Encore 209X50 Problems

[ricktile66]

I've had an Encore for nine years now and didn't realize just how bad it shot.  I can get good groups with one bullet (Barnes MZ sabot) and 150 gr of pyrodex.  I have to clean after every shot just to get the next sabot down the barrel because they are so tight.  Nothing else groups in this gun and believe me I have tried every possible bullet/powder combination.  I got a new Green Mountain barrel last week for my flintlock and now it shoots better with every load I have tried than any load in my Encore.  If a flintlock with open sights shoots better than an in-line with a scope there is definitely a problem.  I want to be able to shoot an easier loading sabot with less powder in my Encore.  I was thinking about chopping off the QLA and having a new crown cut or buying a new barrel.  Anyone have any suggestions?

[Redhawk1]

Sounds like the QLA might just be the problem, it is was cut wrong it can off set you bullet making for poor accuracy.  I would say you are on the right track by getting it removed.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

I'd drop the powder charge.

[encore3006]

 

[Semisane]

I think there are darn few muzzle loaders out there that shoot well with 150 grains of powder.  You say you have tried every possible bullet/powder combination so I assume you've dropped down to 90 grains or so and tried that with both Pyrodex and Triple Seven.  If not, that's what I would try first.  Also, if you're shooting a flintlock you must have some GOEX or other real black powder on hand.  In my Lyman Mustang GOEX groups very very well.

Removing the QLA might be the way to go.  I've never had a QLA gun, but the reports I've read seem to indicate the QLA is not so great with conicals, but does not have an adverse effect with sabots.  If that's true the QLA may not be your problem.

I've firelapped several guns and have had positive results every time (and amazingly good results on one).  I used the Beartooth method.  You may want to try that.

                                http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/48

[Redhawk1]

Like he said, he tried all different powder charges, powders and bullets. Just dropping the charge is not going to make a difference. Some times there are Encore barrels that the QLA was cut off center. 

[ricktile66]

I have tried Goex, Pyrodex, and 777.  Pellets and loose powder from 80 to 150 grains.  Also tried every sabot and conical I can get my hands on.  The only combination that shoots is 150 grains of pyrodex with Barnes MZ sabots.  It kicks like a mule and the sabots are hell to get down the barrel but it shoots well.  Personally, I prefer black powder in my muzzleloaders.  I don't like the crud ring from the substitutes and the black is cheaper and readily available where I live.  Seems like my only option is to cut the end of the barrel off and hope removing the QLA and re-crowning the barrel will make it shoot.  If that doesn't work I will just use it for a tomato stake and take my flintlock during the in-line season too.  Since the flintlock shoots better it wouldn't be a disadvantage anyway.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Might be easier to send that barrel back to TC, get their replacement and then sell it and put the barrel towards www.BergaraBarrels.com
After that, you'll be able to shoot sabots/conicals.  Biggest downfall on a TC is their barrel.

[Redhawk1]

Might be easier to send that barrel back to TC, get their replacement and then sell it and put the barrel towards www.BergaraBarrels.com
After that, you'll be able to shoot sabots/conicals.  Biggest downfall on a TC is their barrel.

Sorry but I disagree with that. T/C makes some fine barrels in my opinion, I have owned 6 Encore M/L barrels and they all shot great and never had a problem with the QLA.

[kyelkhunter3006]

All of the T/C's I've shot offered more than enough accuracy to suit me.  My old Omega would shoot 3/4" 3 shot groups with the 250gr Shockwave and 120gr of 777 FFFg.  That was the first and last load I tried, I figured it would do for deer hunting.     My Black Diamond would shoot 3 shot groups under 2" with just about anything I tried in it.  My hunting buddy has older Black Diamond that he still hunts with that will shoot 3 shot groups that are 2" or less at 100 yds.  I've had 4 Encores and the accuracy was good with all of the barrels I tried except for one .223 heavy barrel that just wouldn't shoot worth a dime.  I've had barrels from .223 through 7mm Rem Mag, and a couple of .50 ml barrels too.  Not all of them were MOA barrels, but all were accurate enough to do what I asked of them.

[12ptdroptine]

Have you called T/C ?  They might be of some help... I would ask if I could send it to them to be checked out. I have an Encore that shoots well with either 100 gr of 777 or 110gr of Pyrodex.... I run a wet patch down it and then a dry between shots... With a sst 250 gr... I have no problem shooting under an inch 3 shot group @ 100 yds. The crud ring may be from using to hot of a primer. They now have some developed just for in lind mzl loader..Give them a try... Good Luck

[AndyHass]

Have you tried getting looser sabots from MMP or Harvestor?

If you've tried so many things I'd send the barrel to T/C and ask for a replacement.  I have had good luck with their barrels, MOA accuracy in both of my Omegas up to around 110-115gr 777.

777 is impossible with 209s, you can either fork over the money for a 25ACP conversion or make one yourself by drilling out your breech plug on a lathe or drill press w/a vise.  I have both and both work well.

I do not see why YOU should pay to cut the QLA off the barrel if that really is the problem, when T/C should make it right (and likely will).  This is NOT a systemic problem with the QLA, I know lots of guys with T/C QLA-equipped barrels and while some maintain accuracy to higher charges than others all are capable of 1-1.5 MOA accuracy.

