Model Cannon Help

[Double D]

There is no tarnish on that cannon,  It is covered with a nice uniform, patina.  Patina serves as a protective coating to keep the metal from tarnishing.   If you polish the gun and remove the patina it wil take years to recover it.  Also if you polish it you will constantly be battling tarnish. Every time you touch it, the acids in the  oils from your hand will tarnish the polished metal.  The smog/salt  in the lovely California air will tarnish the piece.  If you polish the gun you will  find that you will have to constantly repolish it.  Every time you fire it the powder residue will stain and etch the smooth shiney metal.

But there is a more important  reason to not polish this piece, the engraving!  Although this is not high grade engraving, the engraving is part of the charactor of this gun.  Polishing compounds, all of them, contain abrasive material,  Polishing this engraving will slowly wash it out and remove it.

Another down side of polishing this gun is that if will be extremely difficult to do a full and complete job.  The gun will have to be fully and completely disassembled and you will have to use pipe cleaners and q-tips to get in all the knooks, cranneys and holes. It will be very labor instnesive.   This gun I would simply wash in hot soapy water, rinse and dry throughly so water doesn't leave spots.

Bottom line, its your gun, do what you wish.

I think your gun is 20th Century and came out of some brass workers shop on la frontera a Mexico.  It is a keeper and as I said I would have it in my collection

[sh1bby69]

I think it would look cool polished but I think it'll take away from it's character.

I'll try to post videos of this cannon in action. I wish i had Black Powder but the Pyrodex works. I was hoping for the nice little white smoke cloud...haha but it's pretty cool still.

[Double D]

If you fired pyrodex in that cannon be sure you scrub it good with hot soap and water---pyrodex leaves a very corrosive residue. 

[dan610324]

yeah I must agree to your idea of shining brass and bronze , its extremely beautiful .

but only to new produced things , not to an antique piece   

[Terry C.]

I agree, keep it clean but leave the finish as-is.

I wish i had Black Powder but the Pyrodex works.

Maybe so, but once you go black you'll never go back...

FWIW, I could never get Pyrodex to do much of anything. I guess I'm spoiled.


And I need to repeat what has already been said, when you shoot Pyrodex in this gun, clean it ASAP! Pyrodex fouling is extremely corrosive.

[dan610324]

I know that pyrodex is an modern substitute for black powder , but whats the ingredients ??

[Terry C.]

Don't know what's in it. Whatever it is, it's nasty stuff. The motivation behind the creation of Pyrodex was to make something that would work in black powder firearms, but be safer to ship and store than black powder.

Easy cleanup was apparently not a consideration.

How 'safe' it is, is a matter of debate. Nothing is idiot-proof.

[Terry C.]

Not long after I first came here, I wrote something along these lines. I'm going by memory here so it might not be an exact quote, but I think you'll get my meaning...

"A cannon has needs. It needs to smoke. It needs to stink. It needs to be scrubbed with hot soapy water at the end of the day. It'll never be happy with anything other than black powder."

A cannon needs to be happy.

[sh1bby69]

how would i clean it? Just soapy water?

[dan610324]

thats good to know , I have  never used pyrodex , and after this info I will never do it either .

[Terry C.]

If you've fired it and haven't cleaned it yet, please do so as soon as possible. Black powder and Pyrodex residue are both hygroscopic, they will absorb moisture from the air. The fouling reacts with the moisture and becomes corrosive. Pyrodex is, of the two, the worst offender, but black powder is not far behind. A gun fired with either one should not be left uncleaned for very long.

Go to a sporting goods store, or the sporting goods section of your Wal-Mart or K-mart, and get yourself a wool mop, .44 or .45 caliber whichever they have. And if possible, a nylon cleaning brush. Metallic brushes shouldn't be used in a brass or bronze barrel, for obvious reasons. The mop alone is sufficient for BP cleanup, just work it a little more. My ¼-scale Napoleon has never seen a bristle, simply because no one sells a brush the right size.

