.356 Winchester versus .358 Winchester ..... ?

[Couger]

There's been discussion about shooting the .358 Winnie in the HandiRifle, but is there any advantage to instead choosing the .30-30 rimmed .356 Winchester?

The .356 Winchester has nearly the same case capacity as the .358W, and operates at the same 52K CUP SAAMI spec,





BUT WHICH CARTRIDGE WOULD YOU CHOOSE?  Whether you reloaded your own fodder, or did not?

[Sweetwater]

Fun stuff...
Remember, this is MY opinion.....that is my disclaimer! LOL

The weapon of choice would rule the selection. I have no experience with a Handirifle, but believe it to be a break action single shot; so far so good? If there was an advantage to having a rimmed case, the 356Win being a semi-rimmed case, I may opt for the 356Win. If not, I would choose the 358Win, UNLESS I particularly wanted a 356Win. Both cartridges are available though not always easy to find. As factory rounds, the 358 has a slightly longer COAL, therefore, a slighty larger case capacity, therefore slightly higher performance. Measurable? Yes. Observable on game? I sincerely doubt it. As handloads, I for sure can duplicate factory 358 performance in my 356Win, though admittedly, would probably be running a touch higher pressure. Pure physics. This I do not need and do not load 'above the book' per se. The 358 is no hotrod and it's ballistics are not hard to duplicate and they use the same dies.
I have a Winchester BIG BORE 94 in 356Win that I dearly love, BUT...I still hanker for a Browing BLR 358Win...just because.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[azmike]

I'd choose the .358, for the following reasons:

While the cases are similar size, the .358 has slightly more case capacity, and ballistics are better.  Can always safely load down to .356 level without pressure problems.  Personally, I don't care about this point, but for those who want to wring maximum velocity out of their rifle, it would matter.

The .356 case is actually a .358 size case head with a semi-rim, not a 30-30 size case.  Specialized case size, with ammo and cases harder to find, makes the .356 less attractive TO ME, unless I were offered a smoking deal on one in a lever action.

If you can't find ammo or cases for reloading for a .358, use .308 or 7mm-08 brass.  Can't do that with a .356, unless you have a supply of the (equally uncommon) .307 Winchester brass.

In a nutshell, for me it boils down to ammunition and brass availability, especially the latter.  As far a field performance goes, I doubt that there is a practical difference, other than on paper.

YMMV   

[Sweetwater]

Hmmm, actually brass availability is not an issue here, as a semi-rimmed case is NOT necessary to function in the Winchester Big Bore model 94 version of the 356Win. I have used 308's necked up to 356 and they function exactly like the factory 356 case, and they will mix and match in the magazine without issue. I have even trimmed to length some 8mm mauser brass and necked to 356 without any issues.
So, again, it becomes 'how nit-picky' do you want to be on paper vs. what do you really want. What you hunt will not know the difference and neither will your weapon of choice....unless...you are taking this to extreme ranges where a spitzer might gain trajectory over the flatpoint enough to make some accuracy difference. No animal I hunt would ever know the difference.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[azmike]

Thanks for the the info on case function.  I stand corrected. 

I agree completely that there being little to no practical difference in field performance.   

Regards,

Mike

[NFG]

Jeezzzz...don't get this VS "stuff" started again...that comparison has been thrashed to death.  There is plenty of information on both cases on this site, many of the Levergun sites...actually almost every site I have visited...just do a search.  ALL the questions have been answered plus some I could never conceive of.

In a nutshell...

They are IDENTICAL volume cases...loaded to IDENICAL PRESSURE...can be used interchangeably...I can shoot a 356 Win in my bolt gun and I can shoot a 358 Win in my lever gun all without a hitch, but that is just plain...mindless to the max... and as long as you load 2 up in a tubular mag you won't have a problem in a lever gun using pointy bullets.  356 cases are available most of the time at Cabelas or have been everytime I needed any or happen to look them up, but you can use 358 W brass in a levergun any time you want, or ANY of the 308 family of cases.

