Model Cannon Help

[sh1bby69]

Hi there guys! Well I'm new to this forum and I am looking for your help.

Well I just go a cannon for my BDAY from an antique shop and it's a solid brass with some good weight to it. It also has a ramming rod. My question is how much BP is appropriate for this cannon. Here are the specs on it:

Ramming Rod:
-length: ~140mm
-diameter: ~10mm

Cannon:
-Inner Barrel
-length: ~137mm
-diameter: ~11mm
-Over all barrel
-length: ~180mm
-tip thickness: ~8mm (from the inside to the outside walls)

Here are pictures of it as well.







If you guys can help me out that would be great. Also if you have websites that have good references that would be great! I would love to fire it; mainly blanks.

Thanks!!!

[cannonmn]

It doesn't look like one that was intended for firing.  Having said that, the first thing to do is see if the bore is unobstructed all the way down.  Many of these small models had one-piece trunnions which was a shaft pressed into a hole that goes all the way through the barrel at right-angles to the bore.  Those can't be fired.

[Terry C.]

I looks to me like a bored casting and appears to have been fired before.

Closer inspection would be warranted.

I can't say "Don't fire it." But before you do, make sure there are no pits, voids, or cracks in the bore, and that it's solid in the area of the trunnions. You need to be sure that this barrel was not modified from a decorative piece, which was never intended to be fired.

And if you do fire it, 25 grains of FFg would be (in my opinion) the max for this type of barrel. That's less than the Swtlick chart recommends for a 7/16" (11mm) bore, but given the type and construction it would be best to err on the side of safety.

25 grains is plenty for a satisfying report.

I would NOT attempt to fire a projectile from this gun, period. It might be done safely, but then it might be extremely UNsafe, depending on the exact alloy and casting process. It's not worth taking the chance.

[sh1bby69]

It doesn't look like one that was intended for firing.  Having said that, the first thing to do is see if the bore is unobstructed all the way down.  Many of these small models had one-piece trunnions which was a shaft pressed into a hole that goes all the way through the barrel at right-angles to the bore.  Those can't be fired.

I looked through the barrel and there is no obstructions all the way down. The trunnions are the things that hold the cannon on the sides correct? Well those are separate pieces from the barrel that do not go through the cannon. They seem to be screwed onto the side of it. Also i attached what the barrel looks like using paint. The part where the wick goes is at an angle at the top part of the barrel.

[sh1bby69]

I looks to me like a bored casting and appears to have been fired before.

Closer inspection would be warranted.

I can't say "Don't fire it." But before you do, make sure there are no pits, voids, or cracks in the bore, and that it's solid in the area of the trunnions. You need to be sure that this barrel was not modified from a decorative piece, which was never intended to be fired.

And if you do fire it, 25 grains of FFg would be (in my opinion) the max for this type of barrel. That's less than the Swtlick chart recommends for a 7/16" (11mm) bore, but given the type and construction it would be best to err on the side of safety.

25 grains is plenty for a satisfying report.

I would NOT attempt to fire a projectile from this gun, period. It might be done safely, but then it might be extremely UNsafe, depending on the exact alloy and casting process. It's not worth taking the chance.

can you explain FFg and what are the trunnions exactly...I think I have an idea but want to make sure. From my inspections there aren't any pits, voids, or cracks in the barrel...I don't plan to shoot any projectile from it just want the effect and the sound.

[sh1bby69]

I found out what the trunnions are (i think). They are the part of the cannon that holds it up from the base and are on the center of both sides of the cannon. Also the part where the wick goes is called the "touch hole" and the very end of the cannon is called the "cascable".

[Double D]

That is a very interesting gun.  First glance and I was of the opinion that it was a decorative gun that someone bored out to shoot...something that  shouldn't be done. 

Visually this is a very neat looking little gun and if it were mine I would want to fire it. I would be proud to have this cannon.   However I would do some extensive  inspection before I would fire it, even if it's been fired before.  First, measure the diameter of the breech just in front of the vent where the fuse goes.  The diameter should be no less than 33 mm.  That is three times your bore diameter.  That gives you a minumum wall thickness of one caliber. 

 I don't believe you are U.S. based, but if you are, take your little cannon down to the nearest metals recycling or salvage yard and ask then to test it and tell you what the barrel is made of.  It does not appear to me to be brass, but bronze. Bronze is better.

11 mm is .433 inch caliber which is the diameter of a 44 caliber round ball.

It's always difficult to tell from pictures, but the barrel does not look like a casting...I can't see a parting line.  It could be a machined casting and the parting line was machined away.  Also the engraving on the carriage is cut and not cast.  Although the pictures realy don't show detail, it appears to be above average engraving.   This cannon just doesn't have the look to me of your standard table decoration.  There is just to much detail.  Is there any marking on the barrel or perhaps the bottom of the carriage?  The banner on the back of the carrige, does it have markings  or writing?  On the cheek pieces the rising sun symbols do they have any letters or numbers?

