Author Topic: Why no 25/08??  (Read 5602 times)

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Offline saltydog

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2008, 02:41:50 PM »
As pointed out, a .25-08 would be basically the same as a 257 Roberts. The 25 caliber cartridges are caught between effective 6 mm and 7 mm offerings. In the 80's and early 90's 25 caliber commercial cartridges were limited in terms of high performance bullets. Reloaders could always load Coreloks or Nosler's for deer size game but the 7 mm REM Mag was coming on line and stole the thunder (interest) in 25 caliber cartridges - which left slim pickings to the 25:06 REM and the 257 Weatherby.   

Offline onesonek

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2008, 03:04:14 PM »
The 308 case came from the 300 savage case some say .
how can a .270 be a .284 ?

Not nitpick'n or being sarcastic here, mostly on the second point. But in the first, that whole host of cartridges with a casehead of .469" (basic), more or less have the 30-06 as a parent case. Some may argue the 7 or 8X57mm case would be , and they would be correct to a point.
 I think what Lone Star was driving at and I often  have fun with in hunting camps is,,,,, the .270 and .284 are both 7 mm's. It al boils down to nomenclature and whether you name something from the bore or groove diameter. The nominal dia. of 7mm is .276, The .270 Winchester basically uses a 7 mm bullet with a .270 bore. The .284 and a host of other 7mm's use a .276/7mm bore with a.284 groove.
This is a fun topic  in the camp after a couple hot totties, good for an hour of rhetoric and laughter ;D

Dave

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2008, 06:13:24 PM »
I've come to the conclusion that one of two things sells cartridges to americans; muzzle velocity and foot lbs energy! If the 25-08 or 25 Soper gave 1 fps less velocity than the 25-06, it would go away. The only reason the 25-06 wasn't displaced by the 257 weatherby is the cost of the weatherby.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Golfswithwolves

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2008, 09:45:26 AM »
truth is anything from 300 win mag down to 243 will do what a 25-08 would do !
:o Now you've gone and done it! Just because it's true, are you trying to get folks to stop worrying about miniscule differences in cartridge performance? Think man, what would happen to all the gun writers and magazines if everybody thought like you do. And shooters would simply get ONE rifle only in 7X57 or .308 or .270 or 30-06 and use it happily for everything. Where would be the fun in that? No, we should go on proclaiming to the world that the Emperor really IS wearing clothes, and keep on debating the merits of the .243 Winchester vs. the 6mm. Remington. Anyway, all that experimentation with various loads must turn up some new facts (and probably does little harm).  :)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 06:33:34 AM »
Sir you are right , what was i thinking ? It won't happen anymore !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Autorim

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2008, 03:40:59 PM »
The .257 Roberts is one of my favorite calibers - especially in the 26 inch bbl. Ruger No. 1. Far from being in the grave. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned, but other favorites are the .222 Rem and .270 Win. For big bullets, I like the 45-70. All of these cartridges have been around for quite a spell and have a long record of field success. Yes, the .243 is a good cartridge. I shot one for 30 years or so - finally shot the barrel out and had a Wiseman 7mm-08 installed. IMHO the .257 with a 125 grain Nosler Partition or any bonded bullet is superior.

Offline FW Conch

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2008, 12:30:06 PM »
I have seen a 25-307 Improved built into a Contender via a "stub" job. The targets indicated it was a very tight shooter !   ;)
Jim