AND both of them kill ANYTHING I happen to shoot at...as long as I'm close enough.  If you have either, just enjoy them and stay away from comparisons.  Think what a/your wife would do to you if you started comparing her to someone else...do that to your rifles and they will do it to you.

'Njoy

[Graybeard]

I guess I don't understand why you're calling the .356 Winchester a "semi rimmed" case as there is a clear rim to it. In fact as best as I recall it takes the same shell holder as the rimmed .444 Marlin case and is the same over all size but shorter in length. In a pinch you can use .444 Marlin cases to make your .307 and .356 Winchester brass from and just shorten them.

If maximum performance ie., velocity is the desired goal you'd not want to use the .308/.358 case to begin with but rather the .30-06/.35 Whelen instead.

Some single shot actions work just fine with rimless cases (at least most of the time) but I do personally prefer rimmed cases in all single shots really I do. I think the .356 Winchester would be an excellent choice for an NEF.

[azmike]

Sorry, trying to be technically correct.  Got the term "semi rimmed" from Speer reloading Manual's description of the .356 case.  Yes, the rim is obvious on my buddy's .356.   

 

Regards,

mike

[GPR125]

Since both are basically a .308 Winchester case necked out to .35 caliber, how could there be any ballistic difference?  The .356 has a rim and the .358 is rimless.  Shouldn't the question be whether the rim has any advantage for the H&R shell removal system?   Basically a short case .35 Whelen.  As case length doesn't effect the H&R rifle design, what is the advantage?  Except for many the big bears, the .35 will take on anything walking in the northern hemi.   Thumpers in light rifles are great to carry, but can bite at both ends.

[wtroger]

Dimensionally they are the same except for the rim diameter. My dies say 356/358 winchester just use a different shell holder.

[Couger]

Thanks [most] everyone for your posts!  Some were quite lively.  Most were very good.

I've not seen any "comparison" discussions between the .356W and .358W.

Does a rimmed .35 Whelen exist? 

Or even a rimmed .30/06?



I'm not aware of either such cartridge.  Which surprises me!

[db22]

Rimmed ought-six? I remember reference to a 7.62x63R cartridge in some article on European rifles. That would be ought-six with a rim, I guess.

As far as a rimmed .35 Whelen . . . when Winchester brought out their smokeless cartridges for the old 1895 lever gun, there was a .35 WCF cartridge that would fill the bill perfectly. I have an old Lyman bullet mould for the round: 245 grain round-nose. The rim size matched the .30-40 Krag case, and you could probably make cases from .30-40, though they'd be too short to function in a lever-action. Should work just fine in a single-shot. I often thought that would be a perfect mid-bore round for hunting in North America, in a strong action with good cases.

[Couger]

In the mid-late 1970's Remington offered .308 Bench Rest brass (with a small primer pocket) for making several rounds that Remington didn't offer specific brass (like the 7mm BR or its smaller 6.5 or 6mm siblings), or factory ammo.

If someone offered similar brass for the .30/06 with a rim, I'd grab up a supply of that imaginary brass rapidly!



Like the dies that reload the .356/.358 Winnies with using different shell holders, no doubt standard .35 Whelen dies would work quite well too.



I'm not interested in many wildcats - certainly not anything made off of the .444Mar.



Thanks DB22.  Do you remember any more about that article on the European 7.62X63 rimmed?

[Graybeard]

The .358 JDJ is the .444 Marlin case necked to .358" and has a case capacity about midway between the Whelen and the .358/.356 Winchester. It's probably a little more than half way toward the Whelen but is a bit less in capacity. Good sound tested data is available for it. I was able to push 225 grain bullets to 2300 fps easily with mine in a 14" barrel so from a full length rifle barrel I'm sure you could get within 50 fps or so of full Whelen velocity with it and have a rim for those rifles in which a rim is desireable.

