Author Topic: NEF Huntsman, Blackhorn 209, .25 ACP Ignition, 209 Primer Carrier Ignition *NEW*  (Read 3538 times)

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Offline Busta

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Well, I finally got out and shot the NEF huntsman today with Blackhorn 209. The .25 ACP with standard small rifle primers (CCI 400) is not going to work as far as 100% instant ignition. In my preliminary report, I shot off hand at a puddle in front of my backstop, it seemed like it was instant ignition at the time. Today however, I shot off the bench and noticed a little lag in ignition, not hangfires, but a slight delay. I could actually hear the hammer fall a split second before ignition.

First up was some 240 grain XTP's and 90 gr BH209. The lag in ignition was very noticeable on the bench, but the first bullet clipped the bullseye at 8 o'clock. The next bullet hit 1-1/4" right of the bulls center and also had a very noticeable lag in ignition. The third bullet hit about 2" high and right of the bull opening up the group to 3", when all things considered is better than I thought it would be.



Next up was 240 grain T/C Cheapshots and 80 grains BH209, this is the same load I shot off hand out my garage door into the puddle in front of my backstop. The lag in ignition seemed to be less, but still noticeable on the bench. The 3rd shot in this group I had a FTF, after using a nipple pick to clean out the carbon in the flash hole I reprimed and had an instant ignition, the only shot out of six that seemed instant. The group was hardly any better at 2.81", and that concluded my testing with the .25 ACP plug and CCI 400 primers. I will get some Small Rifle MAGNUM Primers and give it another go sometime on down the road.



At this point I went back inside and swapped to the original Primer Carrier Breech Plug, and Winchester W209 Primers. I tried the 200 grain Shockwaves and 100 grains BH209, ignition was instant, but unfortunately the group was the worst of the day at 3.35".



A little frustrated at this point, I figured I would try the Knight 250 gr PBT's that shoot one hole groups out of my Knight Disc Extreme. They loaded so hard, that if I hadn't had my Knight Range Rod, I doubt I would have got them down the bore. Unfortunately they would not group with 100 grains BH209 and had a vertical 2.90" group.



Very frustrated at this point, I figured I would try something different, a heavier bullet and a lighter charge of powder. I got out the 300 grain SST's and 80 grains BH209. This load shows some serious promise and will get some follow up time at a later date. This was the best group of the day at 1.15", and they loaded much easier than the 250 grain Knight/Barnes and the 200 grain Shockwaves.



Overall, the .25 ACP is not going to get it done reliably with the standard Small Rifle Primers (CCI 400). The 209 Primer Carrier Ignition will get it done, but may take a little time to find the perfect bullet and powder combination. My barrel is only 24", and BH209 is a progressive powder which is more suited to longer barrels with the heavier powder charges. I would also like to do some testing with some heavy 460 grain conicals, but I think I will forgo trying them with the .25ACP.

This is the overall target, it was a 3 MOA day today for the most part.



I did use one new primer carrier today for the 9 shots, the blowback was surprisingly less than when using 777, but it washed .010" off the thickness of the carrier. A new one measures .310" thick, that one after 9 shots only measures .300" and was allowing more blowback at every shot.





I also saved some primers and sabots today. Most all of the primers flowed back as you can see, and the sabots were intact except for the 200 grain Shockwave sabots which are known to shed petals.



If someone would make a Breech Plug for bare 209 primers, he would have a winner for the NEF's with Blackhorn 209 Powder. Probably be hard to convince somebody to make some, now that the NEF ML's have been discontinued.
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Offline Busta

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Well I tried the BH209 today with some 440 grain White Power Punch bullets. I used 70 grains BH209, .060"x.518" fiber gasket wads, 440 grain conical, and Winchester W209 primers in a new primer carrier.

The first shot was loaded and fired without a hitch, hit 2" high and 1" right of the bull.

Second shot sounded a bit different than the first and printed 1" low and 1" right of the bull, almost 3" of spread between the two at 50 yards. Not good!

