Why no 25/08??

[Elkoholic]

So - both the 30-06 and 308 have spawned alot of other great
rounds.  But yet, not much has ever been done with a 25 caliber
308 round.  (You can buy the wildcat reamer, but again, you
just don't seem to hear much about it)  WHY??   

[CyberSniper]

For that matter, the newer short and super short magnums seem to be most popular
in .270, 7mm, and .30 calibers. The .25 caliber does not seem to be nearly as popular.
I conclude that .25 caliber rounds are not all that popular with too many people.
As to why, I have no idea, unless the .25 caliber fans are satisfied with the .25-06,
.257 Roberts, etc....
The .250 Savage faded after the .243 came out also.
Then too, the .260 Remington ( 6.5 - 08 ) does not seem to be too much
of a commercial success either.
Not that there's anything wrong with any of the above either.
 

[flintlock]

Heck, if Winchester hadn't come out with it in .243 in 1955 what in the world would we have to bicker about today??? 

At that time the Roberts and the .250 Savage were still pretty popular, most hunters found out that the .243 would preform about the same on deer sized game and shot a little flatter, especially with lighter bullets for smaller critters...

[WyoStillhunter]

There is one!  It's a wildcat called the .25 Souper.  Wayne Van Zwoll writes about it in his book, DEER RIFLES & CARTRIDGES (Stoeger Publishing Company, copyright 2005 Woods N' Water Press, ISBN-13: 978-0-88317-348-0), Chapter 9, Deer Loads to Love, pp. 149 - 152.  This book should be easy to purchase via WWW or at such stores as Barnes and NOble, Hastings, Borders, etc.

The .25 Souper is a .308 necked to .25 -- that's it.  Van Zwoll finds that forming brass is easier starting with .243 cases.  He reports that the Souper outperforms the .257 Roberts but falls a little shy of the Roberts AI and the .25-06.  He has an extensive table of loads, MV and accuracy results.  He gives it high praise as a deer cartridge which is efficient, effective, and easy to shoot accurately.

BTW, this is an excellent book.  IMHO Van Zwoll is one of the few professional gun writers who incorporates common sense into his technical analysis of firearms, ammo, optics, etc.

[davem270win]

Between the 250 Savage, 25-35, 257 Bob, 25-06, 257 Weatherby, 25 WSSM, there really isn't room for a 25-08. The 26-08 (260 Remington) hasn't exactly sold like hotcakes, either. If people want a light kicker, they'll buy a 243.

[CyberSniper]

6.5mm fans probably just go to the 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser. ( I did )

[Lone Star]

The .260 Remington precludes the need for a factory .25 Souper.  While I am a great fan of the .25s and own half a dozen - there is only 0.007" of difference in the bullet diameter between the two.  With bullets of 120 grains and down, the .260 will slightly outperform the .25 Souper.  My current .260 is in a M700 VLS and shoots the 100-grain BTips very well at over 3300 fps (26" barrel).  Any real-world difference between a 0.257" and 0.264" 100-grain BallisticTip bullet launched between 3100-3200 fps is in the imagination of the beholder.....

BTW I form my .260 cases from 7-08 brass.  The necks end up a bit thicker than .243 cases and have better concentricity without turning than using .308 brass.  All are easier to find than .260 brass.


.

[yooper77]

Between my 243 Winchester & 7mm-08 Remington, there isn't a reason for the 260 Remington.  I once found a nice pile of once fired 260 Rem brass at a public range and turned them into 243 Winchester.  I use 308 Winchester to make my 7mm-08 Remington.

Making a rifle into 25-08 would be easy and worthwhile if you want it.  Simply buy a 243 Winchester and have it rebored to .257 caliber.  Die manufactures will make custom dies for you also. 

The quarter bore is a very popular caliber; these bullets are hard to keep on the shelves in my area.

I currently reload 30-30 Winchester brass into 25-35 Winchester and 300 H&H Magnum brass into 257 Weatherby Magnum.

yooper77

[SHOOTALL]

257 roberts ?