SSK will not chamber Handi rifles but plenty of other companies out there do a .358/444 that is close but not identical to it. Some might even duplicate it I dunno. Were I wanting a rimmed .35 for a single shot of any type that would be the one I'd chose. It might even work in a lever rifle.

[NFG]

I'm not sure where the "semi-rimmed" came from either, with respect to the 356 and the 220 Swift, other than the rim is smaller in diameter than a "rimmed" case rim is.

The 356 W calls for a 0.496/0.506" dia rim, just slightly over the 0.470" base dia, and the 444 M calls for a 0.514" dia rim.  While I was playing with my 356 and contemplating doing a 375 JDJ, I trimmed some 444M cases to 2.00" and ran them through the 375 JDJ and then a 356 W seater then sizer die and made some 356 W/444 Marlin rounds...they worked as well as all the other cases I tested and would be a good choice if ejection becames a problem with 356 W cases.  I think the 444 M is heavier in the wall and base thickness compared to the 308 case and I know the 356 W case has thicker walls and base compared to the 308 case.

I  had it in the back of my mind to do a "short" 375 JDJ for the 336 M platform due to the longer length associated with the 375 cal bullets in the JDJ rounds.  I put that aside as the work involved wouldn't be worth the small amount of additional performance over the 375 W or 38-55.  Wish the 336/1895 action was as long as the 1886's.  There is always the 45-70 and 450 M cases to neck down and get some pretty impressive ballistics if you like wildcating.

'Njoy

[db22]

Couger -- I Googled 7.62x63R, and came up with a reference on a Finnish benchrest board, but that's it. IIRC, the article was in the American Rifleman, many years ago, and explained the naming systems used for ammunition (.30-'06= .30 caliber, model of 1906, 7.62x63R= 7.62mm caliber, case 63mm in length, R/rimmed).

That .35/444 Marlin wildcat that Mr. Graybeard mentioned sure does sound like a good round. Why do .33 and .35 caliber rifle cartridges appear, get good reviews in the shooting press, and then drop back to cult items? I bet the .338 Federal is headed that way. I suppose it's because we have the .30-'06, and too many good rifles chambered for it, and ammo available everywhere. It's hard to argue with the ought-six -- I've had three, and there has never been a time in all my years of shooting when I didn't have one.

[Tencubed]

Good stuff in this thread.

The old 35 Winchester that was mentioned would make an excellent round to "improve" via the Ackley method.  Should make for one whale of a rimmed wildcat.

That same case, or the 30-40 case, was used by a Mr Wade years ago to make the "Lever Power" line of cartridges.  One of them was the "35 Lever Power".  He reduced the diameter of the rim and shortened the case to allow it to function in the Model 94 Winchester and the short Marlin actions.  With the fairly straight case and sharp shoulder of the design he bettered the velocities of the 35 Remington by two to three hundred FPS.  This case could also be made from the 303 British round.  May be just what NFG is looking for.

As I recall it was just a bit faster than the 358 Winchester so I suspect the full length case as an improved would be something to consider.  Course in the Handi there would be no need to turn down the rim.

I do recall an article years ago about a 375 round that was made up on a 45-120 case.  Seems it was quite a beast and I don't know as how very much was ever done with it.  Maybe someone recalls more about that experiment.  Don't see why the 45-70 and up cases couldn't be used as basis for a number of good, bad or useless wildcats or kittens.

Mike

[NFG]

Tencubed...I was just experimenting on different cases to bury some of the "old wives tales" about which and what presently available cases could be used to form "356 Win cartridges" that could be used in a Marlin 336 levergun...for myself mainly.  I've been at this wildcatting for a long time and have seem some pretty strange things pop up.

There probably isn't a case anywhere that hasn't been morphed in some way, actually or in someones fertile mind. 

I think the English have the patents on long large caliber rimmed cartridges for use in "Drillling" type rifles. 