The cleaning regimen for Pyrodex is the same as for black powder. Water with a good brand of dish detergent is the formula, and HOT is best. Your gun is small enough that getting enough hot water is not a problem. Scrub it good, then rinse clean. Then scrub it again.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Just like shampoo.

Nitro powder solvents won't work. There are some ready-mixed cleaners for black powder but they are mostly soapy water, with some nasty additives like ethylene glycol (antifreeze). I have a bottle of Black-Off that has been use once and will never be opened again. And because it's toxic waste, I can't just pour it out.

Get some pipe cleaners for the vent. Use Dills or whatever other brand you can find in the tobacco section of your supermarket or drugstore. DON'T use the decorative pipe cleaners from a craft store, some of these will disintegrate in hot water.

A little white vinegar soak beforehand will be good if it's sat for a day or two.

Oil is useless as a cleaning agent for BP and Pyrodex (don't know about the newer subs) because the fouling won't dissolve in oil. It will delay corrosion temporarily (it blocks out the moisture), if you have to put off cleanup, but then you have to get the oily mess out of the barrel. This is where a good grease-cutting dish detergent (Dawn or Ajax) comes in handy.

Properly cleaned and dried, your gun should require no oil, but it won't hurt it either.

[Terry C.]

Dan, I don't want to come off sounding like a hater. Pyrodex and the other subs definitely have a niche market and for what they do, they do it well.

For cannon use, I consider Pyrodex a last-resort propellant. I would use it again if, and only if, I couldn't get anything else.

Some of the newer subs claim easier cleanup and a less corrosive residue, I can't comment on this since I have no experience with them.

My own distaste for Pyrodex comes from my personal experience with it, and it should (as with most of my tirades) be taken as an informed opinion, not a statement of absolute fact.


So, having said my piece, enough about propellants. I never meant for this to be a thread hijacking (arrrgh!).

We should now return to the discussion of this fine cannon!

[dan610324]

one easy and good way to protect your guns after shooting is to use some cheap penetrating rust oil , but this is only an first protection to dont let the powder residues start absorbing moisture from the air , the residues with some moisture will become sulphuric acid .
I dont know what corrosive ingredients in pyrodex , but its never an mistake to soak the barrel in some penetrating oil , but be sure it dont have any acid content , some of them have so to easier penetrate the iron oxide , but as long its acid free its an good short time protection .

BUT ALWAYS CLEAN IT CAREFULLY IN HOT  WATER AND DISHING DETERGENT .

SO NOW WHEN YOU USED THAT BEAUTIFUL CANNON , BE SURE YOU TAKE CARE OF IT

when I shoot my 1858 Remington I just take the wood away and take the cylinder away from the frame , then I boil it with some detergent . when its cleaned and rinsed with vater I boil it again in pure water , then when the parts are taken up from the water they are that hot that they will dry directly without any chance of rusting , when dry I oil it when its still hot it makes it easier for the oil to penetrate into all areas .

ok thats was a bit of topic   

but the bottom line is that you should take good care of your cannon after shooting
and to soak it in penetrating oil is an good start , many times you maybe not having time or posibilities to give it an good cleaning directly after firing the cannon .

[Double D]

The residues left from firing Pyrodex contain chlorides---salts.

Pyrodex needs a minimum pull to build a proper pressure to expell a ball.  If you are using a small guns under one inch and patching or using an over powder wad you should be just fine.  Cannon loads with pyrodex also should also be lesser than standard handgun or rifle loads. What ever the recommended  BP load is for cannon use the same volume of pyrodex.

My advice is take the extra time and effort and find or order BP.

[sh1bby69]

thanks for the help guys!! Last night I scrubbed it down quite a bit. Took most of the residue off but there is still some left. When i get a chance I'll head down to the sports store and get a cleaning set and some cleaning oil. I don't want anything to happen to the cannon cause it's soo beautiful. So i hope the 2 1/2 days of not cleaning didn't hurt it too bad...