Offline Mike Pearson

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2009, 06:46:57 AM »
Salty Dog, that's about the size of it! Somewhere earlier in the thread,someone mentioned .250-3000. A .25/.308 can do more than that for sure. The late, great gunwriter, Bob Hagel, did an article on the .25/.308. His had a 22" barrel and showed him with a nice size black bear. I remember that his 100gr. loads were about 100fps or so off those of a .25-06 Remington. Hagel tended to load fairly hot loads as I recall but the notes he had indicated no undue/high pressures. He favored the Nosler Partion 100gr. bullet (the black bear had no objections to it either). My guess is that, loaded to it's safe, full capacity, the .25/.308 would have essentially the same ballistic relationship that the .308 has with the ole .30-06. The problem for the .25 on the '08 case is that it's NOT a military cartridge. The .308 is a great cartridge but who knows how it would be been received in the fifties if it had NOT been a military cartridge first. Being a military cartridge ensure longevity in the civilian market. In the case of the .308, I believe that an argument (i.e. rationalization, justification, selling-point) was made in that it was a "short-action" cartridge and that shorter, lighter, faster rechambering rifles could be made. Honestly, prior to 1955, how many hunters and shooters really thought that they were being "deprived" with the longer case of .30-06 or .270??? When you take into consideration that these are generally thought of as "all-around" rifles with applications for western open-range hunting as well as eastern brush closer ranges, then the point is all the more clear (at least the way I see it) that the short-action benefits were, as much as anything, to sell a cartridge that couldn't quite match up to it's nearest (and beloved) rival, the .30-06. Did it work? Yes, partially because people bought into the ligher, more compact aspect of things (even though the differences are pretty small all things considered) and partially because the .308 was and is a really great cartridge on it's own merits. So how does this relate to the .25/.308??? It does in the sense that the kind of hunting that most would do with a big .25 (or even a medium .25) would not be such that a person would begrudge a longer action and a 22" or even a 24" barrel. Yes, the .243 IS a big seller and always has been but the '08 case makes some sense there because the more efficient fat case could be used with a .24 bore without being too over-bored. The public would be treated to a very low-recoiling rifle that would serve for both deer and varmints. The varmint bullets could be pushed at some really fancy speeds (and we know how the public loves speed) AND the public would have a totally new caliber NUMBER to play with in their imaginations. In 1955, we had the .250-3000 and the .257 Roberts. Bringing out another .25 that would have been in essence a fairly hot Roberts would NOT have captured the public's imagination. A .24 was something they did not have and the .308 was an ideal case for it in many ways.
Even though we have WAY more 7mm's and .30's than we really need, I think the market would reject a .25/.308. Be nice to see some manufacturer give it a whirl though! --- Mike

Offline .30-06 Guy

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2009, 08:03:47 AM »
The .25-08 and the .257 Roberts are both great cartridges. I have decided to go one a tad bigger- a .25-284 on a KAR 98 action. A 24" light-med contour barrel and a fairly light synthetic stock should keep it handy in a tree stand. It should have the power and range to take deer and such out to 300+ yards.

Offline catkiller

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2009, 01:26:49 PM »
 What I don't understand is how did the .243 ever get more popular than the 6mm rem,when they were both out at the same time?Go figure!
" A woman's breast is the hardest rock the almighty ever put on this earth and I can find no sign on it!"_ Will Geer (Bearclaw Chris Lapp) from Jeremiah Johnson.[/quote]

Offline Lone Star

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2009, 06:58:13 AM »
That story is well known.   Winchester chambered their .243 in the sexy M70 and envisioned it as a dual purpose varmint-deer cartridge.  They used a 10" twist and loaded 100 grain bullets.

Remington on the other hand saw the .244 (the 6mm's original name) as a varmint cargridge and used a slower 12" twist and a 90-grain bullet tops.  They also chambered it in the butt-ugly M722 rifle. Hunters chose the .243 because:

The M70 was a much more attractive rifle
The 100-grain bullet was seen as a better deer bullet
Trying to load 100-grain bullets in the .244 often gave poor accuracy
The .243 was marketed as a game cartridge, and in the 1950s there were a LOT more game hunters than varmint hunters.

Remington realized their mistake and re-named the .244 the 6mm Remington, tightened up the twist rate and loaded 100-grain bullets.  But the damage was done...

Interestingly, O'Connor reported that Winchester was originally considering a .25-08 instead of the .243, but when they heard that Remington was bringing out the .244 they changed direction at the last minute and went with the .243 instead.  So I guess you can blame Remington for the lack of a .25-08!



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Offline shooter444002

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Re: Why no 25/08??
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2009, 05:46:23 AM »
Now that I have Hybrid 100v my 257 is all I need with a 100gr bt at 3225. It goes well with my new savage 16 in 250savage where I am getting 2900 but I like old boring calibers myself.