There is a very nice 375/450 Marlin wildcat right now I would like to do something with, in a bolt, lever or SS, a 35, 375 and 416 "WSM" and "RUM" and the 45-70 has been necked down to 9.3, 375, 416 and I believe 40 cal (not certain).   A 45-120 necked to 9.3, 375, 416 etc., would put it in the same capacity family as the 2.85" magnum cases...somewhere around 110-115 gr H2O.  I sometimes wish I could start all over again as there are so many fun things to do.

Problem with these large calibers is the recoil gets to be a BIG problem with anything over about 1500 f/s and 500 grains even in 15 lb rifles.  My NEF BC weighs 13 lbs and cranking off a few 525 at 1500 to 1800 f/s is awe inspiring to say the least...I don't even want to think about some of the old English 600 plus cal with 1000 gr bullets in a 9 lb double...think what the average 50 cal BMG in that weight rifle shoulder fired would do to you.....I get all the S/M I want touching of some of my 12 GA FH loads in my Rem 870...I got a couple that produce over 100 ft/lb recoil and I shoot those from the hip...with gloves and held as tight as I can...just for the experience, you see...     

Experimentation is the heart and soul of innovation as it should be.

'Njoy

[Tencubed]

NFG

Like you I sometimes wish I had had the resources to play with various wildcats when I was younger.  I've done a bit of this kind of thing, mostly with high velocity stuff, but find myself shooting the wildcats less and less anymore.  The big bores seem to hold a fascination for me now and, at my age, the recoil does get to be a problem.  The various 450 Magnums in the heavy rifles aren't that bad but some of the lighter rifles do back up a bit.  The little TC with a 16" barrel at just over four pounds that I carry on my quad is a prime example.  Mostly I shoot really reduced loads or 410 shot shells when I encounter a rattler.  Heavy loads are kept handy and in the chamber at night when in bear country.  Between the slug, blast and flame it's bound to have some effect.

I agree it would be difficult to find virgin ground to plow when it comes to making a "new" cartridge.  One may be able to have a different rim or shoulder angle but even the short magnums that are being sold are old stuff to the wildcatters.  Shell shape may be slightly different but the basics are the same, just legitimized and selling new rifles.  The public is catching up with the past.

What has changed, and it will take awhile for things to catch up, is the availability of all the new powders.  I'm impressed by what is happening in this area of reloading.  The different burning rates and pressure peaks are waking up a lot of older rounds and bringing out unexpected performance.  Maybe the time for center of case ignition and some of the old stuff has finally come.  Who knows, with these new powders it may be possible to control the pressure spikes and waste less energy moving powder down the bore as well as smooth out the recoil.  There's so much more to this game than blowing out or necking down a case as you well know.

Good luck on getting people to get rid of preconceived notions of what can and can not be done when it comes to forming cases for various calibers.  For some what it says in the most recent tomb is the only way it may be done.

Mike

[db22]

The reason I always liked the .35-caliber, is that the .357"-.358" bore seems to be a perfect diameter for a cast-bullet deer cartridge. A 200 to 250 grain gas-checked .358" cast bullet pushed along at a moderately quick speed has plenty of oomph at close range, and retains it better downrange than a larger bore, unless you are willing to push a really heavy .40 or .45 caliber bullet to a similar speed. Then you end up with that old bugaboo, a flinch. At least, I do.

The .35 Remington is a perfect case for this use, and the various .35/.30-30 wildcats meet the criteria as well. The old .35 WCF and the .35 Whelen would be at the top end of this category, and the .357 Maximum is at the bottom. My .357 Max Handi is a real mild rifle to shoot. NEF seems to have only two barrel contours for center-fire rifles (except for bull barrels), and .35 calibers are made in the heavier contour, giving the rifle a somewhat muzzle-heavy balance, and very mild recoil. That much extra steel would be quite welcome, however, in a Handi chambered for .35 Whelen, .35 WCF, or even .356 or .358 Win.