[mcwoodduck]

     257 Roberts is a 7X57 case necked to 25 caliber.  I think a 25-08 would just have duoplicated the 257 roberts that was real popular just after WWII and into the early 60's but faded when the 243 came out.   With the powders of the time it would not have added anything to the 257 Roberts ( 308 is 51mm long case).   Now, it could be souped up quite a bit and possibly exceed 25-06 like the 260 is exceeding 6.5X55 in factory loadings, but like anything case capacity is the route to speed and any of the older rounds can be pushed faster in modern actions.         
     The 250 Savage was originally called the 250-3000 as it was one of the first to hit the magic 3000FPS.  The case is just .1 inches shorter than the 308 case and agian not much could be added by the extra .1 of an inch all share the same basic case based on the 7X57.   I don't want to hear about the 357 and 44 Mag being .1 inches longer and how much more power they pack thant the special versions.  The same can be loaded in the special cases for the most part but may hurt weaker frames like the SAA.  With a modern action and handloading the 250 Savage can do anything that the 25-308 could do and the 257 Roberts has the added advantage of being able to fit in either a standard action or short American action or any of the 98's with out any modifications. 
     Winchester came out with a 25 WSSM that douplicates the 25-06 + and I have a friend that swears by it as a mule deer rifle.  He also swears by 257 Weatherby as his elk rifle.
     What has suprised me, has been the lack of a 270 version of the 308.  But I guess the 125 load in the 308 douplicated the 270. 
     Maybe with all the standard and special loadings that the 308 offers there was not a need for just smaller holes.  I think the 7-08 is proof of that.  It douplicates 7X57 and has never been really popular and the number of factory loadings shows it.

[Lone Star]

What has suprised me, has been the lack of a 270 version of the 308....

The 7-08 is a .270-08 - just with a bullet that is 0.007" larger.  The .270 Redding is the .270-08.

...the 250 Savage can do anything that the 25-308 could do...

Unless someone has found a way around the laws of physics, this is simply not accurate if we are talking about velocity. The .25-08 has much more case capacity than the .250 Savage does - 18% more  in fact.  A .25-08 obtains notably higher velocities than the .250 Savage does when loaded to the same pressures - it cannot be otherwise.



.

[SHOOTALL]

The 308 case came from the 300 savage case some say .
how can a .270 be a .284 ?

[mcwoodduck]

It's the new math.  Let me guess your not sure what the lines inbetween the number are for on your ruler or tape measure.  By your same logic 257 and 284 are the same and they already have it.  What's .027 of an inch anyway?
 
  I looked up 300 Savage in Cartridges of the World after reading  his post and the 308 case is slightly larger on the inside as the 300 savage has a a shorter over all length and has a small diameter at the shoulder.  What has me befuddled is the 250 savage is a different  critter and only shares the rim of the .473 that the others share so yes the 25-308 would have move volume and there for more steam.  So I will conceede that point.  257 Roberts as I said before does have a larger case and more could be had out of it by hand loading.  With a 100 grain bullet your lookig at 3,000 Fps for the 257 Roberts and 2820 for the 250 Savage, and 243 thows a 100 grain bullet 2960 fps.   I think 25-08 would just douplicate the 243 with a slightly wider bullet untill you get into the 117 and 120 grain bullets.  Then 260 would be a better choice if you want to stay in the short action 308 based case.  25 WSSM would be the better choice if you wanted to stay in the short action and increase speed.
If you think that  25-08 OR 258 if you go by what Winchester has done with the 358Win  is the answer to a question then build it.  I think it would be too close to the 257 Roberts to justify the expense of all the custom stuff.

[SHOOTALL]

no no ! i have a 25-06 and love it , just posted the 257bob because it was so close . as far as wssm can't see any advantage over the 25-06 rem . but who am I ? OH yea , COST of factory Ammo .

[Lone Star]

It's the new math...

