Author Topic: 357 sig vs 45acp vs 357mag vs 40S&W (Read 11256 times)

jamaldog87 · « **on:** May 30, 2008, 05:08:20 AM »

On paper the 357 sig is the most power auto round but does it have better stopping power then the 45 or 357mag or 40 s%W? i have hear it's the only round that will drop a pit bull or Rottweilers dog with one shot.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2008, 08:38:30 AM »

I would ask the question "where is that one shot placed?". a .22LR in the ear will drop a pit very quickly, but a .45 in the gut may just slow it down. Are you looking for a sidearm to carry while hunting pit bulls or rottweilers?

Any and all of the rounds you have mentioned will get the job done if it is placed into the central nervous system (brain, spine).

teddy12b · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2008, 08:53:28 AM »

I've shot 3 or the 4 calibers, but only at range targets, nothing that bleeds. If you're debating between those calibers for a gun to buy, I'd recommend the 45acp. Sounds like the military is going to go back to it and it's popular because it works. If you're going to hunt something I'd pick the 357mag out of your choices.

Robert357 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2008, 08:22:17 PM »

Of the four ammo choices given, only one usually (I have seen half moon clips) is for revolvers. Since I hand load for a variety of handgun calibers (32Auto, 380Auto, 9mm Mak, 9mm Luger/Para, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, 44 Rem Mag, 45 Long Colt, and 45 ACP, I would like to pass on a couple of observations.

To handload ammo that will reliability work the action of a semi-auto requires a balancing act. The bullet weight and amount of powder need to be within a fairly narrow range for everything to work well. Usually, I will get problems with either too much or two little powder for a given bullet weight. When it comes to a revolver, then you can really go off the deep end, as long as you work up to it and look for overpressue signs and stop before you get too much overpressure. With a revolver, I can use really heavy bullets and take the powder pressure up to the maximum.

Of the four calibers, I would wager that I can take a good Ruger Blackhawk Single Action Revolver in 357 magnum and create a more potent round than any of the other 3 calibers fired in a semi-auto. Specifically, I have some 200grain 357 Mag Bullets loaded over lots of Alliant Hercules 2400 powder that I feel will stop just about anything. I think that these 357 Mag +P++ rounds are more potent than a 230 grain 45 ACP fired out of my M 1911-A1.

drdougrx · « **Reply #4 on:** June 01, 2008, 02:47:46 AM »

There's really no way to predict this unless you have data. The Sanow and FBI data is what needs looking at. Really....I'm sure 200gr 357+p+++ loads are awesome, but are they fight stoppers??? Do you know for sure???

They might be great for hunting which is NOT the same as fighting humans.

There is quite alot of data, by way of both actual shootings and police reports and lab testing, that indicates that the 357mag ( any brand really) with 125gr HPs at 1200-1400fps is a proven stopper if you can handle it. So isn't the 45acp and the 40SW. The 9mm comes in last in 1 shot stops. Though, the 9mm may be more lethal because of lower recoil and the greater chance of multiple hits by moderately trained shooters.

So....is the .357sig adequate or on par with the others....IMO....yep....shoot it well and it's as good as any.

gstewart44 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2008, 05:17:16 AM »

I believe the original question was what would provide one shot stopping on a pit bull or rottweiler. That would be "hunting" in my book even though the circumstances would be up close and personal (like in Africa, but on a smaller scale). How an animal behaves when shot is very different than when a human gets shot.

A pit bull or rotty that is enraged and intent on doing harm will very likely not register the effects of pain. A one shot stop will most likely need to connect with the central nervous system.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 02, 2008, 12:20:22 PM »

i am not talk about hunting(then i would use a rifle or 454) i am talk about just which one has the best stopping power on men and animals. I have hear very good things about the 357 Sig and it's stopping power on people on drugs . i want to know how it stand up to the 45 or 357mag or 40 s%W?

drdougrx · « **Reply #7 on:** June 02, 2008, 02:55:22 PM »

In the pharmacy I carried a 45acp with 230gr hydrashocks. That's the very best that I could do if I needed to. For what its worth, if they don't do it, then, its my time.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2008, 03:25:48 PM »

anything the 357sig can do the 9x23 can do better.

