357 sig vs 45acp vs 357mag vs 40S&W

[jamaldog87]

Jamal again shows his 'knowledge' comes from reading magazines. Show me ONE department that has converted to 357sig.

let see i have said this before the  U.S. Secret Service , Air Marshall Service,The state troopers of Delaware, Virginia, Texas, New Mexico and North Carolina have all adopted the cartridge. I read the book of sig were they talked to lot of people who use the sig arms(380-45acp) and they mostly liked the 357sig for stopping power in a small gun(229). also there is no "kock down power" (unless it's a 105mm or a bus)only stopping power that was the first thing i learn about guns.  I posted this to see what you guys think about the 357 sig vs 45acp vs 357mag vs 40S&W. ALL of those have good stopping power and there powers and cons for all of them. Also if the 45acp was the best then there would be no need for the 357 sig or 40S&W or 45gap or any other cal. I would carry what i could find, ask lots of people and read about the cal., then buy it and shoot at the range alot with it.  I know of times when cops have shot people with deer slugs or 308win or buckshot and they have kept shooting back for a long time. it why the FBI got the 10mm a long time a go then the 40 S&W.

[bubbinator]

The FBI spent 10 million $ on the .40 cal w/ 180 gr. bullets to reinvent the 185 gr. 45ACP!  As a hunter/reloader/42 yr. cop (retired twice now + a stint as an Animal Control Supervisor) I've shot lots of dogs and game (no people except SEA and that was 5.56MM) the .357 works good, the .45 works better, but still where you hit counts most.  I had one dog run off from a gut shot w/ a 30-06 110 JHP @ 3100 fps that did not hit where I wanted it . You can carry lots more ammo in an autoloader so you have more chances to redeem poor marksmanship

[mcwoodduck]

Ok,
How and where to start.
The 357 sig has a few advantages. 
1 it is a bottle necked round that aids in feeding.
2 it will fit into a 9mm size frame.
the 357 sig is just a different shaped 38 Super.  Both throw a 9mm slug 100 to 150 fps faster than 9X19
The other cool thing is that you can just swap barrels with a 40 and have two guns in one.
The down side is you have two guns in one.  I have seen a lot of expensive 40 brass made out of 357 shells.
As far as 40 Vs 45.  Balisticly they are the same.  And again the .40 will fit in a smaller package than the 45 ACP.
What one works better?  All three have rounds that are in the high 80's to low 90% one shot stops. 
With any handgun round there is not a magic round that acts as a Phaser from star trek and vaporizes your target no matter where you hit it.  Personally I practice double taps.  If one round has a 85% one shot stop in a center mass hit, I plan to hit my target with 2 amking it a 170% double shot stop.
My suggestion is to rent a few different models and calibers at a local range and see what gun fits you best and what you enjoy shooting.
Personally I have a 40 and a 45 but really like my 9's.  Ammo is cheaper to practice with and the more you shoot the better your going to get.
When I was in college I had a 22 Browning and most of my friends had 9's and 45's.  On a budget when we would go to the range they would or beeter could only shoot a box or two and every one, after making fun of my 22 would end up shooting my 22 cause I could get 500 rounds for the cost of their 50.  There is not a pitbull out there that can suck up a 22lr in the right spot and keep comming.  Especally with some of the specialty rounds out there like the 60 grain Aguilla SSS or the CCI stingers.

[SHOOTALL]

the real ? is how many shooters can place that .22LR in the sweet spot on that he-- bent to bite you pit bull comming at full speed ?
maybe cost savings ain't the way to buy protection !

[mcwoodduck]

why do I always get sucked into these? Jamaldog has a way of asking good questions that gets everyone to argue with each other or worse with him.
Shootall,
Sorry your right.  I whole harted beleive in the Capstick " shoot the biggest gun you can well"  And yes a 380,38 special or even a 32 ACPwould be a whole lot better  than a 22.  But practice makes perfect.  The more you can shoot and get really good , the better you will be when you move up in caliber.  I was trying to point out that a 22 will work on critters.  Shot placement is everything, especally with animals, especally ones trying to poke holes in you. 
On the other hand I have used a Walther TPH (Picture a PPK, now picture one 5/8 the size) .22 to defuse a situation with an Irish Wolfhound.  I was happy to have the little gun in my shorts pocket and had I only one of my larger guns it could have been bad as I would not have had one with me in the heat.
Now I'm not telling him Jamaldog to get a tiny 22.  Get a full sized 22, like a browning or a ruger, shoot it a lot and then go buy a service caliber gun that will fit your needs.  As far as 9 Vs, 357 Sig Vs, 357 Mag Vs, 40 Vs, 45 ACP / Gap.  I don't think there is a better one.  All work, all have their advantages and features based on the size frame you want to stick it in.
McDuck 

[SHOOTALL]

I understand your pratice makes perfect idea. BUT in real life things go bad at the worst time . I am lucky in that i pratice weekly and seem to do well in the drills i pratice . That said I would not dream of using a 22 , 32 ( other than a 327 fed mag. and have not decided on that yet ) , 380 or other " light " rounds/guns .
The rounds listed would all work if the shooter does their part . They offer a bit of insurance , some more than others !