[dan610324]

this is an typical good example of when it would have been nice to have an aerosol can of non acid rust penetrating oil at home   

[sh1bby69]

alright guys well i picked up a gun cleaning kit and the nylon brush .44-.45 size. I ran it under some hot water and there is still some residue in the barrel but not a lot. Is that okay or do I need to remove every little bit of it. Also I was going to pick up some cleaning solution at Big5 they had a Smith and Wesson one which was safe on all surfaces and there was another one which was called Break Loose or Break Away in a black can...is it safe for me to use that to try and remove all or majority of the residue fom the pyrodex? This is like my 1st fire arm if you want to consider this one and I honestly want to keep it in the best shape possible.

thanks for all your help guys!!

[Terry C.]

Cleaning solutions for modern smokeless (nitro) powder won't work. Stick with the hot soapy water. Use a good dish soap, I'm partial to Ajax myself.

If you've cleaned it thoroughly, what you're seeing may not be residue but a stain etched into the metal from 2½ days of not being cleaned.

If so, this will fade as the gun is repeatedly fired and cleaned.

Remember, soapy water first, then oil.

Oil will not clean out a barrel, it will not dissolve the residue.

It will delay corrosion temporarily until the gun can be properly cleaned. But then the oil/residue sludge will have to be removed with...


.. you guessed it, hot soapy water!


BTW: Break Free is an excellent oil, it's what I use. And did you remember the pipe cleaners for the vent?

[dan610324]

terry is right
hot soapy water , the hotter the better
and the oil is absolutely not for cleaning , but are good to use if you believe it will take some time between shooting and cleaning .
when its clean and dry you will just oil it a little also , ok Im not sure if it does anything for an copper alloy barrel , its just an old habit from the steel guns   

[sh1bby69]

i still need to go out and get a pipe cleaner...i'm having a hard time finding it.

[jeeper1]

Pipe cleaners are readily available at wally world at the register where they sell cigarettes, just ask.

[Cannoneer]

sh1bby69, I don't remember where I copied these pics from, I think it was from an eBay private auction house but this is the info I took from the site: Engraved steel 13.5" long 19th century. I would guess your gun was either made by the same craftsman or if each cannon is made by different craftsmen then one of them certainly had intimate knowledge of the others work. What caught my eye originally was the unusual design of the carriage, the wealth of detail and the nicely done amateur engraving; I'd never seen another gun quite like this one (until I saw yours). The brass U.S. Great Seal medal (or pin) attached to the front transom looks to be original with the piece, which might suggest it was made by an American machinist in the 20th century. If this gun was listed on an eBay private auction, it would have had a low and high estimated worth given and if thats the case, I didn't make a note of it, probably because those estimates sometimes seem farfetched but if I was lucky enough to own one of these guns I would certainly hang on to it, I really admire them.

                                           

                                           

[sh1bby69]

sh1bby69, I don't remember where I copied these pics from, I think it was from an eBay private auction house but this is the info I took from the site: Engraved steel 13.5" long 19th century. I would guess your gun was either made by the same craftsman or if each cannon is made by different craftsmen then one of them certainly had intimate knowledge of the others work. What caught my eye originally was the unusual design of the carriage, the wealth of detail and the nicely done amateur engraving; I'd never seen another gun quite like this one (until I saw yours). The brass U.S. Great Seal medal (or pin) attached to the front transom looks to be original with the piece, which might suggest it was made by an American machinist in the 20th century. If this gun was listed on an eBay private auction, it would have had a low and high estimated worth given and if thats the case, I didn't make a note of it, probably because those estimates sometimes seem farfetched but if I was lucky enough to own one of these guns I would certainly hang on to it, I really admire them.

                                           

                                           

that is very awesome!! Mine looks exactly like that except a few differences. Mine is also missing the cleaning rod as well but still that is really cool information. Do you know where I can find more info on it?

[Double D]

You guys need to get your magnifing glasses out out.  Engravers often sign their work in unobtrusive places.  Look at endings or edges, or places that would not distrub or lack symmetry.

[Cannoneer]

I'm sorry, thats all the information I have on it.