PaulS · « **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2008, 10:52:22 PM »

Only two handguns have ever been made to STOP a human:
the 45ACP was designed to stop a soldier in full battle dress and the 40 SW was designed to emulate the 45 ACP.
The others will go through a person unless body armor is being used and most 357 sized rounds will cause a lethal hit but will not stop a man. The bullet goes through so fast that unless the central nervous system is hit the man keeps on going.
Whe trying to stop a man with one shot you have a much better chance of success if you use a large caliber heavy bullet traveling at no more than the speed of sound.
The typical load for the ACP is 230 grain bullet at 850 - 900 fps - PERFECT

Having said that I could not get my Colt Combat Commander to function reliably with anything other than FMC bullets. I use my 357 because it functions every time - even with FMC bullets I would get 1 out of 100 rounds with the Colt not going off. Couldn't trust it won't carry it.
You guys may have had better luck with the auto but that is not my experience.

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2008, 12:49:37 AM »

'Only two handguns have ever been made to STOP a human' - Ooooops! How about the 455 Webley, the British 38/200 and, of course, our old not so favorite 9mm (and before that the 7.65mm Luger, the 30 Mauser) and, etc., in addition to the 45 acp and the 40

'I could not get my Colt Combat Commander to function reliably with anything other than FMC bullets'. Paul - we should talk about that............. A failure to discharge is not dependent on the style of bullet unless it prevents proper chambering.

JMTCW. Mikey.

teddy12b · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2008, 04:33:06 AM »

Geesh is this really going to turn into the old topics of "big bullet vs small bullet", "shot placement vs capacity", "my favorite is better than your favorite"?

jamaldog87,
This topic is going to get way off topic really quick, but before it does. Buy whatever you feel the most comfortable shooting or comes in whatever gun fits you and your wallet the best. If you're ever in a life & death situation, and I really hope nobody ever gets in one of these, but don't think of it as a one bullet stopping power thing. People have died from everyone of those bullets and with the selection of ammo you can make them all perform differently by what bullet you choose.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2008, 05:59:41 AM »

by FBI shooting statistics (i hate stats) the cartridge/load with the best 1 shot stop % is the 357 Remington Magnum with a 125gr JHP at 1450fps. Winchester 9x23 is loaded with a 125gr JHP at 1450fps. No shooting stats on it yet, but it is just a 357 built to run in an auto loader. Also the 9x23 in a 1911 platform is much easier to control than the 357/125gr in a revolver. The 9x23 will shoot heavier bullets at higher velocities than the 357 Sig.

You are mistaken about the 40S&W. It IS a shortened 10mm Norma. The factory 10mm loads were considered TOO powerful by the FBI so a shortened cartridge was developed with the added benefit of fitting in a 9mm Luger sized magazine/frame.

Regarding your Commander, you have a defective pistol. Either get a real gunsmith to get it working or dispose of it by sending it to me. I will get it working.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2008, 06:59:05 AM »

Jamal, go to this site. www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm sorry I do not know how to put it in so you can just click on it

Scroll down to the .357Sig article. It is enlightening.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2008, 07:00:48 AM »

funny, I did not know it would automatically make it a link. too cool

Robert357 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2008, 08:09:48 PM »

Quote from: PaulS on June 02, 2008, 10:52:22 PM

Only two handguns have ever been made to STOP a human:
the 45ACP was designed to stop a soldier in full battle dress and the 40 SW was designed to emulate the 45 ACP.

When trying to stop a man with one shot you have a much better chance of success if you use a large caliber heavy bullet traveling at no more than the speed of sound.
The typical load for the ACP is 230 grain bullet at 850 - 900 fps - PERFECT

I use my 357 because it functions every time

The reasons the M1911 is a 45 ACP is because of the Thompson-LaGarde Report finished in 1904. The research involved shooting human cadavers, live cattle/steers stags and horses. They looked at shock effects, soft part damage and bone damage. They did post mortem analysis of the live animals that were shot. They found that the 0.476 caliber 288.1 grain bullet had the most stopping power and that the 0.45 caliber 250 grains or the 218.5 grain 'cupped' (FMJ) bullets were of acceptable stopping power. Having read the report, I feel that what they really were saying is that "heavy bullets" especially ones that penetrate, such as FMJ, are better than lighter bullets.