No, it's called being realistic, unlike the hair-splitters here.      Like I stated - but no one apparently read - the only difference between the two is a paultry 2% (0.007") in bullet diameter.     Anyone who has ever used the two cartridges knows that whatever the .280 Remington will do the .270 Winchester will do just as well.   With modern bullets the small differences in SD and BC are meaningless in the field.   

It appears to me that the new math demonstrated above means that 0.027" = 0.007", a 23% difference in bullet cross sectional area.  Most school children wouldn't make that mistake.  




.

[iiranger]

Actually you are showing your "youth and inexperience." Way back when the .308 was new, Warren Page, competitor and noted gun writer/editor did just that. Necked the .308 to .257. Called it the Page Super Pooper or something silly and it got shortened to .25 Souper. Been in the die lists for decades. As has been indicated, the competition is/was fierce. .250 Savage to .25/'06. And about this time the new kid was the 6mm/.308 better known as the .243 Winchester. So it languishes, but it is there and has been there for a long, long time. Warren is gone many decades but his novel experiment lives on. .257 Bob was loaded to old standard, 45K CUP, thus the much later +P loads. .250 savage was never +p'd. .25 Souper would have come out at the new standard, 55K CUP but with the drum beaters pushing the "new!!!" (.243) just didn't get going. Oh welllll.

[SHOOTALL]

truth is anything from 300 win mag down to 243 will do what a 25-08 would do !

[poncaguy]

A lot of long range shooters are switching to the 260 Remington............I have 2 and like them very much. My 2 25-06  are good rifles also. I do wish they had made a 25 WSM instead of the WSSM. My 270 and 300 WSM's are 2 of my most accurate rifles.........

[mcwoodduck]

Lone Star,
I was just being a wise as$.  I understand that there is very lillte difference between any of the Deer hunting or big game hunting rounds.  Most of the deer rounds came from late 1800 military ctgs and those were played with up and down to see if a more effective round could be made.  A deer hit would not know the difference between a 30-30 and a 7-30 waters or 35-30 for that matter.
Wildcatting a round is just an effort to either increase speed by getting a lighter round into a case, getting a longer bullet ( increase the SD using the same bullet weight) by reducing bullet diameter or in necking up decrease recoil with the same bullet weight in a heavy for caliber bullet or get a heavier bullet into a given action.  Or it is done to get rid of a bunch of bullets they had laying around.
Hey if we only had one what fun would that be?
OK, ammo would be cheaper as the makers would only have to churn out three or four bullet designs and one case, primer, & powder.   But it would be like playing golf only two clubs.   And I would only have two big game rifles.  One Scoped and one open sighted rather than the 7 I do for the different game and terrain.
Imagine the arguments between the pick up guys if there were only one maker and model of pick up rather than 5 makers and 50+ models.
"No blue is better!"

[saltydog]

Why no 25 - 08 - well let's see : 1. there is the .260 REM; 2. there is the .243 WIN; 3. if you have to have a mid performance 25 caliber the is the 257 Roberts and 4. why - when the 260 REM is barely hanging on in hunting circles and the .257 Roberts is in the grave ?

[bilmac]

I hear this argument over and over again when we talk about calibers. It's surprising how impassioned these arguments are.


The 300 Savage is just a bit more powerful than a 30-30. A 308 is just a bit more powerful than a 300 savage. An 06 is just a bit more powerful than a 308. A 300 H&H is just a bit more powerful than an 06. A 300 win mag is just a bit more powerful than a 300H&H, so actuslly there isn't much difference between a 30-30 and a 300 win.

[SHOOTALL]

bilmac, guess that depends on just how close each is to the target ?
and bullet size and shape ?
but you have something !

[bilmac]

I always wanted a 25 souper never got around to it. When the 260 came out I thought oh boy I won't have to go the wildcat route, but I haven't got around to buying one of those either. Reason I like the idea of both is plentiful 308 brass. I used to make 243s from 308, had to ream them but 25 or 26 should work that much better.

But now I have a prairie dog shooter and a 6mm to shoot meat critters at long range and a 30-30 and 45-70 to shoot them close, and a 270 for as big and tough as critters as I'm going to shoot. So how much chiep brass do I need. It would probably only shoot a box of bullets a year. 

