help with a 45C hard cast load

[irold]

Afternoon , Gentlemen
                           
                                I ordered some 270 gr hard cast from Hunters Supply , 45 Cal , .452.  Thought that would be a good  bullet to start out with.  Now I can't find much , if any data for it.  It is a plain base ( no GC ) with a SWC style nose.  Lubed in one ring , of course.  I'd like to move it around 1000 fps , hopefully it won't " lead up " at that speed.  Also , I have 2400 , W296 , and Unique on hand.....I'd probably like to start out with 2400 , it seems to be a little more foregiving on low end loadings.  I have two new manuals , a Hornady and a Speer , neither of which shows any cast loadings for anything close to the bullet I'm using.  Any suggestions , I realize internet loadings are sometimes a little "off" ,,,I'd at least like some ideas.   Thanks , IROLD

[jd45]

MORE INFO NEEDED!!! You don't say what platform you intend to run the loads in. Brian Pearce did an article in Handloader Magazine a while back using the RCBS 270SAA bullet designed by Dave Scoville.........three pressure levels: 14kpsi, for ColtSAA-types & clones;  20kpsi, for later model USFA SAs & S&W 25s;  & 32kpsi, for Rugers. Go to Riflemagazine.com & call Wolfe Publishing & buy a copy of the past issue with Brian's article & you'll be well on the way to building safe loads for your gun. jd45

[irold]

Big Boo Boo...........sorry, My intended use will be in a 7 1/2" , SRH 454 , and a 12 "  Encore barrel in the same caliber , 454.  The 45 C is a lot easier to practice with , and is plenty of gun for my intended quarry...whitetail

Thanks , jd45 ,  That was Mays issue of Handloaders Mag ??  I really wasn't looking to 44 mag performance , just a good solid load that will do for deer and general shooting with the 270 gr cast .....IROLD

[warrior1]

try 8-9 grs unique for 45 loads with cast lbullets.  go to hogdgon's site they have a load guide on line. also alliant powder has load info on line. i'm sure you can step that load up a bit once you get rolling. some of the manuals have a ruger & t.c. only section. i'm not near my manuals at this time ,but i'll double check later and get back to you. dan.

[Lone Star]

If you want low velocities like 1000 fps, hard cast is not the best way to go.  You are much more likely to lead your handguns when you use hard bullets at low pressures.  Hard bullets are best used for high pressure loads.  By all means try your bullets, you may or may not get leading depending on how hard they really are.  If you do get leading, increase the powder charge until it stops, or use a faster powder to build the pressure.


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[LaOtto222]

I would start with about 9 grains of Unique or 15 grains of 2400. They will get you into the ball park. If you have a chronograph, then find out where you are at and adjust your loads.

[John R.]

I use a 270 gr. SAA bullet by Montana Bullet Works. I use 13 grs. of HS-6 for 1000 fps. This is out of a Ruger Bisley with 5.5" bbl. I shot a 5 shot group yesterday that went 1 1/2" @ 25 yds. (3 of them were in a 3/8ths" cloverleaf.)

[irold]

Thanks , Fellas........Lone Star, That one threw me , I would've thought just the opposite , higher velocity more lead.....I'll keep that in mind , and watch for it.

John R ,  do you have some sort of data for your 270 FAA ?  I'd prefer to use 2400 or unique or even 296, since I have and use those powders a lot anyway.  Thought maybe your data would give some sort of starting load with one of those powders ??


LaOtto,  Thats one of my problems  no chrony.......I do know about pressure signs...but I'd rather not jump  over my head....Ya think 15 grains of 2400 with a CCI 300  would be a starting point for that 270 cast bullet ?  Can I use the data for 300 grain cast and back them off by a grain or two ??   

I've checked about all the on-line information I can find , either info on 255 or 300 of bigger ,  Nothing on a 270 or 275 cast.