I think if it were me, just to be safe,  I would make a smooth bore liner from a solid piece of steel and put in this gun and shoot it!!!
 

[Terry C.]

DD, I think you may be right about the barrel being a machined part and not a casting. I saved the images to my computer so I could view them full-size (the downsizing can be unkind to photos).

What I originally took to be a parting line is actually engraving on the sides of the chase.

The gun and carriage are even more detailed than I first thought.

And even though it's been well cleaned, it's definitely been fired before. I can see the stains at the vent.

[dan610324]

first of all , if its cast with the lost wax method  there is no parting line
this is an extreme gun , the engraving is a bit naive , but very carefully done .
all details are extremely well done , cant be an mass produced decoration piece ,
more likely to be an cannon produced by an highly skilled craftsman .
by commercial reasons or because of an genuine interest we can never tell .
but my guess would be because of an genuine interest for cannons .
when it comes to the material quality I would guess bronze , but its almost impossible to be sure without having it in my hand .
lights and flash can make it look different in the photos , but it seem to be bronze , looks to dark to be brass .
its more red than yellow .
would be very interesting to check it with magnaflux or similar method to see if there is any signs of having the trunnions pressed into the barrel . or at least have the barrel free from the carriage .
if you enlarge the photos extremely much you can see that it doesn't have the perfection that an turned piece would have , at least that's my impression . any other ideas ??
the trunnions looks a bit suspicious for me , or maybe better to say the area between the trunnions and the tube .
I cant say if they are in one piece with the rest of the gun from the photos .
but if its an safe to shoot bronze barrel I would recommend you to use maximum 1,5 gram of ffg black powder .

    NEVER USE ANY OTHER POWDER        BLACKPOWDER ONLY

blackpowder are classified by granulation size from fg to ffffg

USING FFFFG OR ANY MODERN NITRO CELLULOSA BASED POWDER COULD AND PROBABLY WOULD CHANGE YOUR BEAUTIFUL ANTIQUE GUN TO AN PIPE BOMB .

if you not want to shoot it you still could have it as an extremely beautiful decoration , sometimes the shooting aint the most important.
hehehe , now I probably get banned from this forum   

[dan610324]

sorry folks

changed my mind after looking more at the enlarged photos , specially after looking at the photo taken from the back of gun .
it is probably turned , there is  no other reason to have the hole in the back of the cascable .

but its probably not only turned , if you look at the area where the trunnions are attached to the tube it seem to be flat .
I believe that area also have been milled . if so the trunnions probably are attached to the cannon in an threaded hole or pressed into place .

but Im not sure , please lets hear some more opinions

[Victor3]

 Another thing I'd want to determine before firing is if the back end of the barrel is a separate pressed in plug or not. It's probably turned from one piece judging by the center hole in the cascabel, but some little decorative cannons I've seen appear to be turned from tubing with a plug at the breech end.

 If it is one piece, I wouldn't hesitate to fire it with a light blank load if it were mine.

 Also (I know some would dissagree), the first order of business for me would be to break out the Brasso and make that little jewel shine

[dan610324]

why destroy an nice patina by polishing , it probably took 50 - 100 years for that surface to look as good as it does now . it will take 10 min to destroy it totally .

[Double D]

Brasso!! I suppose the next thing you want to do is paint it!!!   

[dan610324]

but you must be sure that you sandblast it properly before painting   

[sh1bby69]

WOW  So much info and so much interest! I believe you guys are right on being bronze instead of brass...I think i originally meant to type in bronze. If you guys need better images I can send them your way.

I took the cannon apart to better provide you with pictures of the actual cannon and the trunnions. The trunnions are screwed into the barrel.

As for the breach is about 110mm so it's more than 3x thicker than the bore diameter.

As for painting it....I think I'll keep it how it is...I think it gives it it's character and knowing me I'll probably ruin it...haha

Let me know if you need anymore pictures

[dan610324]

I got to ask you where you are located ??
its so nice to see someone using mm , its not often that happened here   
those bloody americans havent learned it yet  ,  now I get banned for sure  ;-)

but back to your lovely cannon again .
take the measurement from flat side to flat side where the trunnions are , then you measure the depth of the holes , just to know how much of the barrel wall you got left there .

if the wall thickness is approximately 0,75 caliber I would say that the gun is safe to use .

it still could be safe to shoot with blanks even if the wall is thinner .

if the circumference is 110 mm it mean the diameter is 35 , that gives well over one caliber wall thickness , but also remember to check how deep the bore is , that you are sure to have enough material in that end of the gun .
tell us the results

[dan610324]

sorry forgot to say  : 

WHATEVER YOU DO , NEVER THINK OF POLISHING OR PAINT IT .

then its better to buy an small new made cannon and polish that one .