[mcwoodduck]

In the hot weather of Southern California the little guns are easy to hide and carry in shorts or sweats.  The large guns pull down the sweats or make it hards to cary anything with some real weight.  Fanny packs just scream GUN! I'd also rather have a tiny 22 with me than a 12 ga at home.
You also look real funny wearing a sweat shirt or light jacket in the heat.  Also sending up a red flag unless concelled is not your objective.
When I would take the dog on walks out in the boonies I was not so much worried about two legged critters but four.  Mainly Coyote attacking the dogs.  Had one Yote jump on the neighbors lab and try to eat it.  I did not feel under gunned when un savory types were walking along as well with any of my guns be they a 22. 32. 380, or 38spl. 
Although I was concerned with the 38 as it is a 2" Colt Det Spl.  When I shoot steel action with the 380 I can move steel plates, when I Shoot my 4" M10 or M28 with the same 38 Loads, they move the swingers.  The same loads out of the Det Spl do not.  I some times wonder if the 380 is not better than a 9X19 out of the sub compact frames.  After all the 380 powder choices are such that they burn up the charge in 3-4 inches of barrel.  The service class cartridges are picked for 4-5 inch barrels.  With a 3 inch barrel are you getting even 380 horse power out of 9, 357 sig, 40, or even 45 acp?
Like I said earlier, each round has it's advantages and disadvantages based on the frame you want to stick it in.

[SHOOTALL]

yea when i took classes years back i had a good instructor , he said that if you want to go well armed you would have to dress to do so and style would not always get it done . I don't wear sweats , Speedos or other skimpy outfits . the temp. gets to 100+ here and humidity is in the 80-90 most of the summer , did i say ya sweat around here ! Most of my work is outside . I wear jeans most of the time and carry a j frame S&W in the front pocket .
Its all about commitment to being ready all the time .

[Nasty Jack]

If you're talking about shooting dogs with a CCW handgun, your head is in the wrong place. Probably the rest of you is in the wrong place too.

These sorts of forums seem to attract a certain enclave of marginal who is looking to unload on something in order to gain some measure of vindication. Sixty years old here, never fired my gun in defense, never been physically attacked, never had a "mean dog" come after me.

"If you're taking a gun to places where you wouldn't go without a gun, you're going to the wrong places."

-- Little wisdom offered up by my CCW instructor.

[SHOOTALL]

NASTY JACK , LUCKY YOU !
I haven't had as sheltered life of 53 years .
beat once by 5 at school when being the wrong color was enough , taken knives away from someone wishing to cut me on 2 different occasions - one at work , shot at once by auto fire in down town Richmond Va. ( don't think I was target just in wrong place , was picking up parts for a job,next a  bullet hit my truck on I-95 as i was driving thru. Richmond Va. , had guns pulled on me once ,got lucky and got gun away from the guy HE WAS DRUNK , had guns involved several other times but avoided getting shot by having one myself.
Free advice - if someone wants to hurt you THEY CAN ! if you are to have a chance you better have your act togather and the best equipment you can with knolege of when  to use it and how ! And the place is of little importance STUFF happens everywhere .
did i mention my home was broken into once while i was home ( thank God for COLT )
And some guys tried to push their way in one other time ( I love that COLT )
And the best for last , had a guy sic his pitbull on my helper one day , then me -so me and S&W convinced him it was a bad idea .
Keep in mind Richmond was in the top 5 of cities for murder for many years , its a drug hub .
so if you have never had a close call or live where there is little crime - count your blessings !

[teddy12b]

Not trying to be a wise arse, but have you tried to move to a different city or get a different job?  If not, I'd give it some serious consideration.

[SHOOTALL]

Thats a good idea , and to be honest i have considered it . We moved out of the city and it has been nice . We also do not take calls in really Bad areas anymore . But it is hard to walk away from family , friends and a good business . Not trying to sound brave but at some point we have to stand our ground .
I hope if nothing else when i say a mouse gun isn't a great idea people realize that on one occasion i had a 32 auto and felt really under gunned and very scared !
Hey my mod. 38 S&W is a comprise to me !

[navylawdog]

Richmond, VA? Yep doesn't surprise me a bit. I didn't go to that place unless I had to. In fact when I used to drive home to Kansas from Hampton Roads I went the long way up and around the city. Not that Newport News and Portsmouth are exactly a walk in the park or a place where you would want to take one.