A Handi with a 24" barrel, chambered in .35 WCF, equipped with good-quality open sights, perhaps a quarter-rib rear sight base that also serves at a scope mount, fitted with a classic black walnut stock, simple checkering . . . some talented amateur gunsmith could make a fine deer gun from a plain old Handi, while snowed in over-winter.

[Sweetwater]

Db22- Over a snowed in winter, you probably could make a real talented work out of that fairly plain starting project. A bunch of years ago, I got hurt right at the beginning of hunting season and was laid up for about 8 weeks. This was a time when I learned how I might and might not refinish some old rifle stocks. Time was there to fix any blunders and still come out with a neat job. I made the only stock I've ever tried - it went on my Mom's single shot 16ga Stevens, circa 1943. Her dad gave it to her on her 16th birthday - and my first wife wrapped it around the kitchen table in a fit of rage. I got the new butt stock made before my mom saw what had happened. My dad makes rifle stocks and has always shied away from doing shotguns - too much detailed fitting for him. Any way , they were both quite impressed with what I had  made, and neither noticed my repaired blunder -  I had cut a pistol grip too deeply and went into the hole drilled for the bolt that fastens the stock to the action. I had plenty of sawdust from the stock forming and made some plastic wood, filled the 'blunder' and reshaped the pistol grip area. No one has ever pointed it out.
Build that rifle, by all means!

When I used to pour over my Dad's old loading manuals from Lyman and Speer back in the late '50's, I was always drawn to the 35WCF. Dad said it looked like a panatella cigar, and I said it looked like it could really smoke something! LOL  Love my 356Win, BUT my 40-82WCF holds a stonger fascination for me. It's that cigar thing, I think.
I'm prepping to build a 35Whelen for probably the same reason - I want to. It will simply duplicate other rifles I already have, but it's a 35, and LONG! Smoke that, I say! Hmm, maybe I should Ackley Improve it in the process. It for sure will be handloaded.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[db22]

Sweetwater -- .40-82, hmmm. I had to take a look through my cartridge collection . . . I know I had a big Winchester .40 . . . nope, it's a .40-72, one of the late blackpowder catridges developed, I think, for Mr. Browning's M1895. The example I have is a later smokeless loading, Peters brand.

So -- what kind of rifle do you have that chambers .40-82? Is it a single-shot?

I did the same darn thing with a Handi stock, that you did with your mother's Stevens -- sanded clean through to the bolt hole while making a more-defined shape for my left hand (being a southpaw, I like to customize my gunstocks for left-handed use. When a right-hander shoulders one, it gives him some idea what it's like to be a lefty in a right-handed world). I ended up patching it with a small piece of cotton fabric, saturated with carpenter's glue. After it dried, I sanded and stained it. It doesn't look too bad. Currently, it is fitted to my Versa-Pack frame, and will see use in the squirrel woods this coming fall.

It will be interesting to see the .35 Whelen you build. I wish you good luck with it, and hope it turns out to be a great rifle.

[quickdtoo]

This is getting off topic, but here's some info on the 40-82 from AmmoGuide.

The .40-82 Winchester was first produced in 1885 for the Winchester Single-Shot and later chambered in the legendary Model 1886 lever-action.

As a popular chambering in these successful rifles, the round was eventually converted to use smokeless powder and remained on the market until 1935.

While groove diameter is .408", for some reason, the bullets used in original factory ammunition spanned only .406" diameter. These weighed 260 grains and exited the muzzle at 1490 fps. http://ammoguide.com/?catid=374

Coincidentally, the 405 Winchester has identical case capacity at 73gr water. http://ammoguide.com/?catid=46

If anyone is into "cigar" rounds, the 45-120-3¼" Sharps Straight is one to consider, it makes the 405 and 40-82 look ordinary! 

