What are folks thinking?

[longcaribiner]

I was at the range last evening shooting my 45 heavy bench gun.   At the table next door was a gent with an in-line.  I didn't even pay attention to what kind.  He was putting four huge pellets of some powder into this gun and some fancy hollow point bullet.  I moved to a table yet further away.  When he fired it, there was a huge ball of fire that lit up the range.  He was barely keeping on the paper at 100 yds.  And constantly saying well that is going to hurt.  When we went down to the check targets, he saw my group, 8 holes in a two inch circle. (two flyers)    He asked about my load.  Told him 65 grains of 3fg and a patched round ball.  Oh he says that's nothing, I am shooting 200 grains and a 285 something or other.    After another 15 shots or so, he asked my to watch and evaluate why his accuracy is so bad.  He was flinching badly, I guess from the recoil.   I explained that if those were 50 grain pellets, to try shooting with just one per shot until he is used to it.    He did and his next 5 shot group was just under 5 inches.    I suggested he shoot no more than 80 grains and he should be fine for any east coast game including bear.  Where did he get the idea for 200 grains?  Well the book says 150, so if 150 is good, 200 must be better.......     

[Redhawk1]

He might of had a Ultimate muzzleloader, they are rated for 200 gr. of Pyrodex. http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/

[30-06man]

He might of had a Ultimate muzzleloader, they are rated for 200 gr. of Pyrodex. http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/

I hope that's what he had. He is on a dangerous road and most ML's will not handle anything above 3 pellets(150 grains) or 120 grains of loose 777.

[kevthebassman]

Some people just aren't too bright.   

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Ahhh the magnum shooters.  Aint they funny to watch? Gotta love it even more when they look up at you and have a big cut right between their eyes from the scope 

[kevthebassman]

I mean really, how much do these clown expect to be able to do with their muzzleloader?  Is that 4th preformed pellet even going to burn in a the typical 24-26 inch barrel?  Is it really going to to turn your muzzleloader into a super-duper killing machine?

Ok, so you've got your 300 yard muzzleloader!  Now, how often do you shoot 300 yards with it?  How often do you shoot 300 yards with anything?!?!

Even with a scoped centerfire, I don't take shots much past 100 yards.  Not because I don't have that far to shoot.... I hunt over huge bean fields in a river bottom.... but because an easier shot will present it's self.  I'm not much of a trophy hunter, mostly just out there for meat and fun.  I don't feel handicapped shooting a percussion gun with bore sized conical, or even a flinter with patched round ball. 

But then, I may just be crazy.

[30-06man]

I mean really, how much do these clown expect to be able to do with their muzzleloader?  Is that 4th preformed pellet even going to burn in a the typical 24-26 inch barrel?  Is it really going to to turn your muzzleloader into a super-duper killing machine?

Ok, so you've got your 300 yard muzzleloader!  Now, how often do you shoot 300 yards with it?  How often do you shoot 300 yards with anything?!?!

Even with a scoped centerfire, I don't take shots much past 100 yards.  Not because I don't have that far to shoot.... I hunt over huge bean fields in a river bottom.... but because an easier shot will present it's self.  I'm not much of a trophy hunter, mostly just out there for meat and fun.  I don't feel handicapped shooting a percussion gun with bore sized conical, or even a flinter with patched round ball. 

But then, I may just be crazy.

It may start burning but its still stupid. The drop of the 300 grain bullet will still be so much that 300 yards is pushing it majorly. I can see using 150 grains but 200 is just about dumb and is a waste of a 4th pellet..

[NONYA]

Ahhh the magnum shooters.  Aint they funny to watch? Gotta love it even more when they look up at you and have a big cut right between their eyes from the scope 

KINDA like bigblock guys,they think that monster motor makes em a bigger man,love to see em come limping back down the strip with a rod hanging out the block.

[Redhawk1]

Ahhh the magnum shooters.  Aint they funny to watch? Gotta love it even more when they look up at you and have a big cut right between their eyes from the scope 

Just because someone likes a hot muzzleloader or for that matter a magnum anything, does not mean they don't know how to use them. Don't lump everyone in one group.
There are guys with scope eye from lighter loads also, has to do more with proper shooting technique and equipment. JMHO.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Ahhh the magnum shooters.  Aint they funny to watch? Gotta love it even more when they look up at you and have a big cut right between their eyes from the scope 

KINDA like bigblock guys,they think that monster motor makes em a bigger man,love to see em come limping back down the strip with a rod hanging out the block.

its dat torque baby!!

Havent done that is a few years.  Damn gas prices.