Navylawdog

[docmagnum357]

I have to agree with SharonAnne, go out and shoot something.  Personally, I carry .44 magnums, and the stupid myths about overpenetration are just that, myth.  A 180 grain hollow point of just about any brand will barely penetrate a small deer broadside.  They will mess up a bunch of the clock work on the inside, though.  brassfetcher.com has run tests on 180 grain xtps that barely penetrated 12 inches.  A 158 grain swhp + p 38 special ( the Fbi load) will penetrate further.  The difference is the permanent and temporary crush cavities.  44 mag looks a lot like a 30-30 or 7.62x39.  It actually has a better result than any .223 load.  But hey, some people can't shoot the magnums, for whatever reason.  I am a really big guy, and I do masonry work for a living.  I also own a farm, and I shoot an awful lot af varmints, rocks, sticks, and game.  I don't want any handgun that doesn't say "Smith and Wesson", and "Magnum" somewhere on it.

For what it's worth, I have shot stray,/ feral dogs with the above mentioned 180 grain load.  It works, right now.  I have also used a .357, but with the deeper penetrating 158 grain hollow point.  It works, too.    I have not shot dogs with anything else besides a 240 grain Keith style bullet at about 1150 feet per second.  It works.  I have shot deer with all of the above, and a 310 grain flat point in the .44.  They work.  Long and the short of it?  Shot placement, and a bullet that will penetrate to the vitals.  Period.  Faster, more fragile projectiles look impressive when an animal is shot broadside, and makes a hole you can see throgh, but it is hard to beat a semiwadcutter at a little over a thousand feet per second.  I have seen no real difference in the length of time it takes deer, coyotes, and feral dogs to expire between any of the magnum handguns and say, a 30-30 rifle.  If anything, they are a little more likely to lay down and bleed out with the handgun, and more likely top run with the rifle.

The reason I have pretty much switched to a heavier swc over hollow points is that the hollow points will sometimes expand, and sometimes not.  The last coyote I shot was a beutiful shot.  I saw her at about 60 yards, and raised my 629, and cocked the hammer, She started running, angling about 45 degrees toward the tree line.  I shot her straight thru the heart.  The bullet did not expand.  I shot a bull frog late this summer, hoping to get a mess of frog legs.  Bullet disentigrated, as did the bull frog.  I thought I had missed the first frog, so I shot another one.  Same result.  Disentigrated frog and bullet.  A good wide, flat point bullet will punch a big bloody hole in about anything, and it never blows up, even on bone.  That big, bloody hole is what kills, not a bullet that blows up, reguardless of how "cool " it looks.  Shoot the biggest caliber that you can hit well with, and that has a bullet capable of penetrating all the way through your intended target.  If you have to worry about hitting an inocent bystander, remember the coyote, hollow points don't always work. 

I have used 200 grain bullet in a .38 special, and find them to be wonderful, although i usually use  a 158 grain or a 173 grain swc.  I really like the looks of the Lee 158 grain round nose flat point.  I believe that at about 100 feet per second, it would be a good load for coyote, deer, or dogs.  Also good for two legged varmints. 

If I were limited to the $h!tty calibers above, I would choose the 40, with either a 180 grain or a 200 grain swc, or round nose flat point at about 100-1100 feet per second.  Second would be a .45 with the same type of bullet, at 850 feet per second.   Third would be the .357, and I would use a 158 grain swc, or the excellent 173 grain keith, loaded max.  I reall can't say about the .357 sig, because it was set up for light fast bullets.  If I had no other choice, i would look very hard a the DPX line, from COr Bon.  It would probably offer the deepest penetration.

Over penetration is a non issue.  You cant shoot if a woman with a baby stroller is between you and your target, and you can't shoot if a woman with a baby stroller is behind your target.  Learn not to shoot when you don't have a shot, get over it, and go on.  Hollow points, and even prefragmented crap loads like Glasers absolutely can't be depended on to make those pretty mushroom shapes in the real world.   

[Lee Robinson]

NJ,

I once had a rottie come discover me while I was hunting in a treestand while bowhunting in the middle of nowhere. Where did this stray rottie come from? My hunt was ruined because of an irresponsible owner. I was not going to sit there all day, waiting anylonger for the dog to go away as it barked for about 15 minutes and my patience was worn out. Now, I didn't shoot the dog, but I was about to...instead I got down and approached the dog. After running the dog off, I went back to hunt to another location, but everytime I would walk off, the dog would come after me growling/barking although in an insecure but forward manner. This went back and forth for a good 15 minutes or so. When I would turn and face the dog it would run off. I finally decided I would "approach the dog" in a slow steady manner and as the dog "backed up" I figured it would go home. (I train dogs and know most will go to a secure area when challenged). After about a mile walk, the dog's home was discovered and I spoke to the owner. I was polite, but I also told him next time I wouldn't be so kind.

My mother once was attacked by two yellow labs while walking on a golf course. Fault...irreponsible owner.

My sister, when she was a child, was once attacked by a stray chow. Fault...irresponsible owner.

My wife, when she was a child, had a dalmation come into HER back yard and attack her. Fault...irresponsible owner.

Now...I am less patient of irresponsible owners. If a dog is friendly, I will catch it and contact the owner if ID is on the dog. If it happens a second time, the dog will go to a sheltor. If there is no ID, it goes to a sheltor. If the dog is not friendly, it will be met with lead.