Based on my read of the Thompson-LaGarde Report copy I have, I still think that a 200 grain, TMJ bullet from a 357 Magnum would have wiped up the competition.

As to statistics, the Brits felt that their 200 grain 38 caliber that replaced the .455 had a respectible combat record in regard to stopping power.

My 357 Magnum wasn't designed to stop a man, it was designed to stop the engine block of an automobile. That when coupled with good +P++ handloaded 200 grain bullets means "stopping power" to me.

PaulS · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2008, 09:09:47 PM »

Have you ever fired a bullet from a 357 at an engine block? I have it bounces! You DO NOT want to be in the way!
That is an urban myth. The 357 magnum is a hunting round meant to kill - not stop.
I too carry a 357 mag, I intend to kill if my life is in danger. Stopping is ok but I can shoot twice to stop the perp and he will be dead as he stops.

PaulS · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2008, 09:20:29 PM »

Quote from: Mikey on June 03, 2008, 12:49:37 AM

'Only two handguns have ever been made to STOP a human' - Ooooops! How about the 455 Webley, the British 38/200 and, of course, our old not so favorite 9mm (and before that the 7.65mm Luger, the 30 Mauser) and, etc., in addition to the 45 acp and the 40

'I could not get my Colt Combat Commander to function reliably with anything other than FMC bullets'. Paul - we should talk about that............. A failure to discharge is not dependent on the style of bullet unless it prevents proper chambering.

JMTCW. Mikey.

Mikey,
it has been shown that the 9mm will not stop a man - it can kill but it is not ballistically superior to the 38 spl +p. the 38/200 bounces off safety glass unless it is at a very low angle of attack, the 30 Luger is a 30 caliber 38 spl +p, and none of these weapons were the result of actual testing to stop a human - the 45 ACP and 40 were. all of these are able to kill - just not stop.
When I first got my Colt it would not return to battery after the first shot using Winchester factory ammo. I completely disassembled it, removed all the burrs from the action and got it to function fairly reliably with the factory ammo - 1 out of 100 would not allow the slide to return to battery. I did work up a load that was as reliable as factory ammo in it but never in a full year of testing got it to be 100%. I traded it for some new reloading gear and felt money ahead. I haven't owned another since and don't intend to.

williamlayton · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2008, 10:18:13 PM »

This little thought process is much akin too Sharoannes treatise on games guns.
I have too agree that a 9x23 on a 1911 platform is about the greatest control and firepower weapon there is---and nobody but the games folks ever take them serious.
The .45 is, HOWEVER; the absolute King (no slander sharonanne) of STOP---bar none, in a handgun. From my personal opinion, with some amount of prejudice, it would be better than the 9x23 in the body slam category.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2008, 02:14:11 AM »

PaulS: all those cartridges were designed as military handgun cartridges, which were designed to stop enemy soldiers. The 30 Luger never got the chance to go to war and was simply dropped in favor of the German military request for a heavier bullet to aid in battlefield penetration - the neck of the 30 Luger was lopped off to develop the 9mm Luger, which is said to be responsible for more dead enemy that any other caliber.

The 9mm stops men, plain and simple. It stopped a good number of men when fired from the Browning Hi-Powers I carried in SE Asia and has worked just as well in South America as well as on the streets. One thing I can tell you for certain is that the 9mm, in a combat situation facing armed opponents, needs multiple shots unless you are in perfect cover with perfect sight pictures and the truncated fmj is better at that than plain round nose ball.

The NYC police found, back in the 30s, that the 200 gn 38 spl police load is a good manstopper but didn't penetrate automobiles worth a darn - that's when they decided not to try and stop 16 guage steel body autos with 38 spls, but the 200 gn slug worked fine on the bad guys. Add the swc design to that bullet and it works even better.

And, unless I have slipped my wicket, the 40 short and weak was developed as a result of the FBIs determination for a reduction in the velocity of the 10mm slug, which penetrated too much and risked innercent peoples, much the same way the 357s 158 gn full power slugs did which is one reason for the development of the 'famed' 125 gn/1425'/sec load (which is what I load my 38 Supers to and why SharonAnne likes the 9x23).