The third sounded like just the primer went off, and I could not feel any recoil. Thinking it was a FTF and seeing smoke coming out the primer carrier slot, I held on the backstop for about 3 minutes just in case of a hang fire. After about five minutes I mustered up the courage to crack it open to see what went wrong. Fully expecting to still have a charge in the barrel, I was surprised to see daylight through the flash hole after removing the primer carrier. No clue as to where the bullet went. Not good 2!

I then decided to load one more load, this time I used two fiber gasket wads between the bullet and powder. This time I had a bona-fide hang-fire. God only knows where that bullet went, but I can assure you it didn't hit the target or backer. NOT GOOD 3!

That concluded my conical test. I think the problem lies between the basically slip fit bullets and the primer carriers allowing pressure to slip past. The carrier started at .310" thick and after just 4 shots was .305".

Here is a picture of the primers, recovered bullets, primer carrier, fiber gasket wads, and an unfired bullet.The two mushroomed bullets were obviously traveling at different speeds as evidenced by the mushrooms, even though all things were equal. I just don't see this NEF set-up working on conicals with BH209. If there was a plug available for just a bare 209, you could give it a fair shake. I won't hunt with anything that is not 100% reliable.

Notice the primers in order 1-4 from left to right. The first bullet turned inside out with a full mushroom, the second curled back around even with the base.



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Offline PHATINJUN

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Thanks for the report Busta gives more to think about. Kurt
Deceased 2/16/24
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/machesney-park-il/kurt-heckman-11671764

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Offline Hammerspur

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JEEZ, I take a few days off and miss this?

Busta, thanks very much for the testing and excellent posting of results!
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Offline ELMO

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  It sounds to me that you need to just use 209 primers with this powder, like what is in its name. Why keep trying to use something that will borderline work? I know it would be great to get away from primer holders but I haven't seen any progress on that issue. This powder might be good I don't really know, my 2 inlines are huntsmans. For me I really like the ignition that 209 primers give you. I'll probably stay with regular pyrodex in 2f or 3f.....Busta thanks for the informative post.     

Offline TheSuper

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Well, I finally got out and shot the NEF huntsman today with Blackhorn 209. The .25 ACP with standard small rifle primers (CCI 400) is not going to work as far as 100% instant ignition. In my preliminary report, I shot off hand at a puddle in front of my backstop, it seemed like it was instant ignition at the time. Today however, I shot off the bench and noticed a little lag in ignition, not hangfires, but a slight delay. I could actually hear the hammer fall a split second before ignition.

First up was some 240 grain XTP's and 90 gr BH209. The lag in ignition was very noticeable on the bench, but the first bullet clipped the bullseye at 8 o'clock. The next bullet hit 1-1/4" right of the bulls center and also had a very noticeable lag in ignition. The third bullet hit about 2" high and right of the bull opening up the group to 3", when all things considered is better than I thought it would be.



Next up was 240 grain T/C Cheapshots and 80 grains BH209, this is the same load I shot off hand out my garage door into the puddle in front of my backstop. The lag in ignition seemed to be less, but still noticeable on the bench. The 3rd shot in this group I had a FTF, after using a nipple pick to clean out the carbon in the flash hole I reprimed and had an instant ignition, the only shot out of six that seemed instant. The group was hardly any better at 2.81", and that concluded my testing with the .25 ACP plug and CCI 400 primers. I will get some Small Rifle MAGNUM Primers and give it another go sometime on down the road.



At this point I went back inside and swapped to the original Primer Carrier Breech Plug, and Winchester W209 Primers. I tried the 200 grain Shockwaves and 100 grains BH209, ignition was instant, but unfortunately the group was the worst of the day at 3.35".


A little frustrated at this point, I figured I would try the Knight 250 gr PBT's that shoot one hole groups out of my Knight Disc Extreme. They loaded so hard, that if I hadn't had my Knight Range Rod, I doubt I would have got them down the bore. Unfortunately they would not group with 100 grains BH209 and had a vertical 2.90" group.



Very frustrated at this point, I figured I would try something different, a heavier bullet and a lighter charge of powder. I got out the 300 grain SST's and 80 grains BH209. This load shows some serious promise and will get some follow up time at a later date. This was the best group of the day at 1.15", and they loaded much easier than the 250 grain Knight/Barnes and the 200 grain Shockwaves.



