in this but I'm having 'puter problems at home and only got a few minutes at a time here at work.  I wrote a response last night but my system went off line before I could post it.  If and when I get it back up I'll do that anyway.  But, until them let me give you a real short, incomplete and not necessarily true answer to your questions.

1} is it a Crime/Offense to Not report a crime, conspiracy, or whatever infraction to the gov's agents?

Answer:  Possibly

Quote
2} since the P. Act is it now so?

Answer:  In the area we are discussing, I don't believe the Privacy Act has any application.
Richard
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2008, 04:50:11 PM »
TM7, he's gonna send you a big, fat biiiilllllll. :D

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2008, 06:43:39 AM »
I THOUGHT that was the intent of the original isolation. Which brings a paradox, how can you invade the body of a child if the parent or legal care giver isn't there to give consent?  I understand that the DHS can act pretty damn arbitary at times but what they can do to or for a child after taking him from a home is still limited. It still has to be in the child's best interest, and I don't see how invading his body to see if a case can be made against an adult is doing him any good. 
 I must say it sho has gotten quiet over there after the initial "damn the torpedoes" assault.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2008, 06:45:31 AM »
AtLaw...by P.Act I meant Patriots Act.

Geeeeze!  Don't get me started on the Patriot Act.  Another example of word connotation!  If you don't agree with some of it you are being UN-patriotic...

Quote
Were blood and or tissue or DNA samples taken from these children and or adults....?

Remember, I don't know TX law, but if that were here I should hope the women refused and all those children's appointed attorney's objected to anything like that!  Unless of course they were appointed as Gardian Ad Litems.  As far as the men in the compound go, if someone came there and asked them to give a sample of anything, see "You tell him to take a hike and shut the door in his face."  In Georgia the Judge of a Court of Competent Jurisdiction can order parties to take a DNA test; IN SOME CASES COVERED BY STATUTE.  In any other case I think it would be compelling testimony from a defendant in a criminal investigation.  Can't prove paternity (this is not true BTW) if there is no test.

BTW TM, my bills in the mail.  I'm sure it and your check will cross at some point before they are lost...  ;D
Richard
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Texas appeals court rules on children
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2008, 06:51:38 AM »
Which brings a paradox, how can you invade the body of a child if the parent or legal care giver isn't there to give consent?

BINGO!!  :-*  Give the man a see-gar!   ;D  This area is quite involved but this is the natural starting point in the argument.
Richard
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