Then again, the little ricer 4 bangers that come limpin back with a blow rod, can be the same thing to happen.  Or a blown muffler bearing

[alsaqr]

Ok, so you've got your 300 yard muzzleloader!  Now, how often do you shoot 300 yards with it?  How often do you shoot 300 yards with anything?!?!

Kev, the thing about it is that the guy does not have a 300 yard muzzleloader.  He just thinks that he does and is crazy enough to buy into all that cheap hype about four and five pellets.  Despite the 5" groups at 100 yards, this guy will take a crack at a deer at 300 yards because he paid at least $1,500 for that gun and he just knows he can pull it off. 

One of the makers of these super guns claims he can get 2,300 fps with four pellets and 2,900 fps with five pellets  and a 300 grain bullet.  He claims that the secret is in his patented breech plug. 

With two Pyrodex pellets and a 250 grain SST, my 26" barreled CVA gives just over 1,700 fps.  With three pellets the velocity climbs to 1,945 fps:   The law of diminishing returns is in effect here. 


In the 2005 Gun Digest, Toby Bridges tested four pellets in a Savage smokeless muzzleloader:
1.   Three pellets and the 250 grain XTP gave 1,955 fps. 
2.   Four pellets and the 250 grain XTP gave 1,930 fps.  Note that the velocity went down.   
3.   Recoil was so bad with four pellets that five pellets were not tested. 


 

[kevthebassman]

None of it sounds very appealing to me.  I've got centerfire rifles if I want to push something to 2900 fps.  90 grains of goex and a .530 patched round ball are all the muzzleloader I need.

[NONYA]

Sounds likes he needed a longer barrel,4 pellets would produce more fps with the proper barrel length.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Sounds likes he needed a longer barrel,4 pellets would produce more fps with the proper barrel length.

Exactly. He needed something like THIS!

51 1/4" 

[NONYA]

That should do the trick

[kevthebassman]

Sounds likes he needed a longer barrel,4 pellets would produce more fps with the proper barrel length.

Exactly. He needed something like THIS!

51 1/4" 

What is that sucker?  Wall gun of some sort?  I need details man!

[longcaribiner]

If you fellas ever get east to Maryland's Eatern shore, some of the museums have punt guns on display, giant two or three bore shotguns 7 or 8 feet long that were used when hunters could commercially hunt waterfowl on the Chesapeake bay.   They'd quietly float up to a flock on the water and throw rocks, chain, nuts and bolts and anything else at the flock. There are humorous stories about guys buying a punt gun and any old dry rotted skiff, having the gun  backed up to the transome, only to have the butt of the gun go through when the guns goes off and the boat sinks.     

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Its a  .54cal flintlock African Trade Rifle.  Great shooting Smooth Bore!

[kevthebassman]

Good looking gun.  How long is that barrel?

[john keyes]

I think that fourth pellet acts as a tracer round.


God forbid, I won't even shoot three pellets.

[Busta]

Ok, so you've got your 300 yard muzzleloader!  Now, how often do you shoot 300 yards with it?  How often do you shoot 300 yards with anything?!?!

Kev, the thing about it is that the guy does not have a 300 yard muzzleloader.  He just thinks that he does and is crazy enough to buy into all that cheap hype about four and five pellets.  Despite the 5" groups at 100 yards, this guy will take a crack at a deer at 300 yards because he paid at least $1,500 for that gun and he just knows he can pull it off. 

One of the makers of these super guns claims he can get 2,300 fps with four pellets and 2,900 fps with five pellets  and a 300 grain bullet.  He claims that the secret is in his patented breech plug. 

With two Pyrodex pellets and a 250 grain SST, my 26" barreled CVA gives just over 1,700 fps.  With three pellets the velocity climbs to 1,945 fps:   The law of diminishing returns is in effect here. 


In the 2005 Gun Digest, Toby Bridges tested four pellets in a Savage smokeless muzzleloader:
1.   Three pellets and the 250 grain XTP gave 1,955 fps. 
2.   Four pellets and the 250 grain XTP gave 1,930 fps.  Note that the velocity went down.   
3.   Recoil was so bad with four pellets that five pellets were not tested. 


 

Let me say that first of all, I don't own an Ultimate and am not affiliated with them in any way. I first seen one of these over 10 years ago, they have done some changes to the platforms, stocks, and cosmetics over the years. One thing they have not changed is their patented breech plug, they nailed that in their original design. The breech plug IS the secret to the whole design, make no mistake about that.