Overall, the .25 ACP is not going to get it done reliably with the standard Small Rifle Primers (CCI 400). The 209 Primer Carrier Ignition will get it done, but may take a little time to find the perfect bullet and powder combination. My barrel is only 24", and BH209 is a progressive powder which is more suited to longer barrels with the heavier powder charges. I would also like to do some testing with some heavy 460 grain conicals, but I think I will forgo trying them with the .25ACP.

This is the overall target, it was a 3 MOA day today for the most part.



I did use one new primer carrier today for the 9 shots, the blowback was surprisingly less than when using 777, but it washed .010" off the thickness of the carrier. A new one measures .310" thick, that one after 9 shots only measures .300" and was allowing more blowback at every shot.





I also saved some primers and sabots today. Most all of the primers flowed back as you can see, and the sabots were intact except for the 200 grain Shockwave sabots which are known to shed petals.



If someone would make a Breech Plug for bare 209 primers, he would have a winner for the NEF's with Blackhorn 209 Powder. Probably be hard to convince somebody to make some, now that the NEF ML's have been discontinued.

Busta-I'm new to this so please forgive my ignorance. You mentioned that the "Sidekick"ml has been discontinued (not the first time I've read this). I sent Remington an E-mail a couple of weeks ago and they replied that they had made no plans to discontinue this model (or continue it, either,for that matter) Just wondering where you got your info.

Offline Busta

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TheSuper,

It was discontinued for 2008. This has been common knowledge since at least December 2007. Not listed in the 2008 catalog, not listed on the H&R/NEF website, and not listed at Sport South and other distributors. Call H&R/NEF customer service on the toll free and ask them if you want.

I don't think Remington even knows what a Sidekick is, I am not surprised in their reply. Idjets!
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Offline john keyes

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Busta, excellent report and pics.

Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline Busta

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I got out today and shot some BH209 in the Huntsman with the .25 ACP using Small Rifle MAGNUM Primers (CCI 450). The good news is I had instant ignition using.44 cal (.429/.430) 270 grain Gold Dots and 300 gtrain XTP's in both the green Harvestor Crush Rib and the green Knight high pressure sabots. The bad news is the Hornady 350 grain FPB's had a delayed fire and a hang-fire, so I didn't even bother to try the 440 grain White Power Punch conicals. Both of these conicals shot great last weekend with the Hubbard 209 breech plug.

The groups I did shoot today were better than the previous groups (3") with the standard primers. The groups today were all shot with 80 grains BH209 and were between 1-1/2" and 2". Not great, but these were bullets/sabots I had not previously tested, so they may like 90 or 100 grains of powder better.
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Offline jrkrk

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Busta let me tell you what I did. I to have the 25acp conversion for my huntsman and what i did was take one of the 25acp brass  and file down the edges of the rim just enough to get the rim end to fit in the  acp breech plug. Now take a 209 primer fits right in the acp brass only problem is the brass is just a little to long and gun will not close with 209 primer. I took the brass and ran the opening just enough over a file that when 209 primer is inserted the gun will close.   Haven't tried it with powder or a bullet yet just a primer and it went off immediately and came out of brass case no problem ;)

Offline Busta

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Busta let me tell you what I did. I to have the 25acp conversion for my huntsman and what i did was take one of the 25acp brass  and file down the edges of the rim just enough to get the rim end to fit in the  acp breech plug. Now take a 209 primer fits right in the acp brass only problem is the brass is just a little to long and gun will not close with 209 primer. I took the brass and ran the opening just enough over a file that when 209 primer is inserted the gun will close.   Haven't tried it with powder or a bullet yet just a primer and it went off immediately and came out of brass case no problem ;)

jrkrk,

Great minds think alike, I also did the exact same thing a couple days ago, but we still have the problem of headspacing off the rim of the 209. It will work, but I am looking for a one piece plug that I can just pop a plain 209 primer into like the T/C breech plugs.

I also have a couple other conversion ideas that I am  going to be working on in the near future. I have a busy week ahead, so it won't be until after that.
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