[30-06man]

Sorry but I disagree with that. T/C makes some fine barrels in my opinion, I have owned 6 Encore M/L barrels and they all shot great and never had a problem with the QLA.

I have to agree.

Have you tried powerbelts with loads of T7 under 90 grains that normally will shoot almost MOA out of anything. I would call TC if you can't get anything else to work after this as has been said.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Direct from TC,
Dear Jon,
The reason you don't see anyone shooting conical is because the Omega
and Triumph were designed for Saboted bullets only. You can use
conical
but you will not get any accuracy at all. We recommend Saboted bullets
for the Omega and Triumph. Have a nice day.. Dianne, Customer Service

Now there are quite a number of people who get by with powerbelts, but its nice to have a rifle that will shoot a wide variety of conicals. Especially for someone like me who has to shoot conicals during muzzleloading season.

[mirage1988]

I have had good luck with the superglide sabots from TC with 300 grain shockwaves over 130 grains of 777 pellets in my encore. After three years of trying powerbelts, sabertooths and others I figured maybe the company that makes the gun might have an idea on a bullet that works good in it. As scopes aren't legal to hunt with in Minn. I don't know how good my gun REALLY shoots but I get 2.5 to 2.75 inch groups at 100 yards with open sights (williams peep sight rear). Wish I could get my nikon powered 7mm mag BAR boss thunderstick to shoot that well (for sale by the way). Also make sure your fore-end isn't contacting your barrel-check by sliding a piece of paper between the barrel and the grip, it should go all the way to the first lug. I had to put a washer between the barrel lugs and the grip so mine wouldn't touch and it really helped the accuracy. Check the clearance everytime you take the forearm off. Good luck.I hope that helps.

[c1c9]

I had problem with groups on my Encore M/L.  These are the steps I took to improve it:

1.  Installed a oversized hinge pin.     http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php
2.  Cut the QLA off and recrowned the barrel.
3.  Hand lapped the barrel.
4.  Use T/C 250g Shockwave Super Glide Bullets.

Each step improved the accuracy. 

Now it shoots 110 grains of BlackMag 3 with 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards using a 3x9 Leupold and M/L 209 primers.



 

[DennyRoark]

It's easy to check the concentricuty of the QLA...just measure the thickness of the barrel with a set of dial or vernier calipers in 4 spots 90 degrees apart.  Should be exactly the same!  Note that I have had 2 Omega X7's.  Guess why the first one was replaced...T/C has had some problems with these not being bored perfectly in the past.

[DennyRoark]

Should have read concentricity!

[Huntsman1]

I shoot a 250gr SST with a Harvester Easy Load Premium sabot and 120grs loose FFG Triple 7.
I get excellent accuracy out to 180yds with this set up out of my SS 209x50 Encore.
I also recently installed an over-sized hinge pin, hammer spring and trigger spring made by Bellm.
I've had absolutly no problemos with the QLA on mine.

[trophyhunter]

Might be easier to send that barrel back to TC, get their replacement and then sell it and put the barrel towards www.BergaraBarrels.com
After that, you'll be able to shoot sabots/conicals.  Biggest downfall on a TC is their barrel.

I could be wrong but arent these barrells from the same company that makes the cva and just pours the barrells.  They are made in spain and have no testing regulations for them.  I have read some bad things about the barrells.

[ricktile66]

Thanks for all the ideas.  Looks like I don't need to cut off the QLA now.  I have it shooting 2" groups with the TC shockwave superglide sabots.  I have to thouroughly clean after every shot and lube with break free but at least it is easy to load them.  My second shot may not be as accurate when the barrel is dirty but should be good enough to get the job done.  I really liked the Barnes MZ sabots because they shot very well and dropped deer in their tracks but they aren't cheap and there was no way to get it past the crud ring for a second shot without at least running a spit patch down the barrel.  Hopefully the TC's will drop deer as well as the Barnes.

[K.K]

They will!  I have used both, and though I am now using the Barnes, it's not because the TC Shockwaved dissapointed. They are a great bullet.

[Lawful Larry]

Thanks for all the ideas.  Looks like I don't need to cut off the QLA now.  I have it shooting 2" groups with the TC shockwave superglide sabots.  I have to thouroughly clean after every shot and lube with break free but at least it is easy to load them.  My second shot may not be as accurate when the barrel is dirty but should be good enough to get the job done.  I really liked the Barnes MZ sabots because they shot very well and dropped deer in their tracks but they aren't cheap and there was no way to get it past the crud ring for a second shot without at least running a spit patch down the barrel.  Hopefully the TC's will drop deer as well as the Barnes.

I got tired of all  that tap dancing that you are doing.  I had a lot of problems with my Encore and finally found the solution, sell it and move on!  I did that and put three years of crap dealing with this piece of junk.  I now shoot a sidelock Hawkens carbine and will put it up against any ML out there!  It shoots sabots or conicals and differenct types of powders with lots of accuracy. 

If I don't stop talking about this nightmare, I will need more counseling.  And that is expensive.  Sorry.