[dan610324]

just another thing I got to tell you , the muzzle area looks very northern european for me , german , danish , norwegian or swedish maybe . and that design I would put at early 1600 .

ok the gun is of course of an much later date , the aiming screw will put it mid 1800
production period could be anything from mid 1800 up to today .

would be very interesting to have an extreme close up at the threads on the trunnion .

[Double D]

I see something!!!  Is the bore rifled or does it have a polygonal-hexagonal  bore.

[jeeper1]

That is a very impressive little cannon.

[dan610324]

now I got to change opinion again   
after I have enlarged the photo of the carriage with one side removed ,
there it looks to much yellow to be bronze , must be brass .   or ??
anyone else with some comments ??
or am I the only one who not are afraid to make a fool of myself   
if you look at the u shape to the left at that picture you clearly can see that its made by hand with an file .

nooooo DD , its as smooth as a baby's a backside

[Double D]

I copy and enlarged the picture and you are right, Dan smooth bore.

[sh1bby69]

Double D I live in SoCal haha but I am or will be a nurse so I use mm and also I thought it was easier to use.

I have a few more questions!! I love this little thing and I really just want to fire blanks from it and I was wondering where I can find wicks or fuses for it or if I can make them myself and also about the wadding paper, will toliet paper work out or do I need wadding paper... I already bought FFg muzzelloading powder Pyrodex.

[Terry C.]

I think you're going to be extremely disappointment with the Pyrodex. Black powder substitutes burn much differently than real black powder.

Pyrodex and other subs work well for their intended purpose, hunting and target shooting with modern black powder replica firearms. Without the back pressure of the loaded projectile, they burn very poorly and have little to no report. Even if you do manage to get a wimpy 'pop' out of the Pyrodex, it simply doesn't compare to the effect of the Holy Black.

You need real black powder, the same formula (charcoal, sulfur, potassium nitrate) that has been used for centuries. Anything else is an insult to this fine cannon.


Black powder is available and the end result is well worth the hunt. You can buy black powder online and have it delivered directly to you, but that requires a minimum 5-pound purchase (about $100 including HazMat shipping charge).  Single cans can still be found but new regulations on retailers have made it extremely difficult for small stores to stock BP. If you can, get a couple of friends to split a shipment with you. I use powderinc.com but ther are other sources that sell BP online.

Fuse, on the other hand, is cheap and does not require HazMat shipping. Go to cannonfuse.com  or skylighter.com. There are different diameters available, so make sure you order fuse that will fit your vent.

[Double D]

You should be able to find 44 call felt wads in most gunshops. Put  your fuse in the vent, add 40 grs. of ffg and ram a wad wad over the top of the of the powder.  Fire!

[GGaskill]

I, too, live in socal and could give you some real black if you don't want to spring for a whole can.  Last time I looked, it was less than $15 and Angeles Shooting Ranges.

[sh1bby69]

I, too, live in socal and could give you some real black if you don't want to spring for a whole can.  Last time I looked, it was less than $15 and Angeles Shooting Ranges.

cool...I'll probably hit you up later on...where you located? i'm in the south end of orange county.

well I fired the cannon and it was pretty cool. 25gr or 1.6grams was a nice little pop with no kick but then we added about 2.5grams and it had a little nice recoil. I'll record the next time I fire it. It was pretty cool.

Thanks for all your help guys! I want to take it to an antique convention or something to see where and when it was made and maybe an appraisal. But this cannon is solid and nothing but awesome comments from it!.

[dan610324]

Im sorry to tell, but probably not anyone could tell you where or when it was manufactured.
only if you got any markings under it .
probably early 1900 if I should guess

Im almost sure you not got any marking under it , because it seem to be to many hours put behind the production to be an commercial made cannon . my guess is an enthusiast as us here who made an extremely good job .

thats also an little recommendation to all manufacturers
stamp your  products beneath with name , year and city that would help a lot 200 years in future when people have the same question about their guns as we have about this one now .

[Victor3]

I, too, live in socal and could give you some real black if you don't want to spring for a whole can.  Last time I looked, it was less than $15 and Angeles Shooting Ranges.

I paid ~$19 last time I bought some there a few months ago...

[Victor3]

now I got to change opinion again   
after I have enlarged the photo of the carriage with one side removed ,
there it looks to much yellow to be bronze , must be brass .   or ??
anyone else with some comments ??
or am I the only one who not are afraid to make a fool of myself   
if you look at the u shape to the left at that picture you clearly can see that its made by hand with an file .

nooooo DD , its as smooth as a baby's a backside

 Probably much easier to tell if some of that 'paint-eena' were scraped off with a putty knife and some 60 grit sandpaper

 shibb69; here's how your cannon will shine if you polish it up to remove that ol' cigar smoke damage off of it - Behold me loverly thundermug...








 All joking aside, it looks great as is. However, I doubt that polishing it will remove much (if any) of its value.

 Again, to each his own; I tend to like my brass/bronze thingies shiney. Others think of removing tarnish as blasphemous.