Thanks for the info... IROLD

 

[jd45]

Irold, the issue is Handloader #246 from April, 2007. I also bought some of those SAAs from Montana & they are 15 on the hardness scale. You do NOT want to use 296, as it is a maximum effort powder. Either Unique or 2400 will be much more suitable for the 1000fps you want...........I use both but 2400 is as flexible as Unique for less than top-end loads. 296 & its brother H110 is a magnum performance only powder........& you're cautioned against reducing the recommended charges. BTW, there's a second article in that issue about cast bullets for sixguns..........money well spent if you buy it! jd45

[jd45]

I forgot to mention something. Put one of your bullets on your scale & see what it ACTUALLY weighs. I don't know who made them but the SAAs weigh 284grs, but are advertized as 270grs...........that's gonna make a significant difference in how much of any powder you use. jd45

[Lone Star]

........Lone Star, That one threw me , I would've thought just the opposite , higher velocity more lead.....I'll keep that in mind , and watch for it.

It seems counter-intuitive and goes against what many have believed for years - but if one understands what actually causes leading, it makes good sense.  The CBA (Cast Bullet Assn) proved long ago that most leading is caused by gas blow-by melting lead off the sides of the bullet on its trip down the bore.  Hard bullets will skid just a bit as they enter the rifling, widening the engraving and allowing gas by.  Softer bullets will slug-up to fill the widened grooves in the bullet, hard bullets may not.  The trick is to match the bullet hardness to the pressure of the load - the higher the pressure, the harder the bullet.  Dave Scovill at Handloader magazine published a formula for this in the early 1990s, but apparently few casters read it.  Had they done so, they'd have saved themselves a lot of leading problems.

I proved it myself prior to Scovill's articles in my .45LC BH.  I cast up some 250-grain Lee bullets out of wheelweights and various charges of Unique.  IIRC I started at 7.5 grains and went up 1/2 grain at a time.  The groups were not too good with the low loads and leading was evident, but as I increased the charge level accuracy improved - as did the leading.  By the time I reached 9.5 grains, the leading had disappeared and the accuracy was stellar.....

Today "hard cast" bullets are all the rage, with commercial casters giving the handloader what he thinks  he wants.  In reality he'd probably be better off with softer bullets for most uses, even for hunting.  Many "hard" bullets are alloyed so that while they are 'hard', they are also very brittle and will shatter on bone.


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[John R.]

JD45, the 270 SAA's I bought weighed 281 grs. I shot some of them with 24 grs. of H-110 and leading was not an issue. The 13 grs. of HS-6 was more accurate and pleasant to shoot. I'm sure you can use Unique and 2400 with no problem. The articles mentioned in Handloader magizine are where I got my load data. They did one article on just the 270 SAA bullet, and a couple more on 45 Colt loads. You can also look up John Linebaugh's article Dissolving the myth; Discovering the potential, it's a must read for 45 Colt owners.

[jd45]

JohnR.... well, I guess it depends on whose mold they're dropping from, doesn't it? I tried the Hs-6 load.........I think max is 13.5 & IIRC, it was punishing...........I couldn't stick with it long enough to determine whether it was more or less accurate than loads with other powders. I'll take your word for it, & my hat's off to ya for bein tuff enuff to hang on to your pistol shootin those HS-6 loads. BTW, I shot mine out of a USFA SAA............maybe the lighter weight of it was a factor in the beating I took. What do you think? I'd appreciate your feedback. jd45 

[jd45]

JohnR,...........P.S...........thanx for the tip on the Linebaugh article. I've read it & there's a wealth of knowledge in it! Thanx, jd45

[John R.]

JD45, I'm pretty sure my Bisley is more pleasant to shoot the HS-6 load than your SAA, because of weight and grip style. Actually the I consider the HS-6 load to be a medium load as compared to top end H-110 loads. Try 6.0 to 6.4 grs. of titegroup out of your SAA. These loads run 800 to 850 fps and are extremely pleasant to shoot. I bought those 270 gr. SAA bullets from Montana Bullet Works. I plan on buying more, as they shoot great out of my Bisley.