Now, all this is in response to a guy who feels the need to use what I consider to be massive firepower to stop a dog. Every caliber he listed is way overpowered for canines and will most likely just blow right through them without causing much damage. However, something as small as a 32 auto with some expanding boolets will probably do the job well enough. JMTCW. Mikey.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2008, 04:59:09 AM »

there is one thing i must ask then. Why is it that the U.S. Secret Service , Air Marshall Service,The state troopers of Delaware, Virginia, Texas, New Mexico and North Carolina have all adopted the cartridge? i read somewhere this about the 357sig "Introduced to be an auto-pistol round with the wound ballistics of the top-ranked man-stopping 125 gr. .357 Magnum revolver load, the .357 SIG took the law enforcement world by storm. Enough feedback from the street now exists to determine whether the .357 SIG has lived up to expectations. When longtime gun industry exec Ted Rowe was at SIG, he lost count of the cops who came to him with one lament about swapping their old .357 sixguns for new SIG autos. They loved the guns, they said, but they missed the devastating stopping power of the legendary 125 gr. JHP that had become almost standard for their old .357 Magnum revolvers." if the Secret Service and cops use it then it must be a pretty good cal. One note, if i did have a CCW gun it most likely would be a 38,380, or a small 45acp because i would just need something that will do the job and fun to shoot.

SharonAnne · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2008, 09:28:27 AM »

I have found that police preference for a pistol in not much of an endorsement. Witness the police rush to the 2" S&W .38 when Broderick Crawford carried one in Highway Patrol. Next it was the S&W M-29 .44 Magnum because of Dirty Harry. Then the rush returned for the 10mm Norma/Bren 10 because Sonny Crockett carried one in Miami Vice. Yes, police preference is a very good endorsement, NOT!

Reading Jamals posts I see everything his opinions are based on is reading. Methinks he reads the wrong things. Get out and SHOOT. Hunt, find out what guns REALLY do. Not what some gun shop commando says based on the latest issue of Death and Destruction Monthly.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** June 04, 2008, 09:30:30 AM »

All will do the deed as good as the others if the shooter is up to the task !
Some are louder , some flash more , some look better on paper , some must expand others start big .
None can be depended on for one shot stops as long as a human shoots a living animal , but all may do so on a given day !
There is no perfect bullet or round , we just all have pets !

SharonAnne · « **Reply #23 on:** June 04, 2008, 09:58:02 AM »

Here here! Well said!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** June 04, 2008, 10:09:17 AM »

so whats your pet ?

SharonAnne · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2008, 03:27:36 PM »

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** June 05, 2008, 01:07:20 AM »

ANYONE
I like 40 something , 10mm , 40S&W or 45acp .

jhm · « **Reply #27 on:** June 05, 2008, 03:17:03 AM »

Sharon you forgot my favorite Efrim Zimbolist Jr. in the FBI with his snub nosed Colt Python he could shoot a bad guy off of a stair landing 200 yards away and the Python had NO RECOIL, I miss reallity T.V. Jim

SharonAnne · « **Reply #28 on:** June 05, 2008, 04:08:24 AM »

jhm you are correct, I did miss that one. I always wanted one of those 200 yd recoiless revolvers.

my pick, my Para P14. In a pinch my Para 9x23. The 9x23 is second because I don't want to be without it, in some police evidence locker, getting beat all to crap, while a bunch of strangers decide if what I did was what a 'reasonable person' would do.

teddy12b · « **Reply #29 on:** June 05, 2008, 04:17:02 AM »

I was at the range last weekend with my XD 45acp shooting at steel target at 25, 50, and 100 yards. The targets are just a little bigger than a regular 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. I almost felt kind bad because there was a guy shooting his 9mm and struggling to hit the target at 25 yards. I must have just been having one of those good days and I was plenty comfortable at 25 yards, then got good enough at 50 yards which made me cocky enough to shoot at the 100 target. I missed more than I hit at 100 yards, but at least I could scare something if nothing else. I did feel a little bad about having a good day in front of the guy having the bad day. On a happier not the guy could outshoot me with a rifle any day of the week from what I saw.