I was skeptical of the claims years ago until I actually seen exactly how it works with the .45 case, Large Rifle MAGNUM Primer, and how it all fits together with the patented breech plug that quite frankly is like nothing else out there. The LRM Primer is 10 times hotter (temperature wise) than a 209 primer. So many people have been mislead into thinking the 209 primer is the hottest primer, it only creates more pressure and carbon build up. The breech plug has a internal snout/nipple that extends all the way into the flame channel of the .45 case while also encompassing the external walls of the case. This gives the LRM Primer a direct path into the holes of the pellets, while totally sealing out any blowback. Even the inside of the case does not get any fouling, as the .45 case is just a carrier for the primer. This ignition is without a doubt the most efficient ignition ever encorporated into a muzzleloader. This allows the pellets to all ignite at exactly the same time, a controlled detonation might be one way to describe it.

You cannot even compare a Savage, or any other 209 muzzleloader using pellets to the ultimate. The 209 primer starts the burn at one end of the column of pellets, and cannot be compared to the ignition of the Ultimate. The only thing that MIGHT come close these days would be the Bad Bull, a smokless muzzleloader that uses a LRM Primer that has to be seated in the plug with a special tool, then knocked out with a decapping pin on the end of your ramrod after firing. The only ways to deprime a Bad Bull is to shoot out the load then deprime, or pull the load over a live primer, NO WAY. The Ultimate allows you to just drop a primed .45 case in and close the bolt, primed. It can be deprimed by simply opening the bolt an extracting the primed .45 case. I have seen them shot through chronographs, and at distances up to 300 yards. In the right hands they can be very accurate, just like any other rifle can be very accurate in the right hands. Some people will not ever be able to hit the broad side of a barn, no matter the rifle or load.

There are two kinds of people when it comes to the Ultimate, those that have seen and understand it, and those that haven't.

I am very curious to see how it will do with the new Blackhorn 209 powder, but I won't comment on that until I see it first.

[vabowhntr]

I, too, have seen the Ultimate and it stands up to its name.  The Savage w/ smokless might be able to match it, but with BP or subs it is the best I have seen.  I hunted with a group of guys in IL that had them and they shot some fantastic groups out to 300 yards with them.  Of course these guys were fanatical about accuracy and knew what they were doing.  I would not have expected a deer within a 500 yard diameter circle to be safe from them.  Cleanup was very easy and the recoil didn't look too bad.  That being said, I still wouldn't buy one for the price.  I never seem to get a shot over 50 yards where I hunt and my Omega does just fine. 

[AndyHass]

I was at the range last evening shooting my 45 heavy bench gun.   At the table next door was a gent with an in-line.  I didn't even pay attention to what kind.  He was putting four huge pellets of some powder into this gun and some fancy hollow point bullet.  I moved to a table yet further away.  When he fired it, there was a huge ball of fire that lit up the range.  He was barely keeping on the paper at 100 yds.  And constantly saying well that is going to hurt.  When we went down to the check targets, he saw my group, 8 holes in a two inch circle. (two flyers)    He asked about my load.  Told him 65 grains of 3fg and a patched round ball.  Oh he says that's nothing, I am shooting 200 grains and a 285 something or other.    After another 15 shots or so, he asked my to watch and evaluate why his accuracy is so bad.  He was flinching badly, I guess from the recoil.   I explained that if those were 50 grain pellets, to try shooting with just one per shot until he is used to it.    He did and his next 5 shot group was just under 5 inches.    I suggested he shoot no more than 80 grains and he should be fine for any east coast game including bear.  Where did he get the idea for 200 grains?  Well the book says 150, so if 150 is good, 200 must be better.......     

Is your implication that he is an idiot for shooting 200 grains, or are you implying more by saying it was an inline that "you didn't even pay attention what kind" and a "fancy hollow point bullet"?  Clearly the guy is a moron for shooting 200 grains in anything but an Ultimate, but this appears another veiled swipe at inlines and those that shoot them as well.  There is a big difference between a moron who doesn't know how to shoot and control flinch and anyone who happens to shoot the very same gun.

I shoot 110gr under a 200gr bullet and get sub-MOA accuracy.  I have a 400yd range in my backyard, and I shoot my inline out that far all the time -- groups are around 4 inches at 400 yards with no wind, and 5-6 inches if I have to guess the wind.

I'd shoot a little more powder to further flatten trajectory if it were accurate, but it is not.  It's stilll a lot less recoil than my 300WM.

[longcaribiner]

Andy, the guy clearly had no clue what he was doing.  I have a couple in-lines.  One made in the early 1970's by a gun smith in Annapolis, MD.  it uses No 11 caps and has a sealed ignition and a false muzzle. 

Not at all meant as a swipe at in-lines.  Although there are too many folks who buy a made in Kurdistan in line and think they can stuff the barrel full of pellets.  The book gives a max load of 150, why is he putting 200 in it?  Because he is an idiot!   You're right that I didn't pay any attention to it.  It could have been an old CVA Appollo that hadn't just yet turned to shrapnel. 