[irold]

Lone Star ,  Kinda goes against all my prior thinking , but it does make sense....and your testing proved it   Thanks to all ,....BTW I finally did find some data in an old Contender loads book , under the alliant powder section.   Thanks again  IROLD

[jd45]

Thanx JohnR, I'll try it. I bought some of those in .454" as well for my EMF Hartford SAA with .454" grooves & throats. It'll be interesting to see how they shoot in it. jd45

[jd45]

JohnR.............here's a P.S. I recently acquired a Ruger Acusport Bisley convertible in .45 COLT/.45ACP, which will enable me to try that HS-6 load with the 270SAA again. Results will be posted asap. Can't wait to try it! jd45

[irold]

Just a follow up for those that are interested........I finally settled on 275 gr. from Hunters Supply , with 20 grains of 2400. (loading for the 45 Colt )  That seemed to shoot the best through my SRH.  I tried 9 , 10 , and 11 grains of Unique.......it just didn't seem to like the powder.  With the open sights at 25 yd its shooting 2-21/2 groups....with my eyes..that's as good as its gonna get.  With no chrony, I really don't know my FPS.....would any of you experienced with 45 Colt loads care to guess ?  I'm thinking maybe around 11-1200 ?  That particular bullet has a big wide flat nose...ought to create a lot of "shock and awe" !  Wanna thank everyone for the help, whata site !   IROLD

[LONGTOM]

I agree with JOHN R on the use os HS6. I use 12.5gr with a 255 grain hard cast in serveral of my RUGERS and also in my 94 trapper. They are very accurate and not really that bad in the recoil department. I have used Unique also with good results but it is a dirty powder. For the full house loads in a RUGER it's hard to beat H110 but they will shoot a RUGER loose if you shoot a lot of them and they can be a handfull!

LONGTOM

[Lone Star]

For the full house loads in a RUGER it's hard to beat H110 but they will shoot a RUGER loose if you shoot a lot of them...

Ditto on that.  My 1973-vintage BH has digested many thousands of H110/W296 loads, and it is pretty loose.  I sent it to Ruger a decade ago, and all they did was reduce the cylinder gap and pinch the barrel while doing that!  Now that BH leads with loads it never did before, and I am limited to jacketed bullets in that revolver.  I should send it off to a custom Ruger smith to get it right, but just haven't had the notion, time or funds....



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[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot zillions of hardcast bullets at a 1000 fps out my guns and never had a leading problem. Ive shot pure lynotype bullets as slow as 700 fps with absolutely no leading. If  a hard cast bullet is leading your gun at low velocitys you have a problem with your gun that needs correcting. For a 1000 fps with the powders you have try 9.5-10 grains of unique or 15-16 grains of 2400. With the 2400 at such low pressures it may be a touch hard to light off consistantly and you might want to experiment with a mag primer for  accuracy. MY favorite two loads at a 1000 fps with cast 250s are 10 grains of herco or 9.5 grains of power pistol. Dont be conserned about using hard bullets. Back in the day of bullseye shooting being the in sport with handguns most all of the top competitors used straignt linotype in there loads. Its harder and engraved the rifleing better and gave better accuracy. If you think about the therory of soft bullets bumping up to seal a barrel you can see its flaws. You wouldnt smack a rifle bullet with a hammer before you sent it down the barrel. What you want is a bullet to exit your barrel exactly the same every time. Correct things like chamber sizes that arent correct and barrel constrictions. Size your bullets properly for your gun and use a good lube and you wont have to worry about accuracy. If there wrong you will have leading eventually no matter what alloy you choose.

[irold]

Lloyd ,   You suggested 15-16 grains of 2400 , you referring to using it with my 275 grainers ??  As I had stated I'm using 20 grains now , but I have no chrony.........there is no signs of high pressure...nor leading.   In your opinion , am I OK with the 20 grains ?  I had tried 18.5 to start , then 19 and ended up at 20...I'm shooting it in a SRH 454.  My SRH seemed to like the 20 gr. of 2400 best.  As far as recoil , I have some 265 grain Buffalo Bore,  seems I'm still under the recoil of the Buff Bore.  Seems kinda primitive , but that's the only way I have of comparing loads.  I just couldn't find much load data with a 275 lead. and 2400 powder.  Thanks IROLD