Tim

[Sweetwater]

Tim - As always, great stuff there...that 45-120 is for sure a qualified cigar round!!

Db22 - My 40-82WCF is in an '86Win mfg 1887. Probably not a real collector, it's been trimmed on both ends and wears a shotgun buttpad. Full octagon barrel and mag cut back to 20inches long before I got it, full buckhorn sight and lots of 'character marks'. The barrel is also marked "Browning Bros. Ogden U T" - I have a lot of fun with it and it is worn enough to chamber the cast bullets I use in my 41mag. It sits in the rack between my great-grandfather's '73Win 38WCF and my grandfather's '94Win 32WSPCL.

The question was raised how the 358 could have more performance than the 356 when the cases had the same capacity. The answer lies in the cartridge overall length (coal). The 356 coal is a full 1/4inch shorter than the 358 coal as loaded by the factories, due to the rifles they for which they were designed. Handloads for a single-shot would not see any difference in performance IF coal was held the same for both cartridges.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[njanear]

Rimmed ought-six? I remember reference to a 7.62x63R cartridge in some article on European rifles. That would be ought-six with a rim, I guess.

Those Metric rounds are a little trickier than that.   

For example, if a .308 is 'almost' a 7.62x51mm, then what would you think the popular 7.62x51mmR would be?     

Why, the .30/30 Winchester, of course. 

[Sweetwater]

Getting back to the topic....limiting it all to a handirifle foundation....I don't know if a rimmed case in this rifle has any particular advantage...never saw a real advantage with a rimmed case in my TC Contender years ago...it just seemed to belong there, sort of like keeping traditions. Based on that...my choice stays with the 356Win....Going beyond that limitation, I'm finding that the 35WCF has quite an attraction for me, again for maintaining the rimmed tradition in the single-shot. Betting it would perform!

Great posts!


Regards,
Sweetwater

[NFG]

Sweetwater...You made the very good point of the COAL of the two cartridges is different, PLUS the 356 W was designed for a LEVERGUN and 52,000 CUP.  The pressure of the RIFLE has to be considered along with what can and cannot be done to a cartridge case.  I can crank the pressure up on a bolt gun much higher than what a lever gun can handle so even though I can use several different cases to make or to use in a 356 W I still can't go overpressure nor attain the velocity of the 358 W.

For anyone doing this wildcatting thing...you should keep uppermost in your mind that you load for the PRESSURE PARAMETERS OF THE RIFLE RECEIVER...NOT THE CALIBER OR THE CASE.

There is usually more to everything than what meets the causal eye.

You are all right...ANYTHING running over 3" is truely awesome to contemplate or look at.  I have some dummy 50 BMG, 20 MM and 30 MM rounds, (plus at one time a 5" 50 cal from my uncles destroyer's 5 " forward battery)... plus a 17 FB sitting alongside the 50 BMG just for comparisons.  Plus dummy 45-70, 45-90 and 45-120 side by side prominently displayed just to keep things in prospective.

Someday I would like to hold a 750 Gatling...it's slightly shorter than the 50 BMG but has a case capacity over 100 gr H2O more.  That would be a truely awesome cartridge for a shoulder fired weapon. 

'Njoy

[Sweetwater]

NFG - very good point about the pressure parameters of the receiver....truly agree on that point.

The basic function of the case is simply to hold the primer, powder, and bullet in position for ignition and lift-off. The receiver has to contain the pressure to deliver the goods to the barrel which has to deliver downrange. Simplified, yes, but in a nutshell, that's their respective relationships.

It's still the 356W over the 358W for my choice. In the Handirifle platform, they would be equals, it's simply the rimmed tradition.

I, too, have a 5" 50Cal on my trophy shelf above my loading bench. My late Uncle was a turret gunner in the Air Force. Never made it home from WWII. I'm named for him and that is one of my momentos. I was born after the war and have no living memory of him. Only what the family has shared with me.

Regards,
Sweetwater