First of all, there is little reason for anyone (who knows what they are doing) to begin sighting their gun at 100 yds with 200 grains.   

(kind of like the fellow that has a misfire and immediately looks down the barrel to find out if he can see the bullet.)   

BTW, sub MOA accuracy with just a 200 grain bullet is nearly impossible for any gun.  generally such a short bullet becomes highly unstable beyond 175 yard and starts to yawl and tumble.    Congratulations on figuring how to beat the Greenhill formula.     

[Redhawk1]

BTW, sub MOA accuracy with just a 200 grain bullet is nearly impossible for any gun.  generally such a short bullet becomes highly unstable beyond 175 yard and starts to yawl and tumble.    Congratulations on figuring how to beat the Greenhill formula.     

Wow, I guess I better quit shooting my 195 gr. Precision bullets then, I am getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards with them all day long. At 200 yards I am still at MOA.
I guess my gun just does not know it's not supposed to shoot like that. I will take it to my gunsmith and have it checked out.  I will tell him my gun is not supposed to shoot MOA at 100 yards, and see if he can bend the barrel to make it shot 3 inch groups.

Thanks for the heads up.

[john keyes]

Hey Redhawk, that site for the ultimate is very interesting. thanks

[Redhawk1]

Hey Redhawk, that site for the ultimate is very interesting. thanks

I almost bought one, but went with the Savage smokeless instead.

[longcaribiner]

Red hawk, Andy said he was getting MOA at 400 yards. 

Now I also may have mistakenly assumed that his in-line was a 45 or 50 caliber.  It would certainly be more likely to be able to hold such groups with a 200 grain bullet in perhaps a 375 or 40 caliber rifle., but then again, there would be no need for so much powder. (200 grains.)     

Such light bullets, as a 50- caliber 200 grain bullet are simply too light to buck air resistance efficiently.   Just before and during the civil war there were huge advances in long range shooting, rifling and ballistics.  Experimenters all over the western world were tinkering with methods to reliably shoot muzzleloaders out to 1,000 yds.   For 140 years, the only thing that really worked was a long heavy bullet and a moderate powder charge.    They even experimented with placing the percussion nipple where it would ignite the middle of the charge column to try to get more oomph out of a charge.

Even assuming that some fancy breech plug can cause detonation of the powder, that only increases the muzzle velocity.  After the bullet leaves the barrel, everything the old timers discovered about ballistics remains exactly the same.     Light bullets lose their energy faster than heavier bullets due to air resistance.  A slowing bullet starts to yawl and pitch losing stability.       At a given velocity, bullet shape, and bullet weight, the laws of physics remain the same, whether fired from a side lock, in-line or cartridge gun.

I have seen guys shoot clover leafs at 300 yards with underhammer bench guns that had 48 inch barrels and weighed 70 lbs.  They have been doing it for 50 years up at Blue Mountain Muzzleloader Club near Shartlesville PA. 

I have no doubt that MOA can be accomplished with a round ball at 100 yards because I have done it, with open sights. (When my eyes were better and they were 5 shot groups.)      Harry Pope considered  ten shots as a group.       

Can MOA be done at 400 yards with a .50 200 grain bullet, odds are yes, with an incredibly syzygean stroke of luck of ageless proportions.   Can it be done reliably, day after day, shot after shot, hardly.

[Redhawk1]

longcaribiner, my max shooting has been to 200 yards. That is where I feel comfortable with my M/L set up.

If I am shooting to 300 or 400 yards, my 300 Win Mag would get the call. 

[AndyHass]

Andy, the guy clearly had no clue what he was doing.  I have a couple in-lines.  One made in the early 1970's by a gun smith in Annapolis, MD.  it uses No 11 caps and has a sealed ignition and a false muzzle. 

Not at all meant as a swipe at in-lines.  Although there are too many folks who buy a made in Kurdistan in line and think they can stuff the barrel full of pellets.  The book gives a max load of 150, why is he putting 200 in it?  Because he is an idiot!   You're right that I didn't pay any attention to it.  It could have been an old CVA Appollo that hadn't just yet turned to shrapnel. 

First of all, there is little reason for anyone (who knows what they are doing) to begin sighting their gun at 100 yds with 200 grains.   

(kind of like the fellow that has a misfire and immediately looks down the barrel to find out if he can see the bullet.)   

BTW, sub MOA accuracy with just a 200 grain bullet is nearly impossible for any gun.  generally such a short bullet becomes highly unstable beyond 175 yard and starts to yawl and tumble.    Congratulations on figuring how to beat the Greenhill formula.     

Glad I misunderstood your tone

A 200 grain Shockwave is .40cal in a .50cal sabot -- it is plenty long for its diameter to stabilize.  No physics shinanigans required.