[Guy Pike]

mcwooduck: I have played in several 2 club golf tournaments and it is a hoot! The top players in the area were not far from their normal scores either. That said, my Dad owned two rifles in his life. A Marlin model 88 22lr. and a Marlin model 1892 custom in 30-30. Everything from moose to partridge were taken from these NH woods with those two rifles. Guess he wasn't smart enough to know he needed an arsenal!

[mcwoodduck]

Guy Pike,
     My father like yours only has one Big game rifle and only reciently did he get a 22 LR.  But like your father he only hunts in the same place.  He bought his rifle for hunting in upstate New York and he hunts deer in the woods.  The little 22 just came into place when he gave up big game hunting and moved to NC where we have many bushy tails.  Will one gun do it all?  Sure.  There have been many people that have written articles on .308 Win as the do all be all one round for North America.  From hand loads of 60 grain 32 acp bullets at slow speeds for small game to 180 grain round nose for moose or elk.  Now, I on the other hand hunt in a few different places and I think I want a few different specialized rifle rigs for the game.  A Leatherman is a great multi tool that is good for many jobs, but one designed to do the task will work better every time.  The up side to the Leatherman is it is easier to carry with you than cary a whole tool chest.
My open sighted 308 that I bought to hunt deer in the woods of up state NY is a good rifle for that task but it is not as good at mule deer in Montana.  I have a second 308 with a 3-9 scope on it that allows me to make the 200+ yard shots across open ground as well as having a rifle for hogs here in CA.  Shot a 159-170 pound boar at 120 yards.  I know I could have just mounted a scope on the open sighted rifle but then I would have lost the sights and the mounts that allow you to look under the scope never allow you to get a really good check weld and the rifle is not as accurate as it needs to be for longer shots.
I also bought a rifle as an elk rifle.  The rifle had to have enough power for elk and be able to carry that power to 300 yards with acceptable bullet drop so I did not have to do Ky windage to hit the animal.  Would my 308 kill elk.  Yep!  But at 300 yards I would have to hold over the animal and guess that I would hit the vitals.  I am not willing to do this and want to make a clean kill.
I would like to get another rifle for plains game that is a little lighter and has a plastic stock for an Antelope hunt I would like to go on, my scoped 308 is a heavy barreled rifle.  After talking to friends of mine this weekend while around the camp fire hog hunting my 9.5 rifle that is perfect for deer is going to be really heavy when walking miles to catch up to antelope.
My point being if you only hunt in one place you only need one or two clubs.  Yes there are times to challange your self and see what you can do.  Games are perfect for this.  Would you play with only 2 clubs against me for $1,500 and I get to use my full set?  probably not, and when I spend $1,500 on an elk & deer or other trip for game,  I am going to look at the gun safe as my golf bag and pick the rifle that is best for the shot.

[Coyote Hunter]

257 Roberts
.26-06
.260 Remington

Who needs a .25 Souper (.25-08)?

My Ruger Roberts is easily my favorite rifle.

[onesonek]

I hear this argument over and over again when we talk about calibers. It's surprising how impassioned these arguments are.


The 300 Savage is just a bit more powerful than a 30-30. A 308 is just a bit more powerful than a 300 savage. An 06 is just a bit more powerful than a 308. A 300 H&H is just a bit more powerful than an 06. A 300 win mag is just a bit more powerful than a 300H&H, so actuslly there isn't much difference between a 30-30 and a 300 win.

But, but, thats a whole 5 bits worth

Dave

[john keyes]

For about 10 or more years I had assumed that the .260 rem was a .257/08.   

Then I bought one and bought the dies and components.   

[RWK]

Is there any one here that can chamber a 25 souper.

[SHOOTALL]

onesonek, I agree , that is if bullet weight , bullet shape and bullet speed don't much matter . Guess in the end it depends on your hunting skill as to how close you can get to